Calvinism

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HeRoseFromTheDead

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I look at 1 John 3:9 a little differently. To me it says that those truly begotten of GOD are not doing sin because GOD's seed in them makes them unable to continue sinning because the spirit will convict them and cause them to turn away from sin.
 

excubitor

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Calvinism is a theological construct that has little application in real life.
In these modern days theology is on the nose generally and a simple practical living out the faith as each individual feels is best is in vogue.
When the traditional mainline protestant churches especially the presbyterians decide that they want to recapture the roots of the reformation they sometimes drag out TULIP and do a series of sermons on it.
These efforts invariably backfire as the incoherence and impracticality of Calvinism is an embarassment to everyone. Usually a few people leave or stop attending during this series and the pastor learns to leave Calvinism on the books as the 'official position' and preach the direct opposite in sermons thereafter.
Stephen100 said:
I personally believe that Calvinism is a heresy, but it is becoming widely accepted by many Christians around the world. What do you think? Are you a Calvinist?
 

biggandyy

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Whether a doctrine is "applicable" in today's world or not has zero bearing on its truth claims. Watering down teaching to appease the world is what has gotten us where we are now.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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ScottAU,

Three questions:
  1. Can a person have confidence (i.e., be sure) now that he/she will be forgiven by GOD if at sometime in the future he/she commits a sin, and then repents?
  2. If the answer to # 1 is yes, what is that confidence based on? If no, why is there no confidence?
  3. How does the blood of Christ cleanse the conscience? I'm interested in seeing how you view the exact mechanism whereby it has the power to do so.

Another comment...

I have been reading through some of DeSario's writings. IMO, he is a sloppy thinker, writer, and expositor, which makes his work very hard to get through. He does state numerous things that are true, but there are so many fallacies mixed in that it gives me a headache to read.
 

ScottAU

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
ScottAU,

Three questions:
  1. Can a person have confidence (i.e., be sure) now that he/she will be forgiven by GOD if at sometime in the future he/she commits a sin, and then repents?
  2. If the answer to # 1 is yes, what is that confidence based on? If no, why is there no confidence?
  3. How does the blood of Christ cleanse the conscience? I'm interested in seeing how you view the exact mechanism whereby it has the power to do so.

Another comment...

I have been reading through some of DeSario's writings. IMO, he is a sloppy thinker, writer, and expositor, which makes his work very hard to get through. He does state numerous things that are true, but there are so many fallacies mixed in that it gives me a headache to read.
1. "IF" repentance can be found. It is godly sorrow that works a repentance unto salvation but the sorrow of the world works death (2Cor 7:10). It is very dangerous for an individual who has come to the light to willfully suppress the light and rebel against it.

A sinner is in darkness and while they are still responsible for their sins their eyes have not been opened. This an individual whose eyes are open, who has been cleansed by the blood, for them to sin it is much more serious. Repentance is not simply saying "I am sorry" but is something that comes from within whereby the mind "is truly changed" (metanioa = change of mind) necessitating a "turning from sin."

There is always forgiveness available if one repents.


2. The confidence is based on God's word.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

3. How does the blood of Christ cleanse the conscience. I think that it is a mystery. I believe that what happens on earth are types and shadows for what happens in the spiritual realm and that the "physical blood" of Jesus is a type and shadow of a mystery in the spiritual.

What I do know is that the blood does cleanse and purge the conscience of sin that we may stand before God clean, our sins made white as snow.





In this thread you have made the comment,

I think you are imagining an obedience and purity in your life that doesn't really exist. Anyone who sins, whether they believe what you believe or not, will be forgiven if they repent.
Which leads me to think that you believe that a life of continual obedience and purity is impossible upon coming to Christ and that a Christian will, from time to time, rebel against God (ie. sin willfully). Yet as long as they repent (say sorry???) then they will be forgiven.

Correct me if my above assertion is wrong please.

