Well now, common sense is not that common anymore, and he certainly is proving that to be so with all of his vain jangling.
CALVINISM: The height of Spiritual depravity
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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Well now, looking at the scriptures you presented without any commenting on them to prove your point, I say you did a very elementary attempt and truly did nothing to help your position.
Let me start out by saying, I was never indoctrinated by the calvinism mindset at the beginning of my walk with Christ, I first started out fifty years ago in my mid twenties as an Independent fundamental Baptist~in Greenville, South Carolina, among Oliver B. Greene and Harold Sighter two of the biggest names at that time in that movement. That was 1974. Went to Bible college there, but soon left, since the books that they required and other books I bought on my own were teaching two different gospels altogether. They had a bookstore at the college and I got a hold of some books and read them carefully and they opened my eyes to the truth. I devoured them very carefully, or as careful as I knew how. A.W. Pink's book on the sovereignty of God by Baker house was my eye opener, and from there, I read all of his books, many of Jonathan Edwards, John Gill, etc. Never read Calvin's until years later maybe fifteen or so.
The teachings of men of God who held to calvinism and arminianism were as different as night and day, the night being arminianism.
That being said, I do not hold to the position that all arminians are lost, far from that, since regeneration is not based on one's understanding of the truth, for God has children are in many different sect, just that they are not yet converted to the truth. I agree that there are many false cults in this world, but they are know by their doctrine on the person of Jesus Christ, more so than how they believe on other doctrines.
It was the testimony of the word of God that moved me to search out the truth in what I was hearing in comparison to what was reading from the Bible when I first started out as a young man in my mid twenties.
At first, I was being indoctrinated by arminianism....not Calvinism. I have changed........ have you?
I'll come back and consider your scriptures.
Sir, why just quote scriptures and never give your commentary on them by using other scriptures. Isolating scriptures and just using sound bites proves very little, if anything ~ all cults can do what you have done above. Scriptures have a biblical sense that must be given before one can truly have the right understanding of them. That has been proven above in our posts. Please go back and read our quote from Nehemiah 8:8; 2nd Timothy 2:15 and Isaiah 28. The only person using chicanery would be folks like you ( no pun intended ) by just throwing out mere sounds of words that seems favorable toward your understanding. The main person you are deceiving would be yourself, if that is your manner of using scriptures.
My...... surprised me that this is your first scripture that you chose to put forth to refute unconditional predestination/election/ or, Calvinism as you and others love to call this doctrine. I'll start with v28 for all three go hand in hand.
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
And we know...That all things.....Work together for good....To them that love God.The wonderful words and comforting promise of this verse only apply to them that love God! There is no value in these words simply used as a mantra by those who do not love God
To them who are the called.
Those who love God with this promise are also identified as them who are the called of God. If any man loves God, it is because God has already called him to this love (I John 4:19). What does it mean to be called of God? It means God chose and appointed us His child! Our calling is our chosen or appointed role or vocation (I Cor 7:17-24; Eph 4:1 cp 5:1).
God’s call can be appointment, or regeneration as a son, or the gospel call to act like one. The call here is different and more than an invitation, offer, or request for us to choose. It is God’s charge, command, order, and ordination that result in us being sons of God. The Romans were called of God (Rom 1:6-7), or elect of God (I Cor 1:24-29; I Pet 1:2).
The point here is that the declared facts of 8:28 are only for those called of God to be His. God’s purpose to work all things in their lives together for good is only true of His sons.
Observe the strong passive voice of this phrase, which exalts God and minimizes man. It does not say, “To them who are calling,” or, “To them who have called.” No, not at all. It does not even say, “To them who are called,” or, “To them who have been called.” It identifies them as the called, which emphatically intends those God Himself has called.
The gospel call to be sons is nothing compared to God’s authoritative call, appointment, ordination, or regeneration to be His sons (Matt 22:14; Rom 9:11; Eph 1:3-12; I Pet 2:9). The gospel call always follows God’s sovereign call (I Cor 1:22-31; II Thess 2:13-14). There is more about this operation of calling in the golden chain of grace next (8:29-30).
According to His purpose.
The calling or vocation we receive from God is according to his purpose, not at all our own. Salvation and calling are by God’s eternal purpose in Christ, not our works (II Tim 1:9). If God has been merciful to us, it is according to His own good will (Matt 11:25-26). The purpose of God in our lives as vessels of mercy has a most good and glorious end!
