CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity
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Jesus contrasts those who have seen Christ and His miracles and do not believe with those that are given to Him by the Father (as in His foreknown elect) and that is why they do come to Christ and believe
John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--
The point is that "Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me-"
That means that it is they who hear and learn from the Father that comes to Jesus. That is fully consistent with Romans 10: 17,
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
It is those who believe that are saved and become the elect, not vice versa.
Ok, I have explained before, I will leave you to believe what you believe and wish you well finding Gods truth.
We are all searching for Gods truth in his word....God Bless.
I will leave you with this.
Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstbornamong many brethren.
Romans 8:29
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstbornamong many brethren.
What does it mean that God predestined those He foreknew (Romans 8:29)?
Interesting commentary.In several contexts Paul describes how God is sovereign and involved in the process of people being justified(declared righteous). In Romans 8:29 Paul explains that we can learn some important things about God because of His election: “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.”
Just before he mentions the fact that God predestined those He foreknew, Paul makes the striking statement that God causes all things to work together for those who love God and are called according to His purposes (Romans 8:28). That statement gives believers in Christ confidence that, even when circumstances are discouraging, they can know that God is in control and has a plan.
Paul then provides detail to show the trustworthiness of God in working all things together for good. Those whom God foreknew He predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus (Romans 8:29a). We learn a couple key points about God here. First, we discover that God has foreknowledge of people before they even exist. Jeremiah records that God knew and consecrated him before he was born (Jeremiah 1:5). David wrote that God had written all of David’s days in a book, ordaining them before they began (Psalm 139:16).
Second, we learn that God does indeed predestine certain people (that is, He “determines beforehand,” “ordains,” “decides ahead of time” who will be saved). In Ephesians 1 Paul explains that God the Father chose believers to be in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) and predestined believers to adoption as sons of God (Ephesians 1:5).
The Bible teaches that God foreknows and predestines His children, and this presents some challenging questions regarding whether people can choose—or does God’s sovereignty preclude human ability to choose? Historically, the Calvinist position has emphasized God’s sovereignty over human choice, while the Arminian position elevates human choice over God’s sovereignty. These two theological traditions attempt to resolve the perceived tension between human choice and God’s choice. The Bible makes things a bit simpler than do the two traditions.
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The Holy Spirit is the Christians guide and teacher, "Howbeit when he the Spirit of truth is come, (He arrived on the day of Pentecost, Acts 2) he will guide you into all truth. For he shall not speak of himself (nor will one that possess the Spirit) But whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. For he shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine (The Gospel) and shall show it unto you" John 16:13-14.
Romans 10:17 in context begins v16
Some heard and not believed.
Some heard and believed.
What was the difference?
Those who had faith believed the message.
How does faith come?
It comes by hearing.
How does hearing come?
It comes by the word of God spoken into them. The receive that from God personally.
God in the OT spoke to His prophets and people like Noah and Abraham, it is how they got their faith in God
The word of the Lord came to them. Today is really the same idea.
By the way , this 'word' in the Greek is rhema vs logos and is the active directed to a person, spoken form for word, logos is passive, written.
blog.biblesforamerica.org
"The lesser-known of these two Greek words is rhema, which is used to refer to the instant, personal speaking of God.
Our God isn’t silent; He’s a speaking God. His written word is a record of His speaking. But that’s not all. He continues to speak today, and He wants to speak directly to us.
It’s by the rhema word that we can know God subjectively, in our personal experience"
They hear it being spoken to them from God, His Spirit to their spirits.
They get faith from that spoken word from God
Then they believe.
This also agrees with Jesus in John 8
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who [b]preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:
“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:
“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But to Israel he says:
“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”
Some heard and not believed.
Some heard and believed.
What was the difference?
Those who had faith believed the message.
How does faith come?
It comes by hearing.
How does hearing come?
It comes by the word of God spoken into them. The receive that from God personally.
God in the OT spoke to His prophets and people like Noah and Abraham, it is how they got their faith in God
The word of the Lord came to them. Today is really the same idea.
By the way , this 'word' in the Greek is rhema vs logos and is the active directed to a person, spoken form for word, logos is passive, written.
