Calling all Law Keepers.

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bbyrd009

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You said that you cannot understand why we should preach keeping the commandments if they cannot be kept.
hmm, i would not have put it that way, i don't know of any commandments that cannot be kept.
So because they cannot be kept, they shouldn't be preached?
essentially yes, they should not be "preached" by those who cannot keep them anyway
So we should all just stop preaching them because it's impossible to be perfect?
yes, as strange as that strikes you. What i really mean is "find a better translation than 'preach' for that word, because 'practice' is meant to be intrinsic to that concept."
Because >I CANNOT stop smoking, does not mean my children will follow in my footsteps. They might see what a mess I am and NOT SMOKE.
i grant that this does also happen, but as near as i can tell it is usually the other way that is more prevalent, and these are exceptions to a rule, "kids follow their parents."
 
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amadeus

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hmm, i would not have put it that way, i don't know of any commandments that cannot be kept.
essentially yes, they should not be "preached" by those who cannot keep them anyway

Does the following question relate to your statement?
Should no one ever preach an overcoming message because no one is already an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer?
 
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ScottA

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OK
So tell me this:
John 3:5
To what does "born of water" refer?
Physically born of flesh.

Luke 16:19:31
Is this a parable?
What is Jesus trying to teach us?
That there are those who hear what the spirit says, and there are those who do not.
Why did Jesus speak in parables?
Jesus spoke in parables to fulfill the word of prophecy: That the Word, whom is God, would speak all things in parables so that the word would only be understandable to those to whom it is given.
 
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bbyrd009

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Does the following question relate to your statement?
Should no one ever preach an overcoming message because no one is already an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer?
well, imo this just adds another debate, @ "no one is an overcomer," which strangely enough feeds into the debate that is not being had about what was really meant by the word we translate "preach."

So, to answer your question, i would also say "yes," as i am not interested in hearing someone tell me about something they do not know. How can one preach what they have not experienced themselves, and know? Isn't that the kind of preaching we have now?
 

Rollo Tamasi

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I guess you don't read my posts...
You'll be horrified, I'm sure.
God does require that we follow the law.
The commandments were in force 3,000 years ago and they still are today.
It was wrong to steal back then, and it's wrong to steal today.
So, yeah, I think I'm required to follow the law.
No burnt offerings.
Jesus was the last offering.
Is that what the law is to you?
The commandments are the law.
Oh, some laws are dead and some are alive.
You decide which ones.
What denomination are you?
 

Rollo Tamasi

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I guess you don't read my posts...
You'll be horrified, I'm sure.
God does require that we follow the law.
The commandments were in force 3,000 years ago and they still are today.
It was wrong to steal back then, and it's wrong to steal today.
So, yeah, I think I'm required to follow the law.
No burnt offerings.
Jesus was the last offering.
Is that what the law is to you?
The commandments are the law.
Lol, that's cute, "I guess you don't read my posts".....
A better way of saying it is I only respond to the ones that make sense.
And even that is stretching it a bit.
 

bbyrd009

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Should no one ever preach
Should no one ever preach that a believer might be bitten by a poisonous snake and not be affected, in light of Mark 16?
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;
18they will pick up snakes;ag,ah if they should drink anything deadly, it will never harmai them; they will lay hands onaj the sick, and they will get well.”

i suggest that a lot of "preachers" have tried, so much so that the practice is now being outlawed. Now, i am not in a position to advise people on what to preach or who to listen to, preaching, but i am in a position to say that a lot of "believers" have preached this, and died trying to demonstrate it literally.

So preach what you do not know at your own risk, i guess.
 

GodsGrace

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Physically born of flesh.

That there are those who hear what the spirit says, and there are those who do not.
Jesus spoke in parables to fulfill the word of prophecy: That the Word, whom is God, would speak all things in parables so that the word would only be understandable to those to whom it is given.
1. Could John 3 possibly mean baptism? Theologians are split on this.
2. I asked if Luke 16 was a parable.
You didn't answer.
It's not a parable. Do you know why?
It teaches much more than what you said.
3. You mean God doesn't want everyone to understand Him??
How about John 3:16?

My point is that once you get to know Jesus and want to know more, it's necessary to do some studying to really dig deep.
 