Verse 29 next....
v29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
He had declared in the foregoing verse that all things work together for good to them who love God; but as it is always necessary to keep in mind that our love to God is not the cause of His love to us, nor, consequently, of the privileges with which we are favored, but the effects of His loving us, Deuteronomy 7:6-8; Jeremiah 1:5."For whom He did foreknow"~The word foreknow has three significations. One is general, importing simply a knowledge of things before they come into existence. In this general sense it is evident that it is not employed in this passage, since it is limited to those whom God predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son. He foreknows all things before they come to pass; but here foreknowledge refers only to particular individuals.
A second signification is a knowledge accompanied by a decree. In this sense it signifies ordinance and providence, as it is said, Acts 2:23, ‘Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God;’ that is to say, by the ordinance and providence of God. The reason why this word is used to denote the Divine determinations is because the foreknowledge of God necessarily implies His purpose or decree with respect to the thing foreknown. For God foreknows what will be, by determining what shall be. God’s foreknowledge cannot in itself be the cause of any event; but events must be produced by His decree and ordination. It is not because God foresees a thing that it is decreed; but He foresees it because it is ordained by Him to happen in the order of His providence. Therefore His foreknowledge and decrees cannot be separated; for the one implies the other. When He decrees that a thing shall be, He foresees that it will be. There is nothing known as what will be, which is not certainly to be; and there is nothing certainly to be, unless it is ordained that it shall be. All the foreknowledge of future events, then, is founded on the decree of God; consequently He determined with Himself from eternity everything He executes in time, Acts 15:18. Nothing is contingent in the mind of God, who foresees and orders all events according to His own eternal and unchangeable will. Jesus Christ was not delivered by God fore knowing it before it took place, but by His fixed counsel and ordination, or His providence. Thus believers are called elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, 1 Peter 1:2; and in the same chapter, ver. 19, 20, the Apostle Peter says that Jesus Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world. Here foreknown signifies, as it is rendered, fore-ordained.
The third signification of this word consists in a knowledge of love and approbation; and in this sense it signifies to choose and recognize as His own, as it is said, Romans 11:2, ‘God hath not cast away His people whom He foreknew,’ — that is, whom He had before loved and chosen; for the Apostle alleges this foreknowledge as the reason why God had not rejected His people. In this manner the word ‘know’ is often taken in Scripture in the sense of knowing with affection, loving, approving; as in the first Psalm, ‘The Lord knoweth the way of the righteous; but the way of the ungodly shall perish.’ To know the way of the just, is to love, to approve, as appears by the antithesis. Paul says to the Corinthians, ‘If any man love God, the same is know of Him,’ 1 Corinthians 8:3; and to the Galatians, ‘But now after ye have known God or rather are known of Him.’ In the same way, God said by His Prophet to Israel, ‘You only have I known of all the families of the earth,’ Amos 3:2. At the day of judgment Jesus Christ will say to hypocrites, ‘I never knew you,’ Matthew 7:23; that is to say, He never loved or acknowledged them, although He perfectly knew their characters and actions. In this last sense the word foreknow is employed in the passage before us. Those whom God foreknew — those whom He before loved, chose, acknowledged as His own — He predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son It is not a general anticipated knowledge that is here intended. The Apostle does not speak of all, but of some, whom in verse 33 he calls ‘God’s elect;’ and not of anything in their persons, or belonging to them, but of the persons themselves, whom it is said God foreknew. And He adds, that those whom He foreknew He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son; and whom he predestinated He also called, and justified, and glorified.
By foreknowledge, then, is not here meant a foreknowledge of faith or good works, or of concurrence with the external call Faith cannot be the cause of foreknowledge, because foreknowledge is before predestination, and faith is the effect of predestination. ‘As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,’ Acts 13:48. Neither can it be meant of the foreknowledge of good works, because these are the effects of predestination. ‘We are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works; which God hath before ordained (or before prepared) that we should walk in them,’ Ephesians 2:10. Neither can it be meant of foreknowledge of our concurrence with the external call, because our effectual calling depends not upon that concurrence, but upon God’s purpose and grace, given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, Timothy 1:9. By this foreknowledge, then, is meant, as has been observed, the love of God towards those whom He predestinates to be saved through Jesus Christ. All the called of God are foreknown by Him, — that is, they are the objects of His eternal love, and their calling comes from this free love. ‘I have loved thee with an everlasting love; therefore with loving-kindness I have drawn thee,’ Jeremiah 31:3. He also did predestinate. — Foreknowledge and predestination are distinguished. The one is the choice of persons, the other the destination of those persons to the blessings for which they are designed. To predestinate signifies to appoint beforehand to some particular end. In Scripture it is taken sometimes generally for any decree of God, as in Acts 4:28, where the Apostles say that the Jews were assembled to do whatsoever the hand and the counsel of God had determined (predestinated) before to be done. And Paul says, 1 Corinthians 2:7, ‘We speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom which God ordained (predestinated) before the world unto our glory.’
