Calling all Law Keepers.

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GodsGrace

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KBCid replied : "so you would have been still trying to sacrifice animals to cover your sins?"



I asked you a direct question "so you would have been still trying to sacrifice animals to cover your sins"? How does your reply answer that question?

You asserted that YOU were "in bondage to the law". Are you a Jew that has time jumped from the time of Christ? If YOU were not from that time and YOU are not a Jew then YOU were never under the law nor did YOU ever sacrifice one animal to cover your sins. So it is impossible for YOU to have ever been "seeking after my own righteousness" by the law.

The sacrificial laws were used by the Jews to justify their righteousness before God. Christ was sent to the Jews to tell them truths that the Jews did not understand AND he was also prophesied to expand the meaning of law. So Christ informed the Jews that their concept of trading acts of the law (sacrificing of animals) to cover their sins was not in fact actually covering them. Christ is the foretold sacrifice that would cover their sins but you have to be a doer of the expanded law from the heart. You could not gain the kingdom by simply following a set of rules that you did not do from the heart and soul.
Great point!
 

bbyrd009

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So it is impossible for YOU to have ever been "seeking after my own righteousness" by the law.
hmm. don't think so wadr
The sacrificial laws were used by the Jews to justify their righteousness before God.
just as we might rely on a rap sheet, or the absence of one, as an indicator of someone's "righteousness" today imo
 

bbyrd009

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Christ is the foretold sacrifice that would cover their sins but you have to be a doer of the expanded law from the heart. You could not gain the kingdom by simply following a set of rules that you did not do from the heart and soul.
amen, just as "no man may die for the sins of another."
 

KBCid

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hmm. don't think so wadr
just as we might rely on a rap sheet, or the absence of one, as an indicator of someone's "righteousness" today imo

You indeed can use your God given freedom to disagree.
As for the rap sheet analogy no. Jews made sacrifices to God for the purpose of covering both their own sins already past and the sins of their families and they believed that simply whacking some animals was enough to justify their admittance to the kingdom.
Christ was pointing this out to the Jews who he was sent to. It was not the acts of the law that justified one before God it was the faith that God was going to send a prophet like unto Moses who would take away forever the sins of the world.

Psalm 40:6Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 7Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me (Christ), 8I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law (what Law?) is within my heart.

Psalm 51:16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness....

1 Samuel 15:22
And Samuel said, “Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

Mark 12:33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings.

Now read this NT reference on the subject of animal sacrifice which Christ came to address;

Hebrews 10:1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’ ”
8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them”—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Look carefully at the law / laws that is being talked about if this was in reference to the 10 moral commandments then tell me how is "thou shalt not kill or thou shalt not covet a shadow of something coming? [The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming]

If there is no law there can be no sin and no need for this scripture;

Hebrews 10:26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

I will let Micah finish this thought;
Micah 6:6-8“With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high? Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?” He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?
 

ScottA

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Hi,
Your explanation of what is finished sounds a little jumbled.
I really, at the end of it, don't know what you mean.
Yes, just like the scriptures it is in fact the jumbling of what is true in the world, with what is true in the kingdom - which is completely different.
When Jesus said "It Is Finished" He meant that HIS work, that He was sent to do here on earth, was finished. There was nothing left for God to do for us --- It was completed. What God planned from the beginning of time, was done -- our sin debt was paid. Jesus freed us from our subjection to the enemy.

That's the easy explanation.
Being of the world and knowing only the world as it exists on a timeline of events, that is the perception. However, the greater truth does not exist on that worldly timeline...so that explanation is only so good, or really no good at all, if we seek first the kingdom as Jesus directed us to do. That which is of the world is worldly, and that which is of the kingdom is not.
But why would you believe me??
Here's a link from GotQuestions? that is very clear:

Question: "What did Jesus mean when He said, 'It is finished'?"

Answer: Of the last sayings of Christ on the cross, none is more important or more poignant than, “It is finished.” Found only in the Gospel of John, the Greek word translated “it is finished” is tetelestai, an accounting term that means “paid in full.” When Jesus uttered those words, He was declaring the debt owed to His Father was wiped away completely and forever. Not that Jesus wiped away any debt that He owed to the Father; rather, Jesus eliminated the debt owed by mankind—the debt of sin.

Just prior to His arrest by the Romans, Jesus prayed His last public prayer, asking the Father to glorify Him, just as Jesus had glorified the Father on earth, having “finished the work you have given me to do” (John 17:4). The work Jesus was sent to do was to “seek and save that which is lost” (Luke 19:10), to provide atonement for the sins of all who would ever believe in Him (Romans 3:23-25), and to reconcile sinful men to a holy God. “All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation” (2 Corinthians 5:18-19). None other but God in the flesh could accomplish such a task.

Also completed was the fulfillment of all Old Testament prophecies, symbols, and foreshadowings of the coming Messiah. From Genesis to Malachi, there are over 300 specific prophecies detailing the coming of the Anointed One, all fulfilled by Jesus. From the “seed” who would crush the serpent’s head (Genesis 3:15), to the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53, to the prediction of the “messenger” of the Lord (John the Baptist) who would “prepare the way” for the Messiah, all prophecies of Jesus’ life, ministry, and death were fulfilled and finished at the cross.