GodsGrace

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Oh, some laws are dead and some are alive.
You decide which ones.
What denomination are you?
I like to think we're all Christian.
However, if you want to understand my belief system, I'm Nazarene.
Which laws do you believe are dead?
 

GodsGrace

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Lol, that's cute, "I guess you don't read my posts".....
A better way of saying it is I only respond to the ones that make sense.
And even that is stretching it a bit.
You asked if I think it's necessary to follow the law.
If you read my posts, you'd know the answer.
We do get to know each other's beliefs.

So why doesn't it make sense to follow the law?
If I know Jesus , I follow it more, not less.

Right?
 

GodsGrace

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Every time two believers disagree is there not some babbling involved?

People who understand less than every message God has given to them or all of the message God has give to them through the scripture are confused in the measure that they do not understand. God is not the author of confusion, and God did not author all of the garbage that is in us. God made everything very good, but man took the very good and misused it and abused it and twisted it. The very good exists, but too often it is in the midst of confusion. Without being led by the Holy Spirit, we can never untangle the whole mess. The tares are there together with the wheat. Be careful about trying to pull out the bad while the good is still growing for you may damage the young tender sprouts.

We may get some very good help from knowledgeable believers present or past [such as the Early Fathers], but unless the helpers are as clear and correct on every point as Jesus was, some of their help will be wrong. We, each one of us, needs the help of the Holy Spirit to sift through it all and come up with the "face to face" answer to replace "as through a glass darkly" answers.
That goes without saying.

Here's my order...
Jesus
Apostles
Early Christians
Church

Each must agree with the one above.
Without the Holy Spirit the Bible is just another book.
1 Corinthians 2:14
 

ScottA

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1. Could John 3 possibly mean baptism? Theologians are split on this.
2. I asked if Luke 16 was a parable.
You didn't answer.
It's not a parable. Do you know why?
It teaches much more than what you said.
3. You mean God doesn't want everyone to understand Him??
How about John 3:16?

My point is that once you get to know Jesus and want to know more, it's necessary to do some studying to really dig deep.
  1. No. Baptism, like all that is manifest in the world, is the image of nothing in the world, but of that which is on high. It is an image of spiritual cleansing. Being born of water [first], refers to the process of redemption: the fallen are born of water/flesh, first, that they may choose life or death.
  2. All things are parables, even all the world.
  3. Have you forgotten the parable of the wheat and the tares, that there is also bad seed planted among those whom God loves? It is God's desire that none should parish, except the son of perdition. Unfortunately, Satan has many children.
 

GodsGrace

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  1. No. Baptism, like all that is manifest in the world, is the image of nothing in the world, but of that which is on high. It is an image of spiritual cleansing. Being born of water [first], refers to the process of redemption: the fallen are born of water/flesh, first, that they may choose life or death.
  2. All things are parables, even all the world.
  3. Have you forgotten the parable of the wheat and the tares, that there is also bad seed planted among those whom God loves? It is God's desire that none should parish, except the son of perdition. Unfortunately, Satan has many children.
Looks like you have it all figured out!
Can't argue with that.
Just want to say that the parable of the wheat and the tares has nothing to do with why Jesus spoke in parables.
I agree that the enemy has many children.
 

Copperhead

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hmm, i would not have put it that way, i don't know of any commandments that cannot be kept.

You must only mean the original 10. There are 613 commandments, 248 positive commandments and 365 negative commandments. So I am quite sure that there are some that cannot be kept. Especially those regarding the temple since there isn't one right now. And some commandments only pertained to woman as did some only pertained to men, and some pertain to children. And there are some commandments that only pertained to foreigners living in Israel. And some commandments that only pertained to Jews living in the land of Israel, they don't apply to Jews living outside the land.

There is no way that the original 10 can be fully kept without knowing many of the others. The Shabbat for instance. Sure, the 4th commandment says to keep Shabbat, but later commandments say how it is to be kept. So without the rest of Torah (instruction), one may be keeping Shabbat in error, which by default, they are not keeping Shabbat at all. And I am comfortable saying, most of those who would argue about keeping Shabbat today, do so in error of the other commandments regarding how to keep it.
 
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amadeus

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well, imo this just adds another debate, @ "no one is an overcomer," which strangely enough feeds into the debate that is not being had about what was really meant by the word we translate "preach."