You clearly believe that the "penalty debt was paid" for you have stated...

The blood cleanses because it is the eternal evidence that the penalty has been paid.
Post #87

forgiveness is always there for those who repent because the blood is there on the mercy seat as evidence for the debt paid.
Post #91

Yet it appears you don't see a difference between us "being bought with a price" (1Cor 7:23) and a "penalty being paid."

It seems to me you are making distinctions without a difference. Jesus paid the price, whether as a ransom, or as wrath from GOD. What's the point? What are the practical implications of your distinctions?
Post #78


Where does the Bible teach that Jesus "paid the penalty or paid the debt owed" for sin?

What I see in the Bible is RANSOM and how it connects to PURITY.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

G3084 - Redeem -lutroō
From G3083; to ransom (literally or figuratively): - redeem.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

G629 - Redemption - apolutrōsis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Thus a price was paid but not in the context of "paying a sin debt." Jesus paid a ransom to rescue us from the dominion of sin that we may escape the corruption in the world through lust (2Pet 1:3-4) in order that we partake in the divine nature (the mind of Christ).

Isa_52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

H1350 - Redeemed - gâ'al
A primitive root, to redeem (according to the Oriental law of kinship), that is, to be the next of kin (and as such to buy back a relative’s property, marry his widow, etc.): - X in any wise, X at all, avenger, deliver, (do, perform the part of near, next) kinsfolk (-man), purchase, ransom, redeem (-er), revenger.



You see under Penal Substitution it is taught that Jesus "satisfied the wrath" of God on the cross and due to this the wrath no longer abides on those whom He "satisfied the wrath for." Yet the Bible does not teach any such thing anywhere.

The concept of "wrath satisfaction" and a "forensic transfer of righteousness" (which are bedrocks of Reformed/Calvinist doctrine) as the means by which a sinner is justified is totally alien to what the Scripture actually teaches.

This Penal Substitution concept completely perverts the Gospel by throwing "obedience from the heart" (Rom 6:17) and the resulting "purity of heart" (1Pet 1:22) right out the window as MANDATORY conditions and facets of genuine salvation. Under Penal Substitution salvation is PURELY forensic or positional, which is why people say they have an "Identity in Christ" but "practically they still sin."
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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ScottAU, please don't send me any more long posts like the one above. I don't like to get bogged down in long drawn out discussions on one post. If you have multiple issues you want to address, please make them separate posts.

When I said I think you are imagining a sinless purity that may not exist in your life I was referring to the truth set forth by both David (I am a worm) and Paul (nothing good dwells in my flesh). You have no idea if you are leading a sinless life. Your conscience may be defiled to the point that you don't see your sin. What about sins of omission? I believe in theory we can be sinless; but practically? no. What does John say? If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves. And James: we all stumble in many things.

I will get to the rest later. Please no more long posts.
 

ScottAU

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
ScottAU, please don't send me any more long posts like the one above. I don't like to get bogged down in long drawn out discussions on one post. If you have multiple issues you want to address, please make them separate posts.

When I said I think you are imagining a sinless purity that may not exist in your life I was referring to the truth set forth by both David (I am a worm) and Paul (nothing good dwells in my flesh). You have no idea if you are leading a sinless life. Your conscience may be defiled to the point that you don't see your sin. What about sins of omission? I believe in theory we can be sinless; but practically? no. What does John say? If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves. And James: we all stumble in many things.

I will get to the rest later. Please no more long posts.
I was showing many of the scriptures that pertain to ransom. If you don't wish to read it then you do not have to.


What does John say? John teachers that the children of God are MANIFEST by the fruit they produce which is righteousness as opposed to sin.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

John also teaches that those born of God don't sin (unto death) because they keep themselves.

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

This is because we are slaves to whom we obey thus how we yield out bodies is evidence of whom we actually serve.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Christian's don't serve sin, they serve righteousness because they obey from the heart (obedience unto righteousness).

