Calvinism

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here are my chief objections to the Penal Substitution view...

1. Under Penal Substitution God does not forgive sin. Sin is instead transferred to an innocent and they are punished instead. In other words an innocent in punished in order to excuse the guilty. This defies justice, not to mention that "sin" and "virtue" are moral and are not transferrable substances.

OK, I'm going to take these one at a time.

Virtue and morality are transferable because the old has died and the new is Christ.

As far as justice goes, who is man to conform GOD to man's idea of justice?

As I see it, here is the reality of GOD's justice. Jesus was the son of man, or better yet, the son of Adam. Being the son of Adam he inherited dominion over the earth and the entire human race. Jesus being sinless, satan could not withstand his authority. Jesus chose to do the will of the father, which was to forgive mankind. GOD had said, 'the one who sins will die.' Jesus, the son of GOD and the lord of humanity, forgave mankind this debt. He had the authority to do so. However, the father did not forgive mankind; somebody still had to die to satisfy the debt. So when Jesus forgave mankind, he himself became legally liable for those sins.

 

[ScottAU]

Reformed Theology and Penal Substitution has to deny these verses...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

The sin NEVER stops under Reformed theology because sin is tied to the flesh.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

The flesh is NEVER crucified under Reformed theology because sin is tied to the flesh itself. The Bible actually teaches that sin is a CHOICE when the lusts of the flesh are YIELDED TO in disobedience to God hence...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Those who are born of God don't sin (unto death) for they have are crucified with Christ and thus don't yield their members to unrighteousness.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The main implication is this.
Penal Substitution attributes the basis of Justification and thus being reconciled to God to a "forensic legal transaction." In other words Jesus swaps places with the sinner. The sinners sin is transferred to Jesus and Jesus absorbs the punishment. While the righteousness of Jesus is credited to the believer. Thus when God looks at the believer He no longer sees their sin (for it has been paid for), instead He sees the righteousness of Christ.
Thus the convert is reconciled to God in a sinful state and the cleanup occurs AFTERWARDS. Thus the believer is still double-minded and in bondage to sin.
Under Ransom the sinner is PURCHASED from the "dominion of sin" (sin holds death over the sinner). The sinner approaches God through repentance and faith (whereby the rebellion to God ceases) and then the blood purges the conscience of PAST SIN. Thus the believer has a fresh start having been reconciled. They then grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ and add to their faith having ESCAPED the corruption in the world through lust.
Under PS there is no release from bondage for salvation is POSITIONAL. PS only addresses CONDEMNATION. Thus PS is really a fancy way of teaching "you can sin and not surely die" (because the price has already been paid).
Under Ransom one is set free from bondage (through dying WITH Christ whereby the old man is crucified) and salvation is ACTUAL. Ransom addresses BOTH "bondage" and "condemnation." Ransom teaches that "if you sin you will surely die" which is why one must mortify the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit.
The difference between the two is huge.

Distinction without a difference. You are reading things into PS that are how you choose to see it.

 

[ScottAU]

OK, I'm going to take these one at a time.

Virtue and morality are transferable because the old has died and the new is Christ.

As far as justice goes, who is man to conform GOD to man's idea of justice?

As I see it, here is the reality of GOD's justice. Jesus was the son of man, or better yet, the son of Adam. Being the son of Adam he inherited dominion over the earth and the entire human race. Jesus being sinless, satan could not withstand his authority. Jesus chose to do the will of the father, which was to forgive mankind. GOD had said, 'the one who sins will die.' Jesus, the son of GOD and the lord of humanity, forgave mankind this debt. He had the authority to do so. However, the father did not forgive mankind; somebody still had to die to satisfy the debt. So when Jesus forgave mankind, he himself became legally liable for those sins.

You can say things like this but the Bible simply does not teach it. I have read many explanations on the Atonement and one of my chief objections is people don't use the Bible to support what they teach.

In the parable of the unforgiving servant the debt was forgiven without a payment needing to be made. In all of the teachings of Jesus there is not a single allusion to the "penalty having to be made." The conditions for forgiveness is "repentance and faith" ie. repent and believe the Gospel.