So, to answer your question, i would also say "yes," as i am not interested in hearing someone tell me about something they do not know. How can one preach what they have not experienced themselves, and know? Isn't that the kind of preaching we have now?
How does one ever move beyond what they already have if they never hear about what they do not have? Who is to tell it? Does God never put good words in the mouths of people to speak to others? Or do people only speak what comes from their own evil hearts?
 

amadeus

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Should no one ever preach that a believer might be bitten by a poisonous snake and not be affected, in light of Mark 16?
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;
18they will pick up snakes;ag,ah if they should drink anything deadly, it will never harmai them; they will lay hands onaj the sick, and they will get well.”

i suggest that a lot of "preachers" have tried, so much so that the practice is now being outlawed. Now, i am not in a position to advise people on what to preach or who to listen to, preaching, but i am in a position to say that a lot of "believers" have preached this, and died trying to demonstrate it literally.

So preach what you do not know at your own risk, i guess.
A lot of preachers have missed the mark because they were not called by God in the first place. Some preachers have missed the mark because having been called by God, they failed to follow Him as they moved in their calling.

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" Rom 10:14-15

The feet of those who are really called but fail to preach the "gospel of peace and bring glad tidings of good things" are like this watchman in Ezekiel:

"But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned; if the sword come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand." Ezek 33:6


Instead of watching and warning according to God's Word, too many preachers and teachers and other ministers work for themselves and say what people want to hear so long as the people seem content to keep the watchman on the job with full pay.

There are still snake handler groups in Oklahoma, but in my experience they usually have missed the message from God in the verses you cited.

Who are the snakes? Who was the serpent in the garden that lied to Eve? There are probably a lot of people walking around with a serpent or snake nature including some preachers, but if we should have to deal with them their words will not hurt us if we are in the name of Jesus. But most labeled Christians could not tell you what it means to be in his name. Likely a good number of preachers also could not.

I won't go into more of what I believe with regard to the other things you mention from Mark 16...
 
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pia

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Uh huh, true, but you know, I have yet to see an explanation on the scriptures below from those who claim the law is of no effect. John sure as hell mixed the law with grace when it comes to those granted access to the tree of life. Which commandments are John referring to?
I know...There are quite a few of those throughout the entire Bible, but in reference to us, I think one of the mistakes we make, is in assuming that the disciples, went from having been under the law, their whole lives, to overnight being completely perfect in and under our New Covenant, which as we were made aware of, within all the descriptions of Jesus with the Pharisees and Saducees, was a really big ask, because so much of God, had been misunderstood right from the beginning, and Gods 'Name' ( His Character ) was being blasphemed all the night and day long.
The word to 'blaspheme' means to 'speak about a thing, which one has no actual knowledge of'........And let's face it, mankind have been making up the rules as he went along, and The Truth, got buried in between , and sadly a lot of those mistakes are still being perpetrated today.
Our Father and Jesus Himself at times, have endured quite a 'character assassination' , in the hands of men, and these men have DEMANDED that other men follow them in it......Jesus spoke of this several times in a few different ways, about them ' shutting of Heaven for themselves, but worse, preventing other's from entering in also, because of their insistence that people just blindly follow after them.
Every single fellowship I have been a part of since being saved, shows this exact same problem.....They take the written word, as if it's the Living Word......They take what's been written about or even by the disciples, as laws written in stone, and off man has gone again, doing the exact same thing the Hebrews did initially.......We also have 'leaders' who DFEMAND' that we follow after their interpretation, of what has been written, assuming it to be 100% perfect, which anyone, reading the Bible, can tell quite quickly, simply is not the case....
In regard to those specific verses you quoted, I have never prayed or sought understanding of these particular verses, but one thing I did find, was that in Rev 22:14, where in the NKJ it says :" Blessed are those who do His commandments....." In a different translation of that sentence it comes out as :" Blessed are they who wash their Robes, that they may have the right to enter etc....."
We are informed that there exists Robes ( plural ) of Righteousness and a ( singular ) Gown of Salvation......Spiritual clothing which we are given by the Lord, so that we will never be naked before our Father....These robes can be cleaned for us, if we have stained them.....some are so good, they won't need their garments cleansed before going in, and other's do.
Also that description is an odd one, because it can't be talking of Heaven, because dogs, sorcerers and Harlots, wouldn't be just outside heavens Gate, surely ???
It's an interesting thought, but me, for the most part, .......I just hold onto Him for dear life, as much as I am capable of at any particular time, because I have learned to trust that He will direct me, guide me and teach me anything which is needed for someone or something, when it is needed.....I'm done being all in knots, trying to be an oh so perfect little human being, as I have seen that even the very most perfect a human CAN be, is still nowhere near the perfection of God, so we are literally beating our heads against a rather large brick wall, for no reason other than our own pride, that we can say that 'WE' did this or that, that 'WE' accomplished this or that, instead of just resting in Jesus, and saying thank you all the time, because HE DID all that needed to be done, and His plan of Salvation is PERFECTION itself, as with everything else God makes........And this time, nothing will stand in God's way, He has seen to that ! :)
 

