CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity

[Red Baker]

God has called ALL human beings... Jesus said if He was lifted up He would draw ALL men unto Himself and God's Word says He has tasted of death for ALL men, and He is commanding ALL men everywhere to repent.

You cannot prove your statement of God calling all human beings.

Ezra, of old set an example for us of how we should use the word of God, and you certainly are not doing by misusing John 12; etc.

Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."

We read distinctly, and labor to give each scripture under consideration its proper sense, and then and only then can we understand what is being said, and help other to understand as well.

Those who corrupt scriptures ( and there are many, ) use the mere sound of words to believe what they want to believe and to reject doctrines those teachings their minds cannot accept and do not want to accept, since it does not match up to the god that have created in their own hearts.

It's unfortunate that Calvinists apparently think Jesus lied when He said these things in His Word
That's too bad for the calvinists!

Another logical fallacy, maybe unintentionally spoken.

Again there are Christians that take the time and labor to put the proper sense upon all scriptures by following both Paul and Isaiah and Ezra.

Paul.... 2nd Timothy 2:15~~"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Isaiah 28:9-14~"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem."

I have explain such verses as you mentioned above in my post. If you need me to do sos again, then let us do this together one on one debate in the spirit of godly meekness, that others may learn.

 

[JBO]

To believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born is the height of spiritual depravity.

So, so very, very true. Anyone even considering such a concept should take it as a reason to reject Calvinism or any pseudo-Calvinism outright.

 

[Red Baker]

So, so very, very true. Anyone even considering such a concept should take it as a reason to reject Calvinism or any pseudo-Calvinism outright.

Jim,

The wording of Robert's statement is a straw man logical argument.

Let approach the doctrine the manner in which we read of predestination from God's very own testimony.

Ephesian 1: 3-5~"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

So, why would not any sincere believer not consider the doctrine of predestination, if we read the above scriptures with a honest child like faith?

Of course, election of grace and predestination are two separate doctrine taught in the scriptures. Election secures our eternal redemption, while predestination is the channel through which God brings us unto our eternal inheritance all which is according to his own good pleasure.

Now, if you, Robert or, Big Boy Johnson, desires to look at these scriptures and give your understanding, then I'm here to do so with all three of you, or one at a time, it makes no difference to me.

 

[JBO]

Jim,

The wording of Robert's statement is a straw man logical argument.

Let approach the doctrine the manner in which we read of predestination from God's very own testimony.

So, why would not any sincere believer not consider the doctrine of predestination, if we read the above scriptures with a honest child like faith?

Of course, election of grace and predestination are two separate doctrine taught in the scriptures. Election secures our eternal redemption, while predestination is the channel through which God brings us unto our eternal inheritance all which is according to his own good pleasure.

Now, if you, Robert or, Big Boy Johnson, desires to look at these scriptures and give your understanding, then I'm here to do so with all three of you, or one at a time, it makes no difference to me.

The key issue here is how God choses those He saves. Given that Calvinism is tied to the false doctrine of Total Depravity, then Calvinism must reject the biblical definition of elect and redefine it in some other manner.

And Robert's statement is not a straw man. It is completely accurate.

 

[Tulipbee]

Robert, in your post concerning Calvinism that I have read so far, you do nothing more than use logical fallacies~mostly........

Red herring logical fallacy​

The red herring fallacy is the deliberate attempt to mislead and distract an audience by bringing up an unrelated issue to falsely oppose the issue at hand. Essentially, it is an attempt to change the point of the subject and divert attention elsewhere.

And I have seen you use many........

Straw man logical fallacy​

The straw man logical fallacy is the distortion of an opponent’s argument to make it easier to refute. By exaggerating or simplifying someone’s position, one can easily attack a weak version of it and ignore their real strong argument, that supports their opponents potion on what is being discuss

I can take you posts that I have read so far, and prove how that's all you do.


I have proven that God is merciful, just, and does not take delight in the destruction of the wicked~God provided Adam with all he needed to continue in the state in which he was perfectly created.

God's own testimony concerning all things in which he created is recorded for us to read and observed:


God placed Adam and Eve in a perfect world, in a glorious garden, with one simple commandment, yet it was man that sinned and lost God's image in which he was created with~knowledge, understanding, and true holiness. Adam became at enmity ~ not just an enemy, but more than that, he became at war against his Creator God.

God was not under obligation to secure Adam from falling, yet in mercy, after they fell into sin and came under the power of the devil, God promised a redeemer through the seed of the woman that would come and destroy Satan and his works of bringing darkness and destruction upon the man.