The passage in John you are referring to would be this one...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Yet that passage CANNOT be quoted out of context. It is not an isolated proof text proving ongoing sinfulness in a Christian. That verse is in the context of repentance in regards to the method by which we approach God.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In order to approach God one must be walking in the light and in order to do that we have to confess (and forsake) our sins.

Exactly as this proverb teaches...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

God has not changed. Proverbs 28:13 still applies under the New Covenant.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

The other verse you are referring to is this...

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The context of that passage is of the Romans Wretch who is a man who is "carnal and sold under sin" (Rom 7:14) who is being convicted of his wretchedness and he is realising that he cannot defeat sin in the flesh (hence in him is no good thing). The method to defeat sin is via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

It is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus that sets the wretch free from being carnal and sold under sin, from doing what he does not want to do.

We enter into the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ through repentance and faith which Paul explains in Romans 6...

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

It is the dynamic of the old man being crucified and the body of sin (repentance and obedience from the heart) destroyed that sets an individual free from sin, that combined with purging by the blood of Christ.



Stumbling is not the same as transgression. Transgression is rooted in iniquity (hence a worker of iniquity), stumbling is when we sin ignorantly because we have either been complacent, prioritised wrong, made a wrong decision or various other reasons. Those are sins not unto death and we have an advocate with the Father for that (1Joh 2:1). Willful sin is an entirely different matter.for if we do that no sacrifice remains because the sacrifice of Christ is not to be used to purge the conscience only for us to go out and defile it again. Jesus death on the cross is not a get out of jail free card, it is not a license to sin with impunity.

You are clearly trying to defend being able to sin and not surely die for you appeal to Rom 7:14-25 and 1Joh 1:8 by taking them out of context. Those passages are not teaching an ongoing state of sinfulness.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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ScottAU said:
I was showing many of the scriptures that pertain to ransom. If you don't wish to read it then you do not have to.


What does John say? John teachers that the children of God are MANIFEST by the fruit they produce which is righteousness as opposed to sin.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

John also teaches that those born of God don't sin (unto death) because they keep themselves.

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

This is because we are slaves to whom we obey thus how we yield out bodies is evidence of whom we actually serve.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Christian's don't serve sin, they serve righteousness because they obey from the heart (obedience unto righteousness).

The passage in John you are referring to would be this one...

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Yet that passage CANNOT be quoted out of context. It is not an isolated proof text proving ongoing sinfulness in a Christian. That verse is in the context of repentance in regards to the method by which we approach God.

1Jn 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

In order to approach God one must be walking in the light and in order to do that we have to confess (and forsake) our sins.

Exactly as this proverb teaches...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

God has not changed. Proverbs 28:13 still applies under the New Covenant.

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

The other verse you are referring to is this...

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

The context of that passage is of the Romans Wretch who is a man who is "carnal and sold under sin" (Rom 7:14) who is being convicted of his wretchedness and he is realising that he cannot defeat sin in the flesh (hence in him is no good thing). The method to defeat sin is via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

It is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus that sets the wretch free from being carnal and sold under sin, from doing what he does not want to do.

We enter into the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ through repentance and faith which Paul explains in Romans 6...

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

It is the dynamic of the old man being crucified and the body of sin (repentance and obedience from the heart) destroyed that sets an individual free from sin, that combined with purging by the blood of Christ.



Stumbling is not the same as transgression. Transgression is rooted in iniquity (hence a worker of iniquity), stumbling is when we sin ignorantly because we have either been complacent, prioritised wrong, made a wrong decision or various other reasons. Those are sins not unto death and we have an advocate with the Father for that (1Joh 2:1). Willful sin is an entirely different matter.for if we do that no sacrifice remains because the sacrifice of Christ is not to be used to purge the conscience only for us to go out and defile it again. Jesus death on the cross is not a get out of jail free card, it is not a license to sin with impunity.