In the book of Hebrews, John and Peter it is clearly taught that the blood CLEANSES us of sin.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Reformed Theology and Penal Substitution has to deny these verses...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

The sin NEVER stops under Reformed theology because sin is tied to the flesh.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
The flesh is NEVER crucified under Reformed theology because sin is tied to the flesh itself. The Bible actually teaches that sin is a CHOICE when the lusts of the flesh are YIELDED TO in disobedience to God hence...
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Those who are born of God don't sin (unto death) for they have are crucified with Christ and thus don't yield their members to unrighteousness.

I think I am starting to get a whiff of the idea that we have no sinful nature that causes us to sin (contrary to Paul's teaching), and that the reality of sin only results from moral decisions we make.

 

[ScottAU]

Distinction without a difference. You are reading things into PS that are how you choose to see it.

I am not reading things into it at all. I speak with many pastors and theologians about it.

Ask practically any person who believes in Penal Substitution if a porn watcher must stop viewing porn BEFORE forgiveness is granted.

In their mind forgiveness is granted on the basis of the "forensic legal exchange" and not on the basis of "repentance and faith whereby one accesses the cleansing of the blood."

Thus they teach that one CAN STILL be actively engaged in known immorality and be forgiven. In fact they teach that FUTURE sins are ALREADY forgiven before you even commit them because Jesus "paid the price" thus all you have to do is TRUST in the "Finished Work of Christ."

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You can say things like this but the Bible simply does not teach it. I have read many explanations on the Atonement and one of my chief objections is people don't use the Bible to support what they teach.
In the parable of the unforgiving servant the debt was forgiven without a payment needing to be made. In all of the teachings of Jesus there is not a single allusion to the "penalty having to be made." The conditions for forgiveness is "repentance and faith" ie. repent and believe the Gospel.
In the book of Hebrews, John and Peter it is clearly taught that the blood CLEANSES us of sin.

Everything I mentioned is in the bible. Dispute one thing.

The blood cleanses because it is the eternal evidence that the penalty has been paid.

 

[jiggyfly]

You are the one calling God out on playing favorites, I have made no such claim. He hates sin yet loved the sinner enough to provide a way of salvation. But, since we are unable to save ourselves He had to go the extra mile to do it.

If everyone gets saved then no one is left to be condemned and His Eternal Justice is not satisfied.

If no one gets saved and everyone is condemned to hell His Eternal Compassion (Love) is not satisfied.

If some CHOOSE to be saved and some do not and He has to peek into the future to see who makes that choice then His Eternal Omniscience is not satisfied.

If He chooses some to be saved and the rest He allows to their just end then his Eternal Justice, Eternal Compassion, and His Eternal Omniscience are all satisfied.

God isn't an Either/Or type of being, he is a Both/And. Justice AND Mercy MUST be satisfied. It's as simple as that.

What do you consider God's "eternal justice"? Is it anything like His righteous judgment?

What satisfies His justice?

Can you give some scriptures to support your belief(s)?

 

[ScottAU]

I think I am starting to get a whiff of the idea that we have no sinful nature that causes us to sin (contrary to Paul's teaching), and that the reality of sin only results from moral decisions we make.

We don't have a sinful nature that CAUSES us to sin. Sin is a CHOICE.

The word for Nature in Eph 2:3 is Phusis in the Greek and it means GROWTH. A sinful nature is something that grows through repeated acts of sin, hence the bondage of sin.

Human beings are born in a neutral state with the light of God (Joh 1:9). Sin only has the power to kill when one KNOWS right from wrong and thus one can CHOOSE to do wrong (hence Rom 7:9).

The concept of being "born" with a "sin nature" was accepted into Christian orthodoxy through a theologian named Augustine in the Fourth Century. It was Augustine who misinterpreted Romans 5:12 through the tainted philosophy of dualism. Augustine used the Latin Vulgate which teaches "IN WHOM ALL SINNED" as opposed to the Greek which states "FOR ALL SINNED." Thus Augustine concluded that all the descendents of Adam were in the loins of Adam (due to Heb 7:10) and thus everyone "sinned in Adam." Augustine then went on to teach that "sin" is passed down in the male sperm and this doctrine is known as Seminal Identity or the Natural Head Theory.

Most Theologians hold to the basic tenet of that view in regards to the transmission of sin although many hold to what is known as the Federal Head view which teaches that God imputes sin to the soul at conception due to Adam breaking covenant with God as the Federal Head.