After Adam's fall, all that came from his lions had his fallen image~which consist in ignorance, darkness, a heart that is at enmity against God. We do not put the blame on God as your understanding of the scriptures would have you believe.

God knew that any created spirits, or flesh and blood, could not have the power of immutability~thereby, he had an election of grace both among the angels and man. God was not under obligation to secure either from falling, the fall was their own, and the consequences was deserving, since God must punish sin with destruction.

Under the new covenant God does secure the salvation of his elect through Jesus Christ's perfect obedience being the second Adam.


Robert, I have not chosen anything, God chose me to believe his truth on the behalf of his Son Jesus Christ~if he had not, then I would have never believe on my own, since, by nature, I had the same heart that Adam had after his fall. By God's power and grace I ahve chosen to believe the word of God and to defend my understanding with the same.


A man's understanding is not what will cause one to be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death. No man has perfect understanding, what will cause one to be destroyed in the lake of fire, is rejecting in the word of God ~ true faith in the scriptures is evident by having a true understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ ~ though not limited to that.

Ah, the theological debate, where logical fallacies and straw men are tossed around like confetti at a carnival! Red Baker, you've entered the circus of theological discourse, where Robert Pate is performing the acrobatics of accusations.
Now, Pate seems to be juggling the notion that God is a tyrant sending people to hell. Red Baker, with a nimble dodge, counters the fallacies – a master of logical martial arts.
In the Calvinist comedy club, let's explore the script:
Pate: "You believe God is an unjust tyrant!" Red Baker: "Logical fallacies alert! Let's dissect these arguments with the precision of a theological surgeon."
Enter Genesis 1:31, the Calvinist's prop – a dazzling display of God's goodness before Adam's fall, highlighting the perfection bestowed upon humanity.
Red Baker takes the stage, twirling the straw man like a circus ribbon: "God placed Adam in a perfect world; the fall was man's doing. God, in mercy, promises a Redeemer, securing salvation under the new covenant."
Pate attempts another juggling act: "Your belief sends you to hell!" Red Baker pirouettes: "No choosing here; God chose me. My belief stems from God's grace. Understanding the gospel is key – rejection leads to the lake of fire."
In this theological circus, Calvin's writings become the tightrope, balancing divine sovereignty and human responsibility. The audience watches the dance of predestination, election, and salvation unfold with each theological somersault.
And there you have it, a theological spectacle where logical fallacies and straw men meet their match in the Calvinist comedy club. The show must go on!

 

[Tulipbee]

They have chosen to believe Satan's advocate John Calvin.

Ah, the grand theological theater where Calvinism and Arminianism engage in a verbal jousting match!
Big Boy Johnson, the Arminian herald, enters the stage with a flourish, accusing the "ye olde Calvinists" of twisting scriptures and daring to question the sincerity of Jesus' words. The audience gasps at the audacity!
Pate, the loyal Arminian squire, quickly chimes in, declaring that Calvinists have chosen to follow the advocate of Satan himself – John Calvin. The tension in the theological arena rises.
Now, let's sprinkle some Calvinist wit into the mix:
"Oh, the twists and turns of Arminian acrobatics! Behold, the call to ALL – a universal invitation, they say. But wait, do they not realize the harmonious dance of sovereignty and grace in Calvin's theology?"
Cue the Calvinist quip, delivered with a twinkle in the eye:
"While they accuse us of twisting scriptures, let us unravel the free will fallacy they've embraced. John Calvin merely serves as a guide through the labyrinth of divine mysteries."
Big Boy Johnson, the Arminian troubadour, continues his lyrical protest:
"Jesus draws ALL, and His sacrifice is for ALL – a symphony of universal love! But alas, the Calvinists wear blinkers, unable to see beyond their predetermined path."
The Calvinist rejoinder, laced with theological finesse:
"Ah, the sweet melodies of universalism. But can they not hear the subtle notes of predestination in Calvin's masterpiece? A divine tapestry woven with threads of election."
As the theological banter unfolds, the audience is treated to a performance where Calvin's writings are wielded like a quill, scripting the defense of divine sovereignty amidst the Arminian theatrics. The comedy of Calvinism and Arminianism, a timeless play in the grand theater of theological discourse!

 

[Tulipbee]

The key issue here is how God choses those He saves. Given that Calvinism is tied to the false doctrine of Total Depravity, then Calvinism must reject the biblical definition of elect and redefine it in some other manner.

