Calling all Law Keepers.

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pia

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And people say our will cannot have any effect on the will of God and our faith in him, well Peter's will certainly did. I however wonder how Peter's fall in the water because of his doubt compares to the following scripture.



Apparently peter's faith at that point wasn't even the size of a mustard seed, or at least that is the logical conclusion one could come to, because according to Jesus, we could move mountains with such little faith.
People can have 100% faith the size of a mustard seed, or faith mixed with doubt, the size of a mountain.....It's the mixture that prevents it, much like those who insist on mixing the law with Grace....
 
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Dcopymope

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People can have 100% faith the size of a mustard seed, or faith mixed with doubt, the size of a mountain.....It's the mixture that prevents it, much like those who insist on mixing the law with Grace....

Uh huh, true, but you know, I have yet to see an explanation on the scriptures below from those who claim the law is of no effect. John sure as hell mixed the law with grace when it comes to those granted access to the tree of life. Which commandments are John referring to?

(Revelation 14:12-13) "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. {13} And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

(Revelation 22:14-15) "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. {15} For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
 
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Dcopymope

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Uh huh, true, but you know, I have yet to see an explanation on the scriptures below from those who claim the law is of no effect. John sure as hell mixed the law with grace when it comes to those granted access to the tree of life. Which commandments are John referring to?

Well Lord......I've searched high and low, far and wide, to the four corners of the faith....for the second time now, and there isn't a soul that can answer these perplexing question's. I guess I should have expected this.....whenever a text clearly contradicts the hyper grace, easy beliveism claptrap, fear not, you can always ignore it.......:).........HA!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Armadillo

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Well Lord......I've searched high and low, far and wide, to the four corners of the faith....for the second time now, and there isn't a soul that can answer these perplexing question's. I guess I should have expected this.....whenever a text clearly contradicts the hyper grace, easy beliveism claptrap, fear not, you can always ignore it.......:).........HA!!!!!!!!!!

You do know hyper-grace is mentioned in the New Testament, right? Of course you do, so what is your take on what Paul meant?
 
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bbyrd009

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much like those who insist on mixing the law with Grace
i don't like even debating that anymore, but we are told that "two sticks must be rejoined" in Ezekiel, and this prophecy is said to be unfulfilled as yet. It is a difficult concept chiefly imo because we are intrinsically involved.
 
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bbyrd009

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Well Lord......I've searched high and low, far and wide, to the four corners of the faith....for the second time now, and there isn't a soul that can answer these perplexing question's. I guess I should have expected this.....whenever a text clearly contradicts the hyper grace, easy beliveism claptrap, fear not, you can always ignore it.......:).........HA!!!!!!!!!!
you know this is not fair, the position is that "the commandments of God" are now to "have faith in Jesus," and this position is well supported by the Bible, "the work of God is to have faith in Whom He sent."

really the debate has been mashed into a ridiculous frame anyway, "do you need works or not?" which is completely irrelevant to the fact that we are all going to "do works" today, and they are going to be judged, just like they are supposed to and we are all fam with, "judge by the fruit."

If you believe faith in Christ alone will get you accepted into the kingdom, then Scripture certainly seems to agree, and so now you have been judged i guess. Your definition of "faith" is on you, just like your definition of "works," which we all must admit is now a pretty charged word, with many shades of definitions.
 
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ScottA

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Our clarity is from God.
But there's no babbling going on here.
Some scripture is easy to understand and has been studied and we know what it means. In some cases it cannot be understood with certainty.
I do rely on persons that have studied and understand the times of Jesus and how people spoke back then... how to link scripture so we could better know what is meant.

You seem not to agree with this method. Not everyone does...
The scriptures must be discerned spiritually, not linguistically, and not by the teachings of men - this is the word of God. But you deny what He has said and done, that He has confounded all language...and to those who will not hear the truth, He has also determined that they should believe a lie.

These things that I have told you are true by the spirit of God: "Let God be true, and every man a liar."
 
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ScottA

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ha c'mon bro, surely you see how this is made to be self-serving, i mean, "i love Jesus, so if you don't agree with me you are by definition wrong" lol.
No. There is historical precedence for both the false and the true, for both those who "believe" they are correct as well as for those who "know" the truth. There is no room for debating. One either aligns with what is true or what is false by the spirit that is in them. But, "he who has an ear to hear what the spirit says to the churches" will not be in error.
 

bbyrd009

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There is no room for debating.
i disagree. There, we are now debating.

for both those who "believe" they are correct as well as for those who "know" the truth may very likely be two descriptions of the same person, and not necessarily any kind of historical precedence for "both the false and the true," as the now famous soliloquy in Men in Black on "What people know" illuminated better than i could.
 
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GodsGrace

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i don't like even debating that anymore, but we are told that "two sticks must be rejoined" in Ezekiel, and this prophecy is said to be unfulfilled as yet. It is a difficult concept chiefly imo because we are intrinsically involved.
Ya (as quoted by bb)
I agree.
WHY is law vs grace even debated? What's to debate?
Let's take the human example, as we love to do.

So God is full of Grace. He IS grace. We don't even understand what grace is although we like to make believe we do. So He loves us soooo much that He's willing to abolish the moral law (which is His very fiber) and allow us to do whatever we want to do just because of His grace.