You are clearly trying to defend being able to sin and not surely die for you appeal to Rom 7:14-25 and 1Joh 1:8 by taking them out of context. Those passages are not teaching an ongoing state of sinfulness.
You're not listening. I won't read them anymore.

Regarding the ransom... You or Mike are trying to make a doctrine from one word - ransom. Again, that is a distinction without a difference. Ransom, payment of debt, same thing. The ransom was paid to the law to whom we were debtors. Our kinsman redeemer, Christ, paid the debt, or ransom, in his own blood. The blood on the mercy seat is the confidence we have that the debt, or ransom, has been paid. How or why the blood of Christ works is not a mystery as you say; it is proof of debt paid.

You did not get back with me regarding my explanation that Christ became liable for our sins because he forgave us. You blew that off by saying that was not in the bible. I said every bit of it is, and challenged you to dispute any point of it. Care to?
 

bytheway

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I'm quite sure the regions of the dammed are not empty. If you can hear it not all will be saved. Ephesians 1:4 states just as He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world.God has always known His children, those within Him. Jesus told the hippocrates in Jn. 8:44 you are of your father the devil and will do what he does.In Mat.23:15 Jesus says that these scribes and pharisees make a potential convert twofold a child of hell. The only thing worse than hell is to think one has avoided it. Many today sad to say are under the same delusion. God did not save us just to save us.He knows the hearts of all and has an on going plan for those that follow.
 

biggandyy

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The phrase "on going plan" seems to denote the Lord is still creating His plan in accordance with the choices we make. This thought does great violence to the omniscience of God. Nothing is contingent with the Lord, especially us. If He has to gaze into His crystal ball to determine what we will do or say then we are making God contingent upon the future. In reality, He is already there and here and ages ago, all simultaneously.
 

Rex

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Rach1370

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BiggAndyy said:
I can almost agree with that Rach... however, I see it more as the Lord extracting Glory for Himself since we have no innate glory in which to offer Him. Unless the Holy Spirit moves within us, all our deeds (be they well intentioned or not) amount to nothing more than soiled toilet paper to the Lord. Since He is the author of our Good deeds the Glory He takes from us originates within Himself, ultimately.

I agree with this...and don't think the pastor I was referring to would either. Actually, I think it exactly right....God will have his glory, no matter what...and either he will have it through us being a worshipper or an unrepentant sinner.
I think it all comes down to how you consider the cross. Did Jesus die for us because we were worth saving, or did God do it because the act of redemption gives him more glory? I say that yes, he does indeed love us, but the bible teaches that ultimately God is for his own glory, so we must believe that the most incredible act in human history was to show and honour God's glory.
 

bytheway

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BiggAndyy said:
The phrase "on going plan" seems to denote the Lord is still creating His plan in accordance with the choices we make. This thought does great violence to the omniscience of God. Nothing is contingent with the Lord, especially us. If He has to gaze into His crystal ball to determine what we will do or say then we are making God contingent upon the future. In reality, He is already there and here and ages ago, all simultaneously.
It's on going for His people. Guess you missed the words chose and before and those that follow.
 

Rach1370

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jiggyfly said:
Is it one or the other? Seems to me many christians today confuse God's wrath or anger with His judgment.
I don't know that we need to differentiate between the attributes of God in a 'one or the other' sort of way.
The bible is clear on his attributes, and that they are all equal. His love is equal to his wrath. His judgement is equal to his mercy.
I know you believe in an all saved doctrine, but we cannot deny scriptural truths in regards to God's judgement and wrath. We may not understand them or how they fit together, but there is another truth in scripture we may cling to in our uncertainty....He is good and his justice perfect...no matter the outcome, it will be for His praise and glory. In that we must rest.
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

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Covenant Theology is the closest thing I think to preaching the whole counsel of GOD. It's virtue rests in the fact that such seeks to uphold the Sovereignty and Glory of God without a tincture of back peddling & our utmost for "His highest'.