Although the redemption of mankind is the most important finished task, many other things were finished at the cross. The sufferings Jesus endured while on the earth, and especially in His last hours, were at last over. God’s will for Jesus was accomplished in His perfect obedience to the Father (John 5:30; 6:38). Most importantly, the power of sin and Satan was finished. No longer would mankind have to suffer the “flaming arrows of the evil one” (Ephesians 6:16). By raising the “shield of faith” in the One who completed the work of redemption and salvation, we can, by faith, live as new creations in Christ. Jesus’ finished work on the cross was the beginning of new life for all who were once “dead in trespasses and sins” but who are now made “alive with Christ” (Ephesians 2:1, 5).
Indeed, but like tongues, I have interpreted the truth from God.
 

GodsGrace

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Yes, just like the scriptures it is in fact the jumbling of what is true in the world, with what is true in the kingdom - which is completely different.
Being of the world and knowing only the world as it exists on a timeline of events, that is the perception. However, the greater truth does not exist on that worldly timeline...so that explanation is only so good, or really no good at all, if we seek first the kingdom as Jesus directed us to do. That which is of the world is worldly, and that which is of the kingdom is not.
Indeed, but like tongues, I have interpreted the truth from God.
Well then,
Christianity as accepted does not agree with you.
 

GodsGrace

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That may be true.

Would you care to paraphrase a few specifics for comment?
No I wouldn't Scott.
Here's why...
Jesus spoke and He made everything be very simple and easy to understand.

What you posted, twice, is not understandable to me.
When Jesus was dying He said 7 last sentences or "words" as they're called.

Each "word" had a specific meaning.
IT IS FINISHED has a specific meaning.
We can't make up our own meanings. I'm not saying yours doesn't agree even... I'm saying I don't really understand your pov.

I posted what IT IS FINISHED means. This is the accepted definition.
Maybe there could be a thread on it?
 
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Rollo Tamasi

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We know that we have had many threads on 'Law v Grace' and 'Faith v Works’ Including hundreds of posts on all of them.
We basically all know now where each other stands on these issues as we have all ready the numerous posts.

So here I just wish to ask in this Thread…not what you each believe, but for those of you who do believe that we are required by God to keep the law to tell us how you personally actually do that.

Please tell us how it works for in your every day life?

If you have been a Christian for many years believing this, then how has it been working for you?

*How much closer to perfection are you now than when you first believed?

What do you actually do to make perfection happen in your life?

How do you actually live this life daily?

And, if at the end of your life you still haven’t totally mastered all the commandments and even more so…if you haven’t loved God with every moment of your life, and actually love your neighbour as much as you love yourself, wife and family...what then?
What do you believe will happen to you then at the end of life?
Do you think you will go to hell because you failed?
If not, why not?

This is not placed in The Bible Study section…so a load of quoted scriptures won’t cut it.
We need the reality of how this works in actual life, not theory or scripture quotes, but how it is done.

This is a request for those who say we must keep the laws Old and New..to tell us how we are to actually do that? What do you tell your children?
Tell us what you have learned about how to get there in perfect law keeping…
Because after all these years I am better at lots of things than I was decades ago…but I am still a long way from perfection.

For years I'd just say:- We can’t do it in ourselves, but we do it “by the Spirit”…well years later I am no closer to perfection! I do not love much more that I used to!

I have forgotten who, but yesterday someone posted- “ God requires us to be perfect as He is perfect” We all know all the scriptures! Just saying them or quoting doesn't help the doing of it!

But, I believe that God required Israel to keep the law…they couldn’t and didn’t do it…hence the lambs of sacrifice for their sins and failings, and the blood of bulls and goats. A type of the perfect Sacrifice to come.

Jesus gave the two new commandments NT….this is what I would like to know…How is that working for you? How much better are you at it now..years later?

Not scriptures, but in your own real everyday life…from you heart...how is love really working?
How perfect is your love going to be when you are face to face with God?

Will you manage to perfectly perfect love in your life time…?

And what “if not”…then what? What do you think then?

I , and I’m sure some others, are listening here.
I believe this is something that should be talked about. We've had scripture after scripture after scripture in the threads...now lets hear the hearts speak.

Looking forward to many answers. :)
I once tried to follow the law.
My baptist upbringing told me I should.
Then one day I realized Jesus is a liberal.
After all, if he were conservative, then what are the Pharisees?
It gave me a whole new look on christianity.
So I became an outcast.
To all of them, I was a nut and not to be trusted.
And to me, they were the Law Keepers, and they had the power to force their laws upon me or tell me to leave the church.
Since they had the support of the pastor, that's what they did.

Calling all law keepers?
You are calling on the Pharisees or those that don't better.
 
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GodsGrace

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I once tried to follow the law.
My baptist upbringing told me I should.
Then one day I realized Jesus is a liberal.
After all, if he were conservative, then what are the Pharisees?
It gave me a whole new look on christianity.
So I became an outcast.
To all of them, I was a nut and not to be trusted.
And to me, they were the Law Keepers, and they had the power to force their laws upon me or tell me to leave the church.
Since they had the support of the pastor, that's what they did.