I'll come back and finish this verse later....
Those who worship God and are saved, God wrote their names in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. So before they were born or had done anything good or bad, God's calling according to election shall stand and be true. It is also after all that God is eternal and this is an eternal work, our salvation, as salvation is of the Lord.
Jonah 2:9
But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.”
Acts 15:18
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Alternatively, those whose names are not written therein the Book of Life at the beginning of time, worship the Beast and his image.
And proves the following true as well, that God from the beginning chose those He loved to obtain the glory of Christ (be saved)
13 But we are [a]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [b]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.
Jonah 2:9
But I will sacrifice to You With the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay what I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.”
Acts 15:18
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Alternatively, those whose names are not written therein the Book of Life at the beginning of time, worship the Beast and his image.
And proves the following true as well, that God from the beginning chose those He loved to obtain the glory of Christ (be saved)
13 But we are [a]bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through [b]sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He [a]made us accepted in the Beloved.
God's love manifested towards us is why we live through Him. It is why we are saved out of His great love for us.
We did not love God and so then He saved us, no, we were following the devil and fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. But God loved us with His great love and saved us by His mercy. God has compassion and mercy on whom He will.
Titus 3
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
19 We love [c]Him because He first loved us.
1 john 3
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of [a]God! Therefore the world does not know [b]us, because it did not know Him.
John 15:9
Jesus intercedes (prays) not for the world but only for those God has given to Him. And we are NOT of the world, as we before the world was were chosen by God to belong to Him and not to the world and not be of the world., we are of God, (talking of someone God has saved-redeemed from destruction)
John 17
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world
We did not love God and so then He saved us, no, we were following the devil and fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. But God loved us with His great love and saved us by His mercy. God has compassion and mercy on whom He will.
Titus 3
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
1 John 4
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
19 We love [c]Him because He first loved us.
1 john 3
1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of [a]God! Therefore the world does not know [b]us, because it did not know Him.
John 15:9
“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
Jesus intercedes (prays) not for the world but only for those God has given to Him. And we are NOT of the world, as we before the world was were chosen by God to belong to Him and not to the world and not be of the world., we are of God, (talking of someone God has saved-redeemed from destruction)
John 17
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world
God predestinating any man to hell? What a lack of Biblical knowledge this statement shows. Did God force Adam & Eve to disobey Him, or did they freely choose to disobey Him? God created them "very good", and still they of their own free will chose to listen to the voice of evil and eat from the tree God had forbidden. Man brought themselves under the bondage of death, God didn't have to predestine man for death, man chose death rather than to submit to God. The opinion that God chooses to condemn to death SOME of mankind and not others, misunderstands how the curse of death is upon EVERY human from birth, since sin, and death through sin was the choice man made for themselves.
Then we read BUT GOD... determined that mankind would be saved, pours out His mercy and grace upon whosoever among the mass of humanity that shall be saved. Whosoever is born of God, are His elect chosen from the foundation of the world. And through them humankind by grace through faith shall be saved. Instead of arguing over something as ridiculous as the notion that God predestined some men to die, our time is far better spent is learning of the goodness and mercy God shows to mankind by sending His Son to redeem from bondage to sin and death that His creation shall not be altogether lost.
Understand, we are ALL (without exception) under the bondage of death through sin, because we all sin. But through the Gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit, whosoever among mankind who believe shall be saved. Our time is much more wisely spent sharing the goodness of God's mercy and grace with all of mankind, rather than worrying about who will die in their sins. Assume we are all destined to die apart from the love of God that is found in Christ our Lord, and all man must do is BELIEVE!