That's like me loving my kids sooooo much that I just let them do whatever they want to do because of my love for them.

God can't love us and shed His grace on us AND expect us to behave a certain way???
 

GodsGrace

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you know this is not fair, the position is that "the commandments of God" are now to "have faith in Jesus," and this position is well supported by the Bible, "the work of God is to have faith in Whom He sent."

really the debate has been mashed into a ridiculous frame anyway, "do you need works or not?" which is completely irrelevant to the fact that we are all going to "do works" today, and they are going to be judged, just like they are supposed to and we are all fam with, "judge by the fruit."

If you believe faith in Christ alone will get you accepted into the kingdom, then Scripture certainly seems to agree, and so now you have been judged i guess. Your definition of "faith" is on you, just like your definition of "works," which we all must admit is now a pretty charged word, with many shades of definitions.
bb

The verse you posted above, which I've highlighted, is
John 6:29

New International Version
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."


"Believe" meant something very specific in the N.T. Greek.
I've often asked for JUST ONE verse where Jesus says that nothing is necessary except to have faith in Him. AND, that if John 6:29 was chosen, then they'd have to explain what BELIEVE means.

Here's why:
Believe means that we are to DO what Jesus commanded.

Believe means

trust the person
learn from the person
obey the person
agree with the person
do what the person teaches
use them as an example
follow them in all ways

THIS IS WHAT BELIEVE MEANS IN THE GREEK.

If I believe in Jesus, then I MUST DO EVERYTHING HE SAID TO DO.

I DO NOT have the right to think that I don't have to.

Believe is an action word.
This is the only verse I've found where following commandments is not mentioned...However, within the word believe, is the understanding that commandments must be followed.

 

GodsGrace

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The scriptures must be discerned spiritually, not linguistically, and not by the teachings of men - this is the word of God. But you deny what He has said and done, that He has confounded all language...and to those who will not hear the truth, He has also determined that they should believe a lie.

These things that I have told you are true by the spirit of God: "Let God be true, and every man a liar."
OK
So tell me this:
John 3:5
To what does "born of water" refer?

Luke 16:19:31
Is this a parable?
What is Jesus trying to teach us?

Why did Jesus speak in parables?
 

bbyrd009

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bb

The verse you posted above, which I've highlighted, is
John 6:29

New International Version
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."


"Believe" meant something very specific in the N.T. Greek.
I've often asked for JUST ONE verse where Jesus says that nothing is necessary except to have faith in Him. AND, that if John 6:29 was chosen, then they'd have to explain what BELIEVE means.

Here's why:
Believe means that we are to DO what Jesus commanded.

Believe means

trust the person
learn from the person
obey the person
agree with the person
do what the person teaches
use them as an example
follow them in all ways

THIS IS WHAT BELIEVE MEANS IN THE GREEK.

If I believe in Jesus, then I MUST DO EVERYTHING HE SAID TO DO.

I DO NOT have the right to think that I don't have to.

Believe is an action word.
This is the only verse I've found where following commandments is not mentioned...However, within the word believe, is the understanding that commandments must be followed.
well, i happen to agree with you, but that is irrelevant to those who have a different belief in the matter. And even should i consider these now my "enemy," the commandments are clear how i am supposed to treat them, and how can i preach keeping commandments if i cannot follow them?
 

GodsGrace

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well, i happen to agree with you, but that is irrelevant to those who have a different belief in the matter. And even should i consider these now my "enemy," the commandments are clear how i am supposed to treat them, and how can i preach keeping commandments if i cannot follow them?
No enemies.

Here's how you preach commandments even though we can't keep them...:

The parent smokes.
Might get cancer of the lungs or throat or mouth.
Tells the child not to smoke.
The child says: But YOU do.

What should the parent do?
Give up telling the child not to smoke?
Always preach the truth.

All evil needs to flourish is for good to do nothing...
 

bbyrd009

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The parent smokes.
Might get cancer of the lungs or throat or mouth.
Tells the child not to smoke.
The child says: But YOU do.

What should the parent do?
Give up telling the child not to smoke?
Always preach the truth.

All evil needs to flourish is for good to do nothing...
well, your reflection here illuminates to me more why "preaching" is hypocritical, imo this is a very poor way to translate a Scriptural idea that was meant to encompass "teaching by example." And your analogy of children who are preached at to not smoke by smoking parents reflects this in its fruit imo, as if i am not mistaken most of these children take up smoking, following the example and not the "preaching."

The very worst thing one could do imo is to do one thing and preach another, sending a mixed signal that is usually interpreted the wrong way
i-bet-the-humans-tell-us-chocolate-will-kill-us-10085572.png
 

GodsGrace

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so imo this fails because the "good" and the "evil" are not labelled correctly, wadr; those deemed "good" in this scenario might actually be considered the "evil."
It wasn't my intention to speak about practicing what you preach.
Of course one should practice what they preach.

You said that you cannot understand why we should preach keeping the commandments if they cannot be kept.

So because they cannot be kept, they shouldn't be preached?
This is what I hear sometimes.
So we should all just stop preaching them because it's impossible to be perfect?

Because >I CANNOT stop smoking, does not mean my children will follow in my footsteps. They might see what a mess I am and NOT SMOKE.

BTW, nobody in my family smokes.