And Robert's statement is not a straw man. It is completely accurate.

Ah, the theological sparring continues, and the stage is set for a Calvinist comedy of divine proportions!

JBO, the anti-Calvinist virtuoso, steps onto the theological stage, and we, my dear audience, shall engage in a lighthearted exploration of predestination and election:

"Ah, my esteemed companions, Red Baker beckons us to consider the divine ballet of predestination. Picture this – a dance floor of eternal significance where election secures our redemption, and predestination, the cosmic choreographer's channel, leads us to our heavenly inheritance. A dance of grace and good pleasure, set to the rhythm of God's divine symphony."

But wait, JBO, the anti-Calvinist maestro, interjects with a note of skepticism:

"The key issue, my dear spectators, is the peculiar dance of choosing. How does God, in His divine extravaganza, select those for the grand performance of salvation? Ah, Total Depravity, the supposed false note in Calvin's composition. Could it be that Calvinism must perform an interpretative dance, redefining the biblical definition of the elect? A theological jig, if you will."

Now, let the Calvinist counterpoint commence:

"Ah, JBO, the skeptic in the divine ballroom! Fear not, for in Calvin's grand score, Total Depravity is the prelude to a dance of sovereignty. The biblical definition of the elect remains steadfast, woven into the divine tapestry of grace. A theological waltz where God, in His majestic choreography, leads the chosen ones to the celestial dance floor."

And so, the theological dance unfolds – a ballet of ideas pirouetting between Calvinist assurance and anti-Calvinist inquiries. Bravo to the performers in this grand spectacle!

 

[Robert Pate]

Ah, the theological sparring continues, and the stage is set for a Calvinist comedy of divine proportions!

JBO, the anti-Calvinist virtuoso, steps onto the theological stage, and we, my dear audience, shall engage in a lighthearted exploration of predestination and election:

"Ah, my esteemed companions, Red Baker beckons us to consider the divine ballet of predestination. Picture this – a dance floor of eternal significance where election secures our redemption, and predestination, the cosmic choreographer's channel, leads us to our heavenly inheritance. A dance of grace and good pleasure, set to the rhythm of God's divine symphony."

But wait, JBO, the anti-Calvinist maestro, interjects with a note of skepticism:

"The key issue, my dear spectators, is the peculiar dance of choosing. How does God, in His divine extravaganza, select those for the grand performance of salvation? Ah, Total Depravity, the supposed false note in Calvin's composition. Could it be that Calvinism must perform an interpretative dance, redefining the biblical definition of the elect? A theological jig, if you will."

Now, let the Calvinist counterpoint commence:

"Ah, JBO, the skeptic in the divine ballroom! Fear not, for in Calvin's grand score, Total Depravity is the prelude to a dance of sovereignty. The biblical definition of the elect remains steadfast, woven into the divine tapestry of grace. A theological waltz where God, in His majestic choreography, leads the chosen ones to the celestial dance floor."

And so, the theological dance unfolds – a ballet of ideas pirouetting between Calvinist assurance and anti-Calvinist inquiries. Bravo to the performers in this grand spectacle!

"If God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son", John 3:16. Then doesn't it make sense that God would provide a way for fallen man to be saved, without predestinating him to be saved. Predestination is a violation of man's free will. Predestination says "Man is to stupid to accept God's great free gift of salvation so I will have to make the choice for him". When it comes to making choices, God has given everyone a chance to be saved, "Whosever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

 

[Tulipbee]

"If God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son", John 3:16. Then doesn't it make sense that God would provide a way for fallen man to be saved, without predestinating him to be saved. Predestination is a violation of man's free will. Predestination says "Man is to stupid to accept God's great free gift of salvation so I will have to make the choice for him". When it comes to making choices, God has given everyone a chance to be saved, "Whosever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Ah, the theological stage is indeed a lively one, and the Calvinist comedy of divine proportions continues with Pate stepping into the spotlight. Let's unravel the layers of this theological performance with a touch of humor and Calvin's writings.
Pate, the theological troubadour, sings the melody of John 3:16, a familiar tune in the theological repertoire. "If God so loved the world," he croons, "doesn't it make sense that fallen man should have a say in accepting the divine invitation to salvation?" A harmonious notion, echoing the sentiments of man's free will.
But, dear Pate, let's not forget Calvin's symphony. In the grand orchestration of predestination, Calvinists argue that God's love and sovereignty dance hand in hand. The divine choreography, they contend, is not a violation of man's free will but a harmonious duet where God's grace takes center stage.
Romans 10:13, the anti-Calvinist's anthem, declares, "Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." A universal invitation to the dance floor, it seems. But Calvinists, with a twirl of interpretation, posit that this "whosoever" aligns with the elect, chosen by God's sovereign grace.
And so, the theological dance-off continues – a comedic ballet where Calvinist assurance waltzes with anti-Calvinist inquiries. Bravo to the performers in this grand spectacle of divine comedy! Shall we encore with more theological pirouettes?