Then we read BUT GOD... determined that mankind would be saved, pours out His mercy and grace upon whosoever among the mass of humanity that shall be saved. Whosoever is born of God, are His elect chosen from the foundation of the world. And through them humankind by grace through faith shall be saved. Instead of arguing over something as ridiculous as the notion that God predestined some men to die, our time is far better spent is learning of the goodness and mercy God shows to mankind by sending His Son to redeem from bondage to sin and death that His creation shall not be altogether lost.
Understand, we are ALL (without exception) under the bondage of death through sin, because we all sin. But through the Gospel of the Kingdom of God proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit, whosoever among mankind who believe shall be saved. Our time is much more wisely spent sharing the goodness of God's mercy and grace with all of mankind, rather than worrying about who will die in their sins. Assume we are all destined to die apart from the love of God that is found in Christ our Lord, and all man must do is BELIEVE!
In giving the typical Calvinist interpretation of those three verses, you get it wrong. Your premise boils down to claiming God foreknew those He predestined. That in itself is a rather preposterous claim. It certainly doesn't give much positive acclaim to God's power of foreknowledge. That is not foreknowledge, that is simply memory for which of course God's is perfect. But if that is truly the meaning, then why mention foreknowledge at all? Such foreknowledge is not discriminative.
But I will wait until you finish to comment further on that passage.
But I will wait until you finish to comment further on that passage.
Since God knows all things, He also knows what He is going to do before He does it.
That is why it says in
Acts 15:18
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.
And that includes those He saves and those He does not save. The past, the future, the present are all known by God. This is something man has no control over. We are saved in time, but we are foreknown before time began.
Isaiah 46
“Remember this, and [b]show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
That is why it says in
Acts 15:18
“Known to God from eternity are all His works.
And that includes those He saves and those He does not save. The past, the future, the present are all known by God. This is something man has no control over. We are saved in time, but we are foreknown before time began.
Isaiah 46
“Remember this, and [b]show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
God Works in All Things
(Ephesians 1:3–14)
28And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.
31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34Who is there to condemn us? For Christ Jesus, who died, and more than that was raised to life, is at the right hand of God—and He is interceding for us.
Acts 13:48 is a verse that is dearly loved by the Calvinist/Reformed Theology groups. And that is understandable because it is misinterpreted by nearly every English translation available.
This text, Acts 13:48, summarizes the response of the Gentiles to the powerful preaching of the Apostle Paul at Antioch of Pisidia. Here is how the ESV translates it: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”
As usually translated, it is very true that this passage sounds as if it is supporting the key Calvinist doctrine of unconditional predestination. This is the idea that in His eternal pre-creation counsels and plans, God surveyed all the human beings whom He would ultimately bring into existence, all of whom as a result of Adam’s sin would become guilty of sin and condemned to hell. By God’s decree this universal sinfulness would also involve universal total depravity, including the loss of all free-will ability to turn toward God for salvation. The only way anyone could ever be saved was if God worked some basic supernatural change within the human heart that would not only make faith possible but would also actually implant that faith within the heart as an irresistible and irrevocable gift. (This last point is the Calvinist notion of irresistible grace—the “I” in TULIP).
Thus as Calvinists see it, God in His eternal counsels surveyed all of these future helpless sinners and determined to save some of them; and He also determined precisely which ones He would save and which ones He would allow to remain in their sin and be condemned to eternity in hell. Why He decided to choose (elect) these specific sinners and not the others is not known to us. The fact is that He unconditionally chose some, and appointed or predestined them to become believers and thus inherit eternal life.
We can see how the usual translations of Acts 13:48 support this Calvinist view: only those appointed (ESV, NIV, NASB, NKJV) or destined (NRSV) or pre-destined (Weymouth) or ordained (KJV, ASV) or chosen (TEV) for eternal life actually became believers.
The question is this: how can this be reconciled with the non-Calvinist view? The key lies in the form of the main Greek verb, tassō. The basic meaning of this verb is “to place, to order, to appoint, to ordain, to determine, to arrange in order.” As it appears in this text, the verb form is the participle tetagmenoi. It is obvious that most simply assume that this is the PASSIVE form of the verb, thus: “to be appointed, to be ordained, to be destined.” What is often forgotten is that in the Greek language, often the passive and the middle form of verbs are spelled exactly the same way. That is the case here. The word tetagmenoi can also be the MIDDLE form of the verb. Here is the main point: that is how it should be understood in Acts 13:48, i.e., as middle voice.
