I just refuse to treat the bible like a personal belief buffet; picking out the verses from context that suit my beliefs.... I can't do that. But apparently it doesn't bother you. Obviously, Scripture isn't enough for you; You have to add your feelings with it too. I'll be back tomorrow to continue representing Scriptures.
Calvinism is a Cult
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I just refuse to treat the bible like a personal belief buffet; picking out the verses from context that suit my beliefs.... I can't do that. But apparently it doesn't bother you. Obviously, Scripture isn't enough for you; You have to add your feelings with it too. I'll be back tomorrow to continue representing Scriptures.
The way that I read my Bible, is that I read each book or epistle from beginning to end; and let the Holy Spirit speak to me.
Do you ask the Holy Spirit to speak to you whenever you read?
If He does, you can be certain that He is going to cause certain verses to jump out at you while you are reading; and this means that He may speak to you through a singular verse apart from its context; while the context will not contradict the plain meaning of the verse as He interprets it to you.
Heb 4:12, For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13, Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
No not out of context at all . Egypt is the place where God placed Israel to deliver them from famine. Then to show His Glory and deliver Isreal out of their persecution.
Also it became a place that Jews fled to escape political persecution in the intertestamental period and thru the first century.
Mathew Shows using the prophet’s words that Jesus is the true Israel . Then like the Exodus from Egypt God goes on and dwelt with His children . Just as Jesus did . To only be rejected. Just like in Hosea they rejected God .
No not out of context . Just dig deeper.
Blessings
Bill
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Hos 11:1, When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Here, Israel is said to be God's son that he called out of Egypt. In context, it is referring to the Exodus.
Mat 2:14, When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15, And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Here, in context, it is speaking of the fact that Joseph went to Egypt with his wife and child; and when he came back from Egypt, Jesus, God's Son, under Joseph's care, was physically called out of Egypt.
The Holy Spirit here applied this scripture differently than in the original context: He applied the term "my son" to Jesus, since it is clear in NT theology that Jesus is the Son of God.
One of the issues here is Replacement Theology. It should be clear that the promises in the OT given to Israel will be fulfilled in the seed of Jacob and not necessarily the church.
However, I would rather not open up this can of worms as it would derail the thread considerably.
Here, Israel is said to be God's son that he called out of Egypt. In context, it is referring to the Exodus.
Mat 2:14, When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15, And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Here, in context, it is speaking of the fact that Joseph went to Egypt with his wife and child; and when he came back from Egypt, Jesus, God's Son, under Joseph's care, was physically called out of Egypt.
The Holy Spirit here applied this scripture differently than in the original context: He applied the term "my son" to Jesus, since it is clear in NT theology that Jesus is the Son of God.
One of the issues here is Replacement Theology. It should be clear that the promises in the OT given to Israel will be fulfilled in the seed of Jacob and not necessarily the church.
However, I would rather not open up this can of worms as it would derail the thread considerably.
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Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
I want to make a request @justbyfaith
Several times Romans 5:2 has been used for the lost, or world at large, as a methodology of how to be saved by ones decision. It has been shown this has been a misusage. Consider the fact that verse 1 states "...we have been justified by faith." This then is speaking only of the converted.
In verse 2 Paul continues to address the same recipients with this; "Through him we also have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand." This clearly shows this passage to be truth for those who are converted, not for those outside Christ.
This is an appeal that the text be used properly, that God's Word be used correctly, handled sincerely, in the sight of God it be used in a way that gives commendation that the user of the Word is committed to these, in honesty, and integrity; note 2 Corinthians 2:17; 2 Corinthians 4:2; 2 Timothy 2:15 &c.
Perhaps a new fresh beginning for you today. No harm is done if you accept the fact of it's true context and usage and concede to this fact.
Several times Romans 5:2 has been used for the lost, or world at large, as a methodology of how to be saved by ones decision. It has been shown this has been a misusage. Consider the fact that verse 1 states "...we have been justified by faith." This then is speaking only of the converted.
In verse 2 Paul continues to address the same recipients with this; "Through him we also have obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand." This clearly shows this passage to be truth for those who are converted, not for those outside Christ.
This is an appeal that the text be used properly, that God's Word be used correctly, handled sincerely, in the sight of God it be used in a way that gives commendation that the user of the Word is committed to these, in honesty, and integrity; note 2 Corinthians 2:17; 2 Corinthians 4:2; 2 Timothy 2:15 &c.
Perhaps a new fresh beginning for you today. No harm is done if you accept the fact of it's true context and usage and concede to this fact.
Romans 5:1-2, Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; By whom we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
I will concede your point if you will concede mine: that as believers we have obtained access into this grace wherein we stand by faith.
That is, that the entry point by which we enter into grace is very much entered into by faith.
I think that it can only be spiritual blindness that prevents you from seeing that, even though Romans 5:1-2 is speaking of believers, we have, as believers, obtained access into the grace wherein we stand by faith
Were we believers before we obtained this access? I think that the text does not provide for the concept that we were.