Dispensationalism pales into insignificance when it comes to the right application of scripture in regards to Holiness and Faith and the supreme sovereignty of Christ in the real world..
 

jiggyfly

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Rach said:
I don't know that we need to differentiate between the attributes of God in a 'one or the other' sort of way.
The bible is clear on his attributes, and that they are all equal. His love is equal to his wrath. His judgement is equal to his mercy.
I know you believe in an all saved doctrine, but we cannot deny scriptural truths in regards to God's judgement and wrath. We may not understand them or how they fit together, but there is another truth in scripture we may cling to in our uncertainty....He is good and his justice perfect...no matter the outcome, it will be for His praise and glory. In that we must rest.
Do you base your " his attributes are all equal" on any scripture?

Any ideas on what it takes to satisfy God's justice?
 

KingJ

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Arnie Manitoba said:
Obviously you are not a Calvinist .... and neither am I

But Stephen , if you and I were asked point blank if everyone on earth was going to heaven to be with Jesus .... we would answer NO

At that moment we have taken a step toward Calvinism , whether we like it or not

I have always subscribed to the muddled explanation that we make our own choices about Christ .... but he knows who will or will not choose Christ beforehand .

God knows the end from the beginning ..... we cannot comprehend that ourselves ... but that is because of our limitation

If we do not accept pre-destination ..... then we would have to say that God just threw some dice .... and even he does not know the outcome .

This has always been a difficult subject with no clear-cut answers.

Remember that prophecy is telling the future in advance ..... and that is pre-destination at the highest level

best wishes
Arnie, the answer is clear cut. The problem is that we are defining God and not looking at how scripture defines Him.

Scripture says God is impartial. End of story. Nothing more to discuss. Partiality does not exist with God. God is who He is and not who we assume He is. It is a revelation we need to 'get' like Peter did in Acts 10:34. We assume that because God is omniscient and sovereign He must be partial. God is omniscient, sovereign and impartial. Just as I am a male with black hair.

Hence many re-define omniscience (from Wikipedia):
  • inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
  • total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.
Some modern Christian theologians argue that God's omniscience is inherent rather than total, and that God chooses to limit his omniscience in order to preserve the freewill and dignity of his creatures


Rach said:
I don't know that we need to differentiate between the attributes of God in a 'one or the other' sort of way.
The bible is clear on his attributes, and that they are all equal. His love is equal to his wrath. His judgement is equal to his mercy.
I know you believe in an all saved doctrine, but we cannot deny scriptural truths in regards to God's judgement and wrath. We may not understand them or how they fit together, but there is another truth in scripture we may cling to in our uncertainty....He is good and his justice perfect...no matter the outcome, it will be for His praise and glory. In that we must rest.
Amen. In heaven we will not see through a glass darkly. If God had anything to hide He would make us dumb. Scripture is truth and we can judge Him on it. He is impartial with all. If one accountable person is guaranteed heaven, we all are. If one has to endure the devil, all have to endure him. Why else would God release the devil to tempt mankind in Rev 20:3? If not to be fair on all?
 

dragonfly

Well-Known Member
Apr 19, 2012
1,882
141
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Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead, and ScottAU,

How or why the blood of Christ works is not a mystery as you say; it is proof of debt paid.
It is not a mystery because God has explained it to us long ago. Behold the Lamb which takes away the sin of the world.

Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. There is a reason for this commandment.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.

Leviticus 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eats it shall be cut off.

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.


John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.
 

ScottAU

New Member
Feb 27, 2013
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0
dragonfly said:
Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead, and ScottAU,


It is not a mystery because God has explained it to us long ago. Behold the Lamb which takes away the sin of the world.

Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. There is a reason for this commandment.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.

Leviticus 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eats it shall be cut off.

Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh.


John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, has eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, dwells in me, and I in him.

57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eats me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eats of this bread shall live for ever.
Amen.


Abiding in Christ.