 

[Red Baker]

"If God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son", John 3:16. Then doesn't it make sense that God would provide a way for fallen man to be saved, without predestinating him to be saved. Predestination is a violation of man's free will. Predestination says "Man is to stupid to accept God's great free gift of salvation so I will have to make the choice for him". When it comes to making choices, God has given everyone a chance to be saved, "Whosever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

A few things I will point out.

First~you asked: Then doesn't it make sense....by this statement you are saying that you have a better way then what God has clearly given testimony to as displaying in wisdom and power in sending his Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin, condemning sin by his own righteous life living in the flesh, in perfect obedience to the word of God ~ a life that God said he was well pleased with.

Predestination is a violation of man's free will according to you.

Robert, because of flesh and blood, even though created upright, he still did not possess the infinite attributes of God...

Man was destined to fall, even though created with a free will....a will which became in bondage the very second he sinned, and he became dead in his sin and trepasses.......thereby, God had an election of grace to secure some from the fall~all of his grace, nothing within man that moved God to show mercy, he did so according to the good pleasure of his will.

After Adam's fall he no longer had a free will, his will was under bondage to his new master, the devil himself.

Luke 4:18,19~"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord."

The Pharisees like you did not believe that their will was under the bondage of sin and Satan.

John 8:32-36~"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed."

Another subject for another day. Well one more:

Romans 9:17~"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

Predestination says "Man is to stupid to accept God's great free gift of salvation so I will have to make the choice for him"

God knew that man after his fall could not delivered himself from the power of sin and the devil..... impossible, besides, he truly does not desire to leave the life of pleasure that he vainly believes sin is giving him! Not until God quickens his dead heart to see, understand and with the power to believe, will any ever leave the pleasures of sin. I'm withholding scriptures proofs until you are willing to enter into a serious dialogue with me.

 

[Robert Pate]

A few things I will point out.

First~you asked: Then doesn't it make sense....by this statement you are saying that you have a better way then what God has clearly given testimony to as displaying in wisdom and power in sending his Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, for sin, condemning sin by his own righteous life living in the flesh, in perfect obedience to the word of God ~ a life that God said he was well pleased with.

Predestination is a violation of man's free will according to you.

Robert, because of flesh and blood, even though created upright, he still did not possess the infinite attributes of God...

Man was destined to fall, even though created with a free will....a will which became in bondage the very second he sinned, and he became dead in his sin and trepasses.......thereby, God had an election of grace to secure some from the fall~all of his grace, nothing within man that moved God to show mercy, he did so according to the good pleasure of his will.

After Adam's fall he no longer had a free will, his will was under bondage to his new master, the devil himself.


The Pharisees like you did not believe that their will was under the bondage of sin and Satan.


Another subject for another day. Well one more:




God knew that man after his fall could not delivered himself from the power of sin and the devil..... impossible, besides, he truly does not desire to leave the life of pleasure that he vainly believes sin is giving him! Not until God quickens his dead heart to see, understand and with the power to believe, will any ever leave the pleasures of sin. I'm withholding scriptures proofs until you are willing to enter into a serious dialogue with me.

The flying insect wants us to believe that there is some virtue in God sending people to hell before they are born.

 

[Scott Downey]

Sir, I'll give you credit more so than the two posters before you, you at least labored to use scriptures, even if not applied properly. Now, to answer your post.

In the spirit in which God commands us, in all meekness, and kindness knowing that we could very easily be on the other side spewing out our hatred toward God, if he had not first love us and called us out darkness into his marvelous light. If he had not done so, we know we would have never chosen him over our love for sin and all of its ungodly lust.

Man's vain thoughts are that we have chosen Christ, yet the Lord clearly stated that it was him that first loved us, which cause him to elect us to be his children. His love was prompt solely by his own will.

We do not teach that only a few will ultimately will be saved from sin and condemnation~It was said to Rebekah.......