But we became believers, and recipients of grace, through our faith in Jesus Christ.
Therefore we cannot be recipients of grace apart from faith in Jesus Christ.
If you wish to disagree, please show how the text declares otherwise, if you think that it does.
I hold that Romans 5:2 indicates that, whereas in John 10 we find that Jesus is the door, that Romans 5:2 indicates that faith is the key by which we obtain access into the room we call grace; that faith is the key that opens the door.
Faith alone will not obtain salvation for you. It will only obtain righteousness. But if you will actually take a wild look at Romans 10:9-10, I think you will see that confession is made unto salvation.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Well, there is really no such thing as "I will concede if you concede." Therefore, with all due respect, you have not made a concession.
Either you concede, or you don't. That's pretty simple.
The text is speaking in context to those already born again. Perhaps you can use another text, contextually to prove your other points, but this text isn't written to or about those who are outside of Christ. Let's stick with this passage that is to believers.
This is my point, we must interpret with the integrity of self and of the text in honor of the Word of God, adding nothing not already there to any passage. Again, it is written to those already in Christ and is not addressing any others. The text is very clear on this.
I will be more than happy to continue once we establish this fact. So, let's either concede that it is to the already converted, adding nothing else, then we can move on from there. This is to allow the text to stand as to its true meaning without importing any ideas into it, concerning our beliefs.
I hope you can simply accept these facts, then we can have a real conversation, biblically sound and move forward.
Then I don't.
If you don't want to continue this conversation, that is fine with me. I will simply have to pray that the Lord opens your eyes to what is clearly set before you.
Because there is something in you that is blinding you to the obvious truth of what this verse is saying. If we obtained access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, then we entered into grace through our faith. And this is true even if the text is talking only to believers.
So, I am going to pray that the Holy Ghost convicts and convinces you of the truth of this matter; because it is obvious that spiritual blindness is involved somehow since you are not seeing what is clearly set before you.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Of course, I already know you don't. I was clear on that in my last post.
You've rejected the clear, defined, truthful, plain teaching and context of Romans 5:1-2, that it is for and to the converted, for your tradition.
I hoped for you to come around to honest, truthful interpretation with integrity, but figured I'd get to the bottom line of the matter: Tradition (and you trying to be right, even when proven wrong) is more important to you than truth. That, and you will not bow, even to the authority and plain teaching of Scripture.
You still have not defined the word "access" for me.
Thing is, I can concede your point and it doesn't change the fact that we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; which means that we are saved by grace through faith.
Spiritual blindness prevents you from seeing the meaning of these words. I thought to try to put the concept in different words but then I realized that the words that it is spoken in are adequate and say it quite nicely; and therefore the only reason why you cannot see it is because you will not see it.
The "plain teaching of scripture" sides with my understanding, not yours.
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Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:1-22
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.
The problem is not that we will not see it... the problem is that you refuse to take the Scriptures as a whole, insisting that you can build a solid theology by yanking 1 or 2 verses out of context without reading what the rest of the Scriptures say. Above are a few verses that show that we can only claim to be saved by faith AFTER God gives us the grace to accept this faith. When the verse you quoted says "WE are given access by faith into this grace wherein we stand" The WE referred to is born again believers, NOT those outside of the faith! This means that the entire premise of your belief is based on a misinterpretation of the verse; he is not telling unbelievers that they can grab their own faith, he is telling believers that through the faith given by the grace of God, we have access to the multitudes of other graces offered to God's people.
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Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Exactly. I pray people, like multitudes of professing believers, no, every single one of them, would stop taking Scripture out of context, and Paul's prayer in Ephesians 1:15-21 would be fulfilled in them.
And how is this faith given by the grace of God? According your misguided doctrine God elects some to receive saving faith as a gift, but then turns around and ignores everyone else. Which is preposterous.
The Bible is very clear that (1) the Gospel itself is the power of God unto salvation, (2) faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel), and (3) the Gospel (the Word of God) is the *seed* which eventually produces the New Birth.
And this is exactly why Christ commanded the Church to go into all the world and PREACH THE GOSPEL to every creature so that WHOSOEVER calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. And the ones who do not believe are damned.
But Calvinists reject the power of the Gospel and come up with a fanciful *gift* of saving faith. Even Ephesians 2:8 is deliberately distorted so that faith is presented as God's gift, rather than eternal life (salvation) which is the gift of God to those who believe (Rom 6:23).
Read Romans 12:3. We are told God has allotted each of us a measure of faith. Which means that we only have as much faith as God by His grace has given us. If God chooses not to give faith to some, He is just in doing so. Again, on what ground does God owe anyone, much less everyone, His grace?