This is what they teach in Seminary and this is what all these big name theologians believe. It is not Biblical.

Before Augustine this "inborn sin nature" was REFUTED as gnostic heresy. It was a few of the Latin Fathers who would allude to it but it was not until Augustine that it was fully developed.

 

[jiggyfly]

Justice was indeed meted out upon Christ at the Cross. However, the ultimate end of that sacrifice was God's Eternal Mercy being made available to Mankind.

So we can recast the statement I made above in this light; If everyone receives Mercy, God's justice is nullified. It was this type of tension in our understanding of the nature of God that a Limited Atonement reading of scripture helps alleviate. God's Justice AND Mercy displayed at the Cross can be harmonized realizing while, again, Christ's atonement is universally sufficient, it is only applied by God to those He has chosen according to His own good pleasure to apply it to.

Maybe you should start with what you think God's justice consists of in your own words.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I am not reading things into it at all. I speak with many pastors and theologians about it.
Ask practically any person who believes in Penal Substitution if a porn watcher must stop viewing porn BEFORE forgiveness is granted.
In their mind forgiveness is granted on the basis of the "forensic legal exchange" and not on the basis of "repentance and faith whereby one accesses the cleansing of the blood."
Thus they teach that one CAN STILL be actively engaged in known immorality and be forgiven. In fact they teach that FUTURE sins are ALREADY forgiven before you even commit them because Jesus "paid the price" thus all you have to do is TRUST in the "Finished Work of Christ."

If your whole argument is based on the premise that 'In their mind forgiveness is granted on the basis of the "forensic legal exchange" and not on the basis of "repentance and faith whereby one accesses the cleansing of the blood"' then I have to say that this is just a distinction without a difference that theologians love to argue about.

No sane person who truly understands and values salvation is going to actively sin with the thought that it's OK because it's all forgiven. That leads to a hard heart and falling away. Nevertheless, forgiveness is always there for those who repent because the blood is there on the mercy seat as evidence for the debt paid.

How in your mind does the blood cleanse?

 

[jiggyfly]

I've heard one Pastor say that we all end up glorifying God...either through his grace and mercy, or through his judgement and justice....

Is it one or the other? Seems to me many christians today confuse God's wrath or anger with His judgment.

You are the one calling God out on playing favorites, I have made no such claim. He hates sin yet loved the sinner enough to provide a way of salvation. But, since we are unable to save ourselves He had to go the extra mile to do it.

If everyone gets saved then no one is left to be condemned and His Eternal Justice is not satisfied.

If no one gets saved and everyone is condemned to hell His Eternal Compassion (Love) is not satisfied.

If some CHOOSE to be saved and some do not and He has to peek into the future to see who makes that choice then His Eternal Omniscience is not satisfied.

If He chooses some to be saved and the rest He allows to their just end then his Eternal Justice, Eternal Compassion, and His Eternal Omniscience are all satisfied.

God isn't an Either/Or type of being, he is a Both/And. Justice AND Mercy MUST be satisfied. It's as simple as that.

I may have made a mistake earlier BA. Was this a response to the scripture (Rom. 11) I posted in response to your post?

 

[ScottAU]

If your whole argument is based on the premise that 'In their mind forgiveness is granted on the basis of the "forensic legal exchange" and not on the basis of "repentance and faith whereby one accesses the cleansing of the blood"' then I have to say that this is just a distinction without a difference that theologians love to argue about.

No sane person who truly understands and values salvation is going to actively sin with the thought that it's OK because it's all forgiven. That leads to a hard heart and falling away. Nevertheless, forgiveness is always there for those who repent because the blood is there on the mercy seat as evidence for the debt paid.

How in your mind does the blood cleanse?

The issue is not whether someone believes "it is ok or not" for I have not found anyone who says that "sinning is ok." The issue is whether you "can sin and not surely die."

The false teachers of today will tell you that "you can sin and not surely die" but "you shouldn't do it."

The blood cleanses exactly as the Bible says it does...

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



When one approaches God through broken godly sorrow working a genuine repentance the rebellion in the heart is purged. Thus they are yielded to God (walking in the light) yet the conscience is still defiled due to the knowledge of past transgression (ie. a return to obedience cannot undo past guilt). It is the blood of Christ that cleanses us of the defiled conscience that we can serve God acceptable. Thus we go and sin no more having been redeemed from all iniquity and made pure.


Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;
Heb 10:33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used.
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
Heb 10:35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward.
Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.
Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.
Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Penal Substitution completely denies the above passage. The blood of Christ has NOTHING to do with a judicial exchange, it has EVERYTHING to do with the cleansing and purging of sin in order that we can walk in purity without the guilt of our past rebellion.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

ScottAU, I think you are imagining an obedience and purity in your life that doesn't really exist. Anyone who sins, whether they believe what you believe or not, will be forgiven if they repent.

I will follow up on this when I have time.

btw, who is the individual in the holdingfirmly video?

 

[ScottAU]

ScottAU, I think you are imagining an obedience and purity in your life that doesn't really exist. Anyone who sins, whether they believe what you believe or not, will be forgiven if they repent.

I will follow up on this when I have time.

btw, who is the individual in the holdingfirmly video?

Imagining an obedience and purity? Clearly you must think that obedience and purity is impossible.

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


My main point is that modern Christian theology denies Heart Purity. They deny it because they view sin as a substance of the flesh which cannot be overcome until one is glorified. Thus the "sin you will and the sin you must" belief reigns supreme in the minds of many who profess Christ.

Thus the salvation people believe they have is a NOTION of being justified due to a forensic legal transaction whilst in actuality they are still defiled within.




Jesus gave this warning...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.





The man in the video is Michael DeSario of www.standingthegap.org

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The man in the video is Michael DeSario of www.standingthegap.org

I still need time to look at ScottAU's comments and respond...

Meanwhile I have been looking at Mike Desario's web stuff and want to make a report (as I learn). He strongly advocates repentance (which is good); and from what I can tell at this point he bases his views to a large degree on the writings of the Ante-Nicene fathers, primarily Hermas. From Mike's website, here is something Hermas had to say about repentance:

Go, and tell all men to repent, and they shall live unto God; for the Lord in His compassion sent me to give repentance to all, though some of them, because of their deeds do not deserve to be saved. Hermas (A.D. 150) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg. 42

This statement, of course, reveals a self-righteous spirit, for no man is worthy of salvation. That Hermas thought he was in a position to judge speaks volumes.

Again, Hermas:

Well, do you think that the sins of those who repent are forgiven immediately? Certainly not; but the person who repents must torture his own soul, and must be thoroughly humble in his every action, and be afflicted with all the divers kinds of affliction; and if he endure the afflictions which come upon him, assuredly He Who created all things and endowed them with power will be moved with compassion and will bestow some remedy. Hermas (A.D. 150) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg.38

What I am sensing is a doctrine of salvation by works that teaches the lord will forgive you if he feels like it based upon how you mortify (torture) your flesh and soul before him in repentance. ScottAU correct me if I'm wrong.

Now on to some of M. DeSalvio's Youtube comments on one of his videos (I don't know if Mike wrote these, but can only assume so based on the Youtube ID):

they called hypocrites , false religion and satan cult denominations full of liars, and full of blasphemiers , double minded and they hate the real jesus and real god and they hate the holy ghost spirit of god and any holy saint who preaches truth and works , obedeince to them religeous demons , well the lake of fire will be waiting for them all in the day of judgement ,let them accursed ,amen

99.99% or more are already deceived by satan so the devil does not bother them he has them already deceived and in false religion ,etc.... cursed and damnation on them all. let be a cursed .amen

Frankly, I get a little tired of people who think they are the cat's meow and curse and damn 99.99% of humanity (or maybe he's talking about Christians). A tree's known by its fruit.

Will keep you posted.

 

[ScottAU]

When Mike is quoting Hermas or any of the patristic era church fathers he is not endorsing all the teaching of those church fathers, he is illustrating that in the early church the repentance message was in the context of ceasing sin as opposed to a confession of sinfulness. Mike's Youtube name is "holdingfirmly" so any statement not made by that name is not Mike.

Any church member who was still engaged in the commission of willful sin was put out of the church in those days.

So instead of making accusations about "self-righteousness" let's examine what the Bible actually teaches about repentance and the cessation of sin.


My Bible teaches that those born of God don't sin (unto death).