Two Important Greek Words in the Bible: Logos and Rhema
The Bible uses two Greek words for “word” in the New Testament: logos and rhema. Find out the meaning of these words and how they impact our Christian life.
blog.biblesforamerica.org
"The lesser-known of these two Greek words is rhema, which is used to refer to the instant, personal speaking of God.
Our God isn’t silent; He’s a speaking God. His written word is a record of His speaking. But that’s not all. He continues to speak today, and He wants to speak directly to us.
It’s by the rhema word that we can know God subjectively, in our personal experience"
They hear it being spoken to them from God, His Spirit to their spirits.
They get faith from that spoken word from God
Then they believe.
This also agrees with Jesus in John 8
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who [b]preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”
19 But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:
“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a foolish nation.”
20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:
“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
21 But to Israel he says:
“All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”
“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
How can such a thing happen?
Well it can because God came into their lives and personally intervened on their behalf to save them by the gift of faith.
You know faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit?
God has given to every believer a measure of faith.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”
How can such a thing happen?
Well it can because God came into their lives and personally intervened on their behalf to save them by the gift of faith.
You know faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit?
God has given to every believer a measure of faith.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
Galatians 5 and the fruits of the Spirit, one of which faithfulness.
All these fruits are a result of the work God does in your life by His Spirit.
A farmer tills up the soil and brings in a harvest. God is at work within you.
He began that good work in you before you believed and were obedient to the message of the gospel.
He works all things for your good, that is for those who will believe
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 [g]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Ephesians 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
All these fruits are a result of the work God does in your life by His Spirit.
A farmer tills up the soil and brings in a harvest. God is at work within you.
He began that good work in you before you believed and were obedient to the message of the gospel.
He works all things for your good, that is for those who will believe
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: [d]adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, [f]murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 [g]gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Ephesians 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
The only ones that are saved in the New Testament are those that have accepted Christ as their savior. That is the beginning of all understanding of the scriptures, Jesus said, "That whosoever believes in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16. This is basic Christianity.
Now some want to try and fit Calvinism and a myriad of other beliefs into this and in doing that they have perverted basic Christianity, and the Gospel. I let the Historical Gospel of Jesus Christ call all things into question, Not a few questionable scriptures.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
I don't know if the Bible makes things simpler, but I do know that the Bible says that neither one of those two positions is true. They are traditions of men. I just personally believe that one of those traditions is closer to the truth. And that isn't the Calvinist position since it makes a mockery of God's true graciousness.
And by the way, the Arminian position does not elevate human choice over God's sovereignty. Human choice is established through God's sovereignty.
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Is that why Peter was crucified upside down?
Is that why all the apostles except possibly John are said to have been martyred?
What is the "good" spoken of in Romans 8:28?
If that farmer that you mentioned tills up the soil and the harvest fails completely, does that mean that God is not at work within him?
Your not making much sense here.
None of what your saying destroys the faithfulness of God and what God said about our salvation
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
Being crucified upside down and being martyred is out of place in the context of good in Romans 8:28 as the context has to do with our becoming saved....
| Romans 8 ► |
(Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26) 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you. Heirs with Christ 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him. Future Glory (2 Corinthians 5:1–10) 18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. God Works in All Things (Ephesians 1:3–14) 28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. 31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. More than Conquerors (Psalm 44:1–26) 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”g 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. |
Looks like not much truth being shared in this cauldron of umbrage....
| Romans 8 ► |
(Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26) 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you. Heirs with Christ 12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation, but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit of slavery that returns you to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17And if we are children, then we are heirs: heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—if indeed we suffer with Him, so that we may also be glorified with Him. Future Glory (2 Corinthians 5:1–10) 18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently. 26In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know how we ought to pray, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words. 27And He who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. God Works in All Things (Ephesians 1:3–14) 28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. 31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us. More than Conquerors (Psalm 44:1–26) 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: “For Your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”g 37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. |
You were the one making reference to the farmer tilling the soil and it is bringing in a harvest that was a witness of God at work within us. If you think that is any part of the "good" that is being addressed in verse 28, then please explain it.
The faithfulness of God and what God said about our salvation is not found in the success or failure of the farmer's crops. There has been more than a few faithful Christians that have starved to death and that has no bearing on whether or not God is a t work within us. God has caused the rain to fall on the believer and the atheist.
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