Dcopymope

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I know...There are quite a few of those throughout the entire Bible, but in reference to us, I think one of the mistakes we make, is in assuming that the disciples, went from having been under the law, their whole lives, to overnight being completely perfect in and under our New Covenant, which as we were made aware of, within all the descriptions of Jesus with the Pharisees and Saducees, was a really big ask, because so much of God, had been misunderstood right from the beginning, and Gods 'Name' ( His Character ) was being blasphemed all the night and day long.
The word to 'blaspheme' means to 'speak about a thing, which one has no actual knowledge of'........And let's face it, mankind have been making up the rules as he went along, and The Truth, got buried in between , and sadly a lot of those mistakes are still being perpetrated today.
Our Father and Jesus Himself at times, have endured quite a 'character assassination' , in the hands of men, and these men have DEMANDED that other men follow them in it......Jesus spoke of this several times in a few different ways, about them ' shutting of Heaven for themselves, but worse, preventing other's from entering in also, because of their insistence that people just blindly follow after them.
Every single fellowship I have been a part of since being saved, shows this exact same problem.....They take the written word, as if it's the Living Word......They take what's been written about or even by the disciples, as laws written in stone, and off man has gone again, doing the exact same thing the Hebrews did initially.......We also have 'leaders' who DFEMAND' that we follow after their interpretation, of what has been written, assuming it to be 100% perfect, which anyone, reading the Bible, can tell quite quickly, simply is not the case....
In regard to those specific verses you quoted, I have never prayed or sought understanding of these particular verses, but one thing I did find, was that in Rev 22:14, where in the NKJ it says :" Blessed are those who do His commandments....." In a different translation of that sentence it comes out as :" Blessed are they who wash their Robes, that they may have the right to enter etc....."
We are informed that there exists Robes ( plural ) of Righteousness and a ( singular ) Gown of Salvation......Spiritual clothing which we are given by the Lord, so that we will never be naked before our Father....These robes can be cleaned for us, if we have stained them.....some are so good, they won't need their garments cleansed before going in, and other's do.
Also that description is an odd one, because it can't be talking of Heaven, because dogs, sorcerers and Harlots, wouldn't be just outside heavens Gate, surely ???
It's an interesting thought, but me, for the most part, .......I just hold onto Him for dear life, as much as I am capable of at any particular time, because I have learned to trust that He will direct me, guide me and teach me anything which is needed for someone or something, when it is needed.....I'm done being all in knots, trying to be an oh so perfect little human being, as I have seen that even the very most perfect a human CAN be, is still nowhere near the perfection of God, so we are literally beating our heads against a rather large brick wall, for no reason other than our own pride, that we can say that 'WE' did this or that, that 'WE' accomplished this or that, instead of just resting in Jesus, and saying thank you all the time, because HE DID all that needed to be done, and His plan of Salvation is PERFECTION itself, as with everything else God makes........And this time, nothing will stand in God's way, He has seen to that ! :)

I know of the "translation" where practically the entire verse was changed from those who kept his commandments being given access to the tree of life to one about washing robes........:rolleyes:.........Quite frankly, it makes the Bible look silly. If I wanted to wash a robe, well I have a washing machine to do that for me. This is why I don't trust any version of the Bible succeeding the KJV. Too much is changed, added, and outright removed for me to take any of them seriously, and I am certain that Jesus Christ won't be at all pleased with those who did it. The NIV is a prime example of this. When it comes to those versus, I keep it simple like everything else written of in the Bible.