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

I think pastors who teach that people are in a justified state before God (and thus saved) yet remain in bondage to the lusts of the flesh are in grave error.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

When Mike is quoting Hermas or any of the patristic era church fathers he is not endorsing all the teaching of those church fathers, he is illustrating that in the early church the repentance message was in the context of ceasing sin as opposed to a confession of sinfulness. Mike's Youtube name is "holdingfirmly" so any statement not made by that name is not Mike.

Any church member who was still engaged in the commission of willful sin was put out of the church in those days.

So instead of making accusations about "self-righteousness" let's examine what the Bible actually teaches about repentance and the cessation of sin.

My Bible teaches that those born of God don't sin (unto death).

I think pastors who teach that people are in a justified state before God (and thus saved) yet remain in bondage to the lusts of the flesh are in grave error.

The individual who made those vile comments is holdingfirmlytotheend. Glad that's cleared up.

Those who continue in sin should be put out of the church.

My comment about self-righteousness was directed at Hermas, not Mike. Anyone who makes a statement like that has some serious issues regarding self-righteousness. Frankly, I think it is a sin to say something like that.

There is a difference between justification and salvation. The former is a one time deal, free gift; salvation takes a lifetime.

 

[ScottAU]

The individual who made those vile comments is holdingfirmlytotheend. Glad that's cleared up.

Those who continue in sin should be put out of the church.

My comment about self-righteousness was directed at Hermas, not Mike. Anyone who makes a statement like that has some serious issues regarding self-righteousness. Frankly, I think it is a sin to say something like that.

There is a difference between justification and salvation. The former is a one time deal, free gift; salvation takes a lifetime.

I would tend to agree for I don't think anyone "deserves" to be saved. It is only by the mercy of God that repentance is granted.

Here is that quote from the Shepard of Hermes...

11[77]:1 And after he had completed the interpretations of all the rods, he saith unto me; "Go, and tell all men to repent, and they shall live unto God; for the Lord in His compassion sent me to give repentance to all, though some of them do not deserve it for their deeds; but being long-suffering the Lord willeth them that were called through His Son to be saved."
11[77]:2 I say to him; "Sir, I hope that all when they hear these words will repent; for I am persuaded that each one, when he fully knows his own deeds and fears God, will repent."
11[77]:3 He answered and said unto me; "As many," [saith he,] "as [shall repent] from their whole heart [and] shall cleanse themselves from all the evil deeds aforementioned, and shall add nothing further to their sins, shall receive healing from the Lord for their former sins, unless they be double-minded concerning these commandments, and they shall live unto God. [But as many," saith he, "as shall add to their sins and walk in the lusts of this world, shall condemn themselves to death.]
11[77]:4 But do thou walk in my commandments, and live [unto God; yea, and as many as shall walk in them and shall do rightly, shall live unto God."]
11[77]:5 Having shown me all these things [and told me them] he saith to me; "Now the rest will I declare (unto thee) after a few days."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd-lightfoot.html

 

[williemac]

Interesting conversation between you two (re#97,98, etc. I have posted a passge recently on a few threads that is relevant to this debate. It is found in John5. Here is vs.24 (NKJ)..." Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life"..

Many passages get quoted that tell of people who will be condemned for their iniquity. The mistake is to apply these to they who have passed from death to life and will not come into judgment. As well, in 1John 3:9, as above quoted, many insist that they who are true believers will not sin. However, the verse doesn't say that. It says that we cannot sin. So I will ask anyone....can you sin? The answer is yes. If it were no, there would be no exhortations necessary to abstain from sin. In fact, John himself said that he wrote these things that they may not sin...And in 1John 2:1, he adds..."..but if we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous".

So we need to dispel the myth that a Christian cannot sin, that is from 3:9. The passage is talking about our statis...what God sees when He looks at us. He sees the new man...created righteous and holy (Eph.4:24). He sees the old man..positionally dead already for his sin..having been crucified with Christ. Because of His seed in us, our statis is ; righteous. By faith.

What Jesus sees is different. He will rebuke and chasten those who are His. He made that promise ( "all whom I love"). He will not place us in the way of God's wrath, however. He is our advocate.
Now, can we live in moral purity? Of course. But 24/7... 365? Not a chance. Lets get honest, here. But they who try to motivate us to live pure by suggesting that salvation is at stake....sorry, wrong motivation.