Indeed the thousands of millions of God's elect will possess the gates of all those that hate them, because we faithfully proclaim the salvation of the Lord. The devil hates this truth since he was not one of the elect angels, thereby he and his babies serpents fight against this one particular truth.

Sir, God indeed did make man in his own image~that image consist in knowledge, understanding and true holiness, and yes Adam and Eve did indeed have a free will~but they sinned and lost that image and took on the image of Satan, a depraved nature under the power of darkness and sin.

When Adam had a son he was born after his fallen likeness not in the image in which he was created.

Adam did not have a son in God's image but in his own likeness/image. Sinful flesh can only produce flesh which Paul describes for us in details in Romans 8.

A very dark commentary concerning our flesh~but a very faithful and true commentary we might add.


"All".... not all without exceptions, but all without distinction~Jews and Gentiles, men from all nations on this earth.

Concerning not willing that any should perish....... we must allow the context to drive our understanding, we must not not isolate certain words, or, play upon the mere sounds of word to promote our own doctrine. The verse reads thus:

To be very short, mockers mocking the Lord's promise return, know nothing all all, for our God is not slack concerning his promises to his children, the only reason why he has delay is to that he is not willing that any perish, that is, He's following his ordained perfect plan in bringing many sons to glory~the "usward" is connected to verse one of chapter one.........."to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:"....The Lord indeed is longsuffering to USWARD.


Sir, please stay with the context which is king of all correct interpretations. Faith in Romans 12 is speaking of the gifts given to body of believers~ it has not one thing about all men given faith to believe for we know that that is not so.

Again, you are playing upon mere sounds of words without comparing scriptures with scriptures. All is all without distinction, no longer is God the God of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles, yet among both of these he as an elect people. It is not that difficult~yet, one's eyes must be opened by God to see any truth of the scriptures. Matthew 13:11; etc.


Why use John Calvin's name, many people taught this before Calvin~Why not start with Christ, who clearly taught the doctrine of election of grace.

Going back to image. Notice this verse,
Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Good summary of all that is being discussed is found in that verse.

We get back that image Adam and Eve lost in the garden of God, where we are now predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, all done by the power of God for us. Truly our salvation is 100% certain and secure as God is the one doing the predestining and not we ourselves, and no one should desire it any other way. If salvation was dependent on the man, it just would never happen as people scripture tells us again and again have no desire for God and godliness unless He changes their hearts.

This foreknowing is those whom God foreknew as in a relationship of love, the great love He had for them, and the love they had for God.

Even Ephesians 2 exposes to us our prior empty way of life, handed down to us by all those who came before us, following after the devil and the lusts of the flesh. It was only God's great love for us that caused our knowing Him intimately. We were all once children of wrath as the others.

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

 

[Scott Downey]

And then this in Hebrews 12 about those whom the Lord loves. Those without this chastening are not loved by the Lord are they as they are not sons whom He is receiving.

The Discipline of God​

3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the [c]chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If[d] you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.

 

[Scott Downey]

More on the Love of God, how it is manifested towards US and not towards the others...
2 Thess 2

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stand Fast​

13 But we are [f]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [g]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and [i]establish you in every good word and work.

God chose from the beginning, as in before time began, that we would believe and belong to Him. And so it is.

 

[BlessedPeace]

This is a very proud statement coming from man, who is less than vanity!

I'm reminded of this scripture when I hear man making such s statement:


Sir, I have one word for you~Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

I do not have to defend God, he is more than able to speak for himself and he has in the scriptures quoted above.

Understanding the whole picture, we know that the Creator of all things did everything perfectly and in perfect order. God willed to have a people to know him, and share his glory with. Yet, anything that God created would be less than he was, impossible for them to have his infinite attributes one being impossible for God to be tempted with evil. Knowing this, he had an election of grace among both angels and man~thus the meaning of elect according to the foreknowledge of God~1st Peter 1:2.

God was not under obligation to save anyone, yet in his mercy he purposed to preserved some from the second death, which is perishing in the lake of fire. There is no such doctrine of a present burning hell where the wicked go at death, that's a RCC doctrine where purgatory gets its teachings from~another study for another thread.


Sir, I can turn that right around and say the same to you in your hatred against God's sovereignty.


What God foresaw was that NONE would had been saved, if he did not in mercy, preserve some by electing them, in spite of what they would have done if left to themselves. I have heard it said that grace is unmerited favor, actually is in demerited favor toward sinners who seek their own destruction, if left to themselves~ we see it every day in the world in which we are living in.