What does this verse mean, then? The middle voice of a verb in Greek is sometimes used in a reflexive sense. The idea is that the action of the verb is something performed by the subject (not by someone else upon the subject), but in such a way that the action is directed back toward the subject or the self. Understanding that the verb means “to place, to set, to arrange in a certain order or position,” we can see that the statement in 13:48 can quite validly be taken thus: “As many as arranged themselves unto (eis) eternal life believed,” or “As many as turned themselves toward eternal life believed,” or “As many as disposed themselves toward eternal life believed.”
Why should we accept this approach to the verb—i.e., as middle voice rather than passive? For three reasons. First, that very same form of the Greek work appears also in Acts 20:13 where we read, "But going ahead to the ship, we set sail for Assos, intending to take Paul aboard there, for so he had arranged, intending himself to go by land."
Second, it agrees with the general overall teaching of Scripture, that turning toward God is a matter of free will and personal responsibility, not something unconditionally and irresistibly caused by God.
Third, this agrees with the context, where the Jews’ response to the gospel is being contrasted with that of the Gentiles. In Acts 13:13-41 Paul preached a powerful Sabbath sermon in the Jews’ synagogue at Antioch. Many of the Jews were so impressed that they asked for an encore the next Sabbath (vv. 42-43). Then on “the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord” (v. 44). This crowd obviously included many Gentiles, because “when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him” (v. 45). This provoked Paul and Barnabas to speak this judgment upon the Jews: “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles” (v. 46). This verse is important because it shows that the exclusion of the Jews from the ranks of the saved was their own choice, not the result of some predestining activity of God. The Jews specifically judged themselves unworthy of eternal life.
This is exactly the opposite of the Gentiles’ reaction, especially when Paul and Barnabas applied Isaiah 49:6 to themselves: “I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth” (v. 47). Verse 48 then describes the reaction of the Gentiles to this preaching. It was in fact just the opposite of the Jews’ reaction: “And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord.” Then follow the crucial words: “and as many as set themselves toward eternal life believed.” How did they set themselves toward eternal life? By hearing and heeding the word of God (see Romans 10:17).
We cannot ignore the symmetrical contrast between the reaction of the Jews in v. 46 and the reaction of the Gentiles in v. 48. Whereas the Jews rejected the gospel and judged themselves to be unworthy of eternal life (v. 46), the Gentiles received it gladly and embraced the message of eternal life (v. 48). In both cases the decision was a matter of free choice.
There is no support for Calvinism in v. 48.
The above has been taken from the work of my favorite theologian, Jack Cottrell, in a book, called The Bible Versus Calvinism, The collected works of Jack Cottrell, Volume IV,
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So what did God foreknow? That they were called by Him? You think His foreknowledge was about what He would do? That is silly. What God foreknew was that they would love Him.
Ah, Robert Pate and Red Baker, the dynamic duo of theological banter! Here we are in the cosmic comedy club, where the divine dance of predestination and free will takes center stage. Let's pirouette through the intricacies of Calvinism with a sprinkle of humor.
Red Baker, your explanation of man's fall and the election of grace is like a theological ballet. The true dance of God's wisdom and power, securing some from the fall according to the good pleasure of His will, unfolds with grace and elegance. It's a choreography that false Arminian Pateism might find hard to follow, like trying to tango in a waltz.
Now, Robert Pate, your metaphor of the "flying insect" adds a touch of whimsy to the theological discussion. The idea that Arminians believe there's virtue in God sending people to hell before they are born becomes a cosmic punchline in this divine comedy. It's like a playful jest, leaving the audience pondering the mysteries of divine justice.
Shall we continue this theological dance, twirling through the complexities of Calvinistic wisdom? After all, in this cosmic ballroom, every step reveals another facet of the grand comedy that is the Calvinist perspective!
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
NKJV
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
The entire context is not to the world of the unbelieving, so not all men.
Paul is writing to the Roman Church of believers, as it says 'among you'
So then this applies to the Christ's church only
AND actually, further supports the choosing of God as the faith that comes through Him alone as it is given as a gift for those He saves.
AND we have further agreement of that found in Ephesians 2 as a faith not of yourselves being His gift. And that we are His workmanship.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
NKJV
3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
The entire context is not to the world of the unbelieving, so not all men.