Calling all law keepers?
You are calling on the Pharisees or those that don't don't better.
What does it mean that you "tried to follow the law"?
Do you think we're NOT supposed to try to follow the law?
 

Rollo Tamasi

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What does it mean that you "tried to follow the law"?
Do you think we're NOT supposed to try to follow the law?
Trying to follow the law because God requires it.
Do you think you need to follow the Laws?
When was the last time you gave a burnt offering at the altar of the Temple of God to a Levite?
 

GodsGrace

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Trying to follow the law because God requires it.
Do you think you need to follow the Laws?
When was the last time you gave a burnt offering at the altar of the Temple of God to a Levite?
I guess you don't read my posts...
You'll be horrified, I'm sure.
God does require that we follow the law.
The commandments were in force 3,000 years ago and they still are today.
It was wrong to steal back then, and it's wrong to steal today.
So, yeah, I think I'm required to follow the law.
No burnt offerings.
Jesus was the last offering.
Is that what the law is to you?
The commandments are the law.
 
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ScottA

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No I wouldn't Scott.
Here's why...
Jesus spoke and He made everything be very simple and easy to understand.

What you posted, twice, is not understandable to me.
When Jesus was dying He said 7 last sentences or "words" as they're called.

Each "word" had a specific meaning.
IT IS FINISHED has a specific meaning.
We can't make up our own meanings. I'm not saying yours doesn't agree even... I'm saying I don't really understand your pov.

I posted what IT IS FINISHED means. This is the accepted definition.
Maybe there could be a thread on it?
We either get our clarity from the world, or we get it from God.

All world language was confused [by God] at the tower of Babel...and that is the world's view point. Conversely, Jesus Christ clarified that He is building His church by what is revealed by His Father in Heaven. That is the point of view which I have declared to you.
 

GodsGrace

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We either get our clarity from the world, or we get it from God.

All world language was confused [by God] at the tower of Babel...and that is the world's view point. Conversely, Jesus Christ clarified that He is building His church by what is revealed by His Father in Heaven. That is the point of view which I have declared to you.
Our clarity is from God.
But there's no babbling going on here.
Some scripture is easy to understand and has been studied and we know what it means. In some cases it cannot be understood with certainty.
I do rely on persons that have studied and understand the times of Jesus and how people spoke back then... how to link scripture so we could better know what is meant.

You seem not to agree with this method. Not everyone does...
 
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KBCid

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Trying to follow the law because God requires it.
Do you think you need to follow the Laws?
When was the last time you gave a burnt offering at the altar of the Temple of God to a Levite?

Do you in fact grasp the difference between sacrificial laws and the moral commandments? Your answer above implies that you do yet you stated that you once tried to obey the law as a Baptist.... do they sacrifice animals to God for their sins?
 

KBCid

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God does require that we follow the law. The commandments were in force 3,000 years ago and they still are today.
It was wrong to steal back then, and it's wrong to steal today.

Na ahhh.... according some "very good Christian" people we can steal all week and then just go ask for forgiveness on the first day of the week and we are covered because Jesus loves us and he fulfilled the requirements of "the law" and we can't sin anymore.... and don't forget the collection plate before you leave.

So, yeah, I think I'm required to follow the law. No burnt offerings. Jesus was the last offering.
The commandments are the law.

oh come on that is just not the modern way to look at things.... all that stuff was just for those Jews and they couldn't do it and now Christ says we don't have to... all we need to do is believe and we will live in paradise..... So, why don't you just fall in line with what man tells you is the truth and go with it.... and hey let's just go hang out and we can rob a liquor store or something fun.... we are covered...

No laws no sin .... everything we wanted as children.... no rules we can live like peter pan...

And then when the fantasy is over we will stand in front of the lord.....
 
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amadeus

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Our clarity is from God.
But there's no babbling going on here.
Some scripture is easy to understand and has been studied and we know what it means. In some cases it cannot be understood with certainty.
I do rely on persons that have studied and understand the times of Jesus and how people spoke back then... how to link scripture so we could better know what is meant.

You seem not to agree with this method. Not everyone does...
Every time two believers disagree is there not some babbling involved?

People who understand less than every message God has given to them or all of the message God has give to them through the scripture are confused in the measure that they do not understand. God is not the author of confusion, and God did not author all of the garbage that is in us. God made everything very good, but man took the very good and misused it and abused it and twisted it. The very good exists, but too often it is in the midst of confusion. Without being led by the Holy Spirit, we can never untangle the whole mess. The tares are there together with the wheat. Be careful about trying to pull out the bad while the good is still growing for you may damage the young tender sprouts.

We may get some very good help from knowledgeable believers present or past [such as the Early Fathers], but unless the helpers are as clear and correct on every point as Jesus was, some of their help will be wrong. We, each one of us, needs the help of the Holy Spirit to sift through it all and come up with the "face to face" answer to replace "as through a glass darkly" answers.
 
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