All of which are true. However, you are either missing or ignoring a very key fact shown in Scripture:
Jeremiah 17:9-10
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
Genesis 6:5
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Mark 7:21-23
For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
But most importantly, you are ignoring that:
1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Man's heart, as it is, is sinful; it does not want to choose God; It loves darkness rather than light. This is why it takes a work of God to change the hearts of men. The grace of a new, clean, spiritually discerning heart is needed before we can have faith.
It remains that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13.
So I am not going to buy the lie, (intended by the devil to be an attack on my helmet of salvation, utilizing the same doctrinal system that claims to provide such an helmet,) that even though I have called on the name of the Lord for salvation, that there is the possibility that I did it in the flesh and therefore it was not valid. Because (the implication is that) I was not chosen of the Lord; and therefore the fact that I chose Him and confessed Him with my mouth before men is of no consequence.
The reality is that there are promises in God's word that tell us that if we confess Him before men, He will also confess us before the Father which is in heaven (Matthew 10:32); that we believe unto righteousness and confession is made unto salvation, Romans 10:10.
The fact is that I can bank on the fact that I have made a decision for Christ and continue to walk with Him, because I received Him as my Lord and Saviour and am thereby sealed with the Holy Ghost.
The same promises that tell us that we are saved because we have confessed the Lord, also tell you that if you have not confessed the Lord and/or received Him into your hearts, that you have never been born again and therefore you will not enter in to the kingdom of God until and unless you do.
So I am not going to buy the lie, (intended by the devil to be an attack on my helmet of salvation, utilizing the same doctrinal system that claims to provide such an helmet,) that even though I have called on the name of the Lord for salvation, that there is the possibility that I did it in the flesh and therefore it was not valid. Because (the implication is that) I was not chosen of the Lord; and therefore the fact that I chose Him and confessed Him with my mouth before men is of no consequence.
The reality is that there are promises in God's word that tell us that if we confess Him before men, He will also confess us before the Father which is in heaven (Matthew 10:32); that we believe unto righteousness and confession is made unto salvation, Romans 10:10.
The fact is that I can bank on the fact that I have made a decision for Christ and continue to walk with Him, because I received Him as my Lord and Saviour and am thereby sealed with the Holy Ghost.
The same promises that tell us that we are saved because we have confessed the Lord, also tell you that if you have not confessed the Lord and/or received Him into your hearts, that you have never been born again and therefore you will not enter in to the kingdom of God until and unless you do.
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God owes no one His grace, but He freely offers it TO ALL MEN because He is the God of all grace. And you are misapplying Romans 12:3, which is addressed to those who are ALREADY saved. There is also a spiritual gift of faith different from saving faith, which comes from the hearing and reading of the Gospel (Rom 10:17).
No. I am not missing or ignoring any of that. What you are missing is (1) the POWER of the Gospel and (2) the POWER of the Holy Spirit to bring vile sinners to Christ. And that is why the preaching of the Gospel is a COMMAND. Now notice what Paul says regarding this matter. *Whosoever* includes every sinner, no matter how evil and vicious his sins have been.
ROMANS 10
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
So born again believers have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand. Does this say that we did not first have access by faith?
That one moment we did not have faith, and the next we did; and obtained access into grace through that faith the moment we came into it, should be evident.
The fact that we continue to have access into grace by faith does not mean that we did not initially enter into grace through faith.
This whole thing is really ridiculous; and eradicates the basis for coming into salvation in the first place.
It implies that a person can be saved apart from faith in Jesus Christ.
Because if grace comes before faith, then I do not need faith to enter into grace.
So I can just go on my merry way believing that I am a recipient of grace even if I have not placed my faith in Jesus and in His finished work on the Cross for my salvation.
While the crux of the gospel message is that we must believe in Jesus in order to be saved.
That "Calvinism is a Cult" therefore ends up being an understatement.
It is a dangerous doctrine that undermines the entry point into salvation and implies that men do not need to enter in through the door using the key.
I doubt the salvation of those who believe such a view; for why do they believe in it? It may be because they do not themselves want to enter in through the door using the key.
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SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
@Preacher4Truth @Mjh29 @Laish @Anthony D'Arienzo
I am thankful for Brothers like you who are grounded in the scriptures and do not trust the flesh.
Ok a question or two . I am trying to understand where your coming from . According to your statement above that Calvinst are cult members . How did I become a cult member before becoming aware of Reformed theology? I was a atheist before I picking up a Bible along with a dictionary and start reading. Second question how is it two people hearing the gospel preached at the same time are not both saved ? What is the difference between these two ?
Blessings
Bill
This question seems to me to be irrelevant, so if you can help me to understand how you think it is relevant, it would be appreciated.
I would like to know what your answer is to this question as well; because I think that my answer to it is only obvious; if you understand what I am saying at all. It is summed up in the following:
Rom 10:9, That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10, For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11, For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12, For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
What is your answer to the above question? How is it two people hearing the gospel preached at the same time are not both saved? What is the difference between these two? Because it should be clear that there is the possibility that one of them will be saved and the other won't.
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