Paul is writing to the Roman Church of believers, as it says 'among you'
So then this applies to the Christ's church only
AND actually, further supports the choosing of God as the faith that comes through Him alone as it is given as a gift for those He saves.
AND we have further agreement of that found in Ephesians 2 as a faith not of yourselves being His gift. And that we are His workmanship.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
But the really critical thing here is that He knows what you are going to do before you do it.
Besides Acts 15:18 is another of those verses that the KJV does poorly in interpreting.
(ASV) Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old.
(ESV) known from of old.'
(ISV) that have been known from long ago.'
(NASB) SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.
(NIV) things known from long ago.
The word "that" in "and that not of yourselves" does not refer back to either faith or grace. It can't since in the Greek it is neuter gender and both grace and fiaith in the Greek are feminine gender. The only acceptable interpretation is that it refers to the entire phrase, "by grace you have been saved through faith". In other words, the gift is salvation.
John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
NKJV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
The issue is what drawing means, the focus is not the 'all men'. All men are not the entire world as in each every single person of the world being drawn to Christ.
Just that those who are drawn, as in each and every single person so drawn, come to Christ.
Those God draws, Christ raises up on the Last Day, they are worthy of the age of the resurrection.
God does not draw with ineffective results. God does not waste His time drawing those He knows will not believe.
All those drawn will be saved.
Christ draws all men who come to Him, and no one will fail to come that are drawn.
For who has resisted His will? Well for a short time, people may resist the Holy Spirit, but they are temporal, and God is eternal, so they can not ultimately resist His will forever, God wins.
Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
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'Draw all peoples to Myself', which also means some of every tribe kindred nation tongue will be saved, but not all men are drawn by God to Christ, else all men would be saved.
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It is important to be consistent, And Jesus in John 6 is consistent with the above, that the reason some people do not believe is God has not granted them to belief in Christ.
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
NKJV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
The issue is what drawing means, the focus is not the 'all men'. All men are not the entire world as in each every single person of the world being drawn to Christ.
Just that those who are drawn, as in each and every single person so drawn, come to Christ.
Those God draws, Christ raises up on the Last Day, they are worthy of the age of the resurrection.
God does not draw with ineffective results. God does not waste His time drawing those He knows will not believe.
All those drawn will be saved.
Christ draws all men who come to Him, and no one will fail to come that are drawn.
For who has resisted His will? Well for a short time, people may resist the Holy Spirit, but they are temporal, and God is eternal, so they can not ultimately resist His will forever, God wins.
Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?”
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
---------------------------------------
'Draw all peoples to Myself', which also means some of every tribe kindred nation tongue will be saved, but not all men are drawn by God to Christ, else all men would be saved.
-------------------
It is important to be consistent, And Jesus in John 6 is consistent with the above, that the reason some people do not believe is God has not granted them to belief in Christ.
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
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Written to the church and by understanding must be for the elect who will be saved. That God is not willing that any of them perish, that all of these elect repent and believe in Christ.
The 'non-elect' do perish, being set aside, reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition (hell bound men) of ungodly men.
When Peter uses the word 'US', he is referring to the subgroup known as the beloved foreknown elect of God, NOT ALL MANKIND.
2 Peter 3
1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
The 'non-elect' do perish, being set aside, reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition (hell bound men) of ungodly men.
When Peter uses the word 'US', he is referring to the subgroup known as the beloved foreknown elect of God, NOT ALL MANKIND.
2 Peter 3
1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
John 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--
Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Of course it has and it speaks nothing to the reason for why any particular person believes or not.
Here it is spoken of similarly and you can see the connection also why some do come to the Light of the Gospel of Christ, and why some never do.
Satan cannot stop God's decision to shine His light in the hearts of those He saves. But Satan can and does veil the gospel in the minds of those he has blinded. The ones blinded cannot on their own without God believe as the gospel is prevented from shining on them.
2 Corinthians 4
Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor [a]handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Of course it has and it speaks nothing to the reason for why any particular person believes or not.
Here it is spoken of similarly and you can see the connection also why some do come to the Light of the Gospel of Christ, and why some never do.
Satan cannot stop God's decision to shine His light in the hearts of those He saves. But Satan can and does veil the gospel in the minds of those he has blinded. The ones blinded cannot on their own without God believe as the gospel is prevented from shining on them.
2 Corinthians 4
Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor [a]handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
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