Jesus Christ made it very clear that those who love him will keep his commandments. He made doing so very easy for us, by boiling it all down to two versus. If you really believe that you're sins have been atoned for under the new covenant, then its not going to be too hard for you to do it since the law was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus and written on your heart according to the prophet Jeremiah. Even Paul said that the new covenant was never meant to abolish the law, but to establish it. Its not a pride thing, as if its something we're doing, because the 'doings' been over and done with already by the death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 

Dcopymope

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Also that description is an odd one, because it can't be talking of Heaven, because dogs, sorcerers and Harlots, wouldn't be just outside heavens Gate, surely ???

Its speaking of the new earth. All you have to do is go back to the end of the previous chapter to get some context. All those who enter into the city to eat of the tree are those who are in the book of life. If your name isn't in the book of life you get tossed in the lake of fire. There is no alternative for you. So to answer your question, no, they won't be outside the gate or anywhere else on the new earth, because the dogs, sorcerers, harlots, witches, etc at that point have been tossed into the fire.
 

bbyrd009

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You must only mean the original 10. There are 613 commandments, 248 positive commandments and 365 negative commandments. So I am quite sure that there are some that cannot be kept.
ya, i went that way for a while myself, at first; until i learned the lesson there, "hardness of heart," and what "fulfilling the law" means. Well, i kept "standards" anyway, same thing i think. I did that for years. Learned some great lessons. i was a complete outlaw at that point, needed them i guess. i never apologized to anyone, and was not prepared for grace at that point imo.

i have "laws" now that i keep that wouldn't even make sense to many people, that would only be sins to me if i "broke" them. Mostly by way of accommodations for others, "don't put that there while mom is here" type stuff. So if i had to describe what has changed, i think it is my response to the law that has; because being sensitive to the needs of others and admitting when i have messed up to them and evincing rebound in the matter, and "overlooking a matter" in others, or going to them in private with a complaint instead of to every other peer first, these were all hard things to learn, for me at least.
Especially those regarding the temple since there isn't one right now.
so you say, but i am building that one, i'm pretty sure
And some commandments only pertained to woman as did some only pertained to men, and some pertain to children. And there are some commandments that only pertained to foreigners living in Israel. And some commandments that only pertained to Jews living in the land of Israel, they don't apply to Jews living outside the land.
yup, and when i go to Israel i keep some of them while i am there, too, the ones they still keep anyway, milk on this shelf and meat on that one or whatever, so as not to offend, even though i understand the ref to "mixing milk and meat" differently now, and the law strikes me as...whatever, quaint, or naive, trying to keep it literally like that.

maybe, since i have a revelation now regarding mixing milk and meat, i should maybe "preach" it to them? Lol, i guess that is why i didn't get to go to Israel when i was still under the law, is all i can say there.
There is no way that the original 10 can be fully kept without knowing many of the others.
so you say, but those are for Jewish society, and we have our own, right, our law is based upon the same ten, so if you are trying to keep the law i suggest that there are thousands more, too. But see, there is no law says i cannot take my shirt off if i'm laboring at something and i get hot; but i still am not taking my shirt off if it might offend someone, whereas "under the law" i would be more inclined to do so and "stand up for my rights" prolly.

it is just a different way of thinking. If i have offended you, and neglected something, i sure do apologize, let me know and i will change; now.
The Shabbat for instance. Sure, the 4th commandment says to keep Shabbat, but later commandments say how it is to be kept. So without the rest of Torah (instruction), one may be keeping Shabbat in error, which by default, they are not keeping Shabbat at all. And I am comfortable saying, most of those who would argue about keeping Shabbat today, do so in error of the other commandments regarding how to keep it.
i keep Sabbath, and i agree with you, that i do not keep it the same way that they do in Jewish culture. This was prolly my final struggle under the law, what actually freed me. And i had not found Word yet, so it was harder. I observed that other believers whom i respected kept every day holy, or kept Sunday, and what would once have struck me as very confusing actually became the thing that clarified grace for me, because i was faced with the choice of shunning people, or forgiving them (not "disputing holidays"), which of course does not mean going up to Sunday-keepers and saying "i forgive you."