When you see him remind him of that in which you are now so proudly proclaiming~pretty sure your loins will be too loose for you to say even a word.

Legally, sinners are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ...

This one scripture ( and there are others as well ) is the gospel in a nutshell! Sinners are justified by the faith/obedience and righteousness of Jesus Christ...period! Read also: Romans 3:21-24; Philippians 3:0, etc.

Christians live under, "the system of faith: whereby we know our justification by faith in the word of God! a big different~Romans 4:1-5:1 etc.

A strawman argument~what does this have to do with such scriptures as Romans 9, etc?

Results in? What do you mean by this statement? What results in sinners being justified and God be just in doing so, is that Christ was made a perfect suety for them!

Enough for now. I want to come back and comment on a few more thing

You're new. If you check Robert Pates profile and posts you'll find he is obsessed with attacking Calvinism.
He's expanded his fixation to include Pentecostalism of late. And he minored in condemning religion.

He needs prayer. Not encouragement to continue in his depravity. You,no one of us,shall ever lead him out of this darkness. He will obviously be encouraged by our posts so to continue in his fixation.


He's sick.
And that is unfortunate.

 

[Scott Downey]

This holy calling, only given to those God has foreknown as His people, the children of God. And it occurred before time began.
God cannot deny Himself as He knows all things from before the beginning to the very end of every age to come. It just is one of those God things.

2 Timothy 1
8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

 

[Robert Pate]

Jim,

The wording of Robert's statement is a straw man logical argument.

Let approach the doctrine the manner in which we read of predestination from God's very own testimony.

So, why would not any sincere believer not consider the doctrine of predestination, if we read the above scriptures with a honest child like faith?

Of course, election of grace and predestination are two separate doctrine taught in the scriptures. Election secures our eternal redemption, while predestination is the channel through which God brings us unto our eternal inheritance all which is according to his own good pleasure.

Now, if you, Robert or, Big Boy Johnson, desires to look at these scriptures and give your understanding, then I'm here to do so with all three of you, or one at a time, it makes no difference to me.

There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible that says God predestinates people to heaven or to hell.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

You cannot prove your statement of God calling all human beings.

Sure I can! But, those that have been indoctrinated by the calvinism mindset to always hold to calvinism rather than the Word of God... cannot accept what God's Word actually says since one has to be a cherry picker to believe calvinism!

ALL of these scripture truths refute limited atonement.... calvinists must ignore or explain away these quotes from the Lord's Word to keep their chicanery going...

Romans 8:29,30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 5:1
Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children

Romans 1:19-21
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Again there are Christians that take the time and labor to put the proper sense upon all scriptures by following both Paul and Isaiah and Ezra.

You obviously have been blinded to the truth of God's Word... I hope that gets better for you!

I have explain such verses as you mentioned above in my post. If you need me to do sos again, then let us do this together one on one debate in the spirit of godly meekness, that others may learn.

Calvinism has already been debunked and has long been defunct...
What the Lord says in His Word is Truth! Scripture twisting does not end well.

What the unrepentant murderer John calvin says is a meaningless fairy tale. Good luck with all that!

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

If you check Robert Pates profile and posts you'll find he is obsessed with attacking Calvinism.

That's because the man has the common sense to compare what calvinism teaches to what God's Word teaches... and he noticed calvinism came up short!

 

[Red Baker]

What the unrepentant murderer John calvin says is a meaningless fairy tale. Good luck with all that!

Is that the best you can do? I do not defend men, or even a sect, Baptist, Presbyterianism, Church of Christ, or, Pentecostalism sects, and a hundred's more that could be named.

All you are doing by saying John Calvin was a murderer, ( you are adding unrepentant as though you were there and knew his heart, ) are jumping on the bandwagon of logical fallacy~ which is a fallacy based on the assumption that the opinion of the majority is always valid: that is, everyone believes it, so you should too. It is also called an appeal to popularity, the authority of the many, and argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people").

God will hold you accountable for murdering a person character you know nothing about if you personally have not heard him, read carefully behind him, or you were not eye witness of his actions, etc. If i were you, I would be very careful speaking evil of someone I truly know nothing about. It is folk like you that would have believe every words of the lying Scribes, Pharisees, lawyers of Jesus' day concerning the person of Jesus Christ. I'm sure many atheists condemns the religion of the word of God, by saying Moses and David, was a murderers. People look for ways of rejecting truth, and generally use the easiest aviable way of doing so~the bandwagon fallacy is one of them.

I'll come back and address you other words separately.