Calvinism?

[amadeus]

@Jane_Doe22 When a person is confronted with the reality of their sin and the evilness of it they don’t want to stay in that state. Why did you repent? Was the conviction of the Holy Spirit forcing you to repent?

The fact that men make foolish choices doesn't change the fact that they do. God only placed one very simple restriction on Adam and Eve. Why did they disobey? The problem for them as for us is stated by the apostle Paul:

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

God gave us a very limited vision of the whole picture because He wanted us to make the right choice even when we could not see His face clearly. Jesus explains this also to Thomas:

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29

This is why we live for God by faith instead of by complete and clear knowledge. God wants us to choose Him because we love Him, not because we have all that we want including answers.

 

[Episkopos]

Many variables, but still only two choices: serve God or not.

For those who are called...yes. Otherwise obey God's laws or not.

 

[Nancy]

Christ took the punishment for all who want to be saved. And let those who do not want to be saved suffer for their sins. “That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:15)

“Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, And causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: We shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, Even of thy holy temple.” (Psalm 65:4)

How do you square those 2 scriptures? The Psalm says"chosen" and John says "whomsoever".

 

[Taken]

Spiritually dead. But alive according to the flesh....if there is a heartbeat and some brain activity that is.

Whose Flesh?

If a Spiritual Event took place...
Your Flesh was Crucified with Christ.
Your Dead Crucified Body has not yet been Risen.
But Jesus Body Was RISEN, and your Flesh Life IS Now In His RISEN Body....while you WAIT for your Body To be RISEN and Glorified.

You and others can See your flesh body walking, talking, doing activities...
That is a Carnal Observation, and mans Carnal Bookeeping Records can reveal evidence of your "alive" Flesh.

However Gods Spiritual Bookeeping Records have your Flesh Dead, Forgiven, Washed, Sanctified, Alive IN Christ; Already Recorded in The Lambs Book of Life...Alive.

In the big picture... Gods Books and Records prevail over manKinds.

You appear to already know that...while others standing by may not.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

How do you square those 2 scriptures? The Psalm says"chosen" and John says "whomsoever".

God Himself "CHOSE" particular men.
(Adam, Hebrews, Jews).

(Outsiders)...other Hebrews, Jews, Gentiles, who came among the Chosen, were encouraged to Become INCLUDED. And to Be "EXCLUDED", if they tried to pervert Gods Word, and encourage such perversion.

God with us arrives...to gather together LOST Jews, having deflected from Gods word...AND
Extends His gathering together, THROUGH PAUL, of Gentiles. Not simply being ALLOWED, but express INVITING IN.

the "whosoever", is in respect to ANYONE, Hebrew, Jew, Gentile, any nation, race, etc...
ALL people, WHO ELECT and CHOOSE TO BE INCLUDED.....and DO SO Become INCLUDED, as God Himself has sanctioned a WAY for that TO BE accomplished.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Nancy]

Nancy, if you're going to state this verse then you are implying that every single soul will be saved in the end since it's God's will. Which, ironically, would go against their "free will" also since they "choose" to reject Christ....

You could also say it is God's will that people don't kill, hate, steal, fornicate...on and on. IF God wanted to do something, ability wise there is NO end to His sovereignty, His Might...He Himself seems to have CHOSEN to allow people to do all kinds of bad stuff so...no free will in choosing to serve Him?

 

[Nancy]

God Himself "CHOSE" particular men.
(Adam, Hebrews, Jews).

(Outsiders)...other Hebrews, Jews, Gentiles, who came among the Chosen, were encouraged to Become INCLUDED. And to Be "EXCLUDED", if they tried to pervert Gods Word, and encourage such perversion.

God with us arrives...to gather together LOST Jews, having deflected from Gods word...AND
Extends His gathering together, THROUGH PAUL, of Gentiles. Not simply being ALLOWED, but express INVITING IN.

the "whosoever", is in respect to ANYONE, Hebrew, Jew, Gentile, any nation, race, etc...
ALL people, WHO ELECT and CHOOSE TO BE INCLUDED.....and DO SO Become INCLUDED, as God Himself has sanctioned a WAY for that TO BE accomplished.

God Bless,
Taken

"God with us arrives" Emmanuel <--- My favorite name for Christ ♥

 

[LC627]

You could also say it is God's will that people don't kill, hate, steal, fornicate...on and on. IF God wanted to do something, ability wise there is NO end to His sovereignty, His Might...He Himself seems to have CHOSEN to allow people to do all kinds of bad stuff so...no free will in choosing to serve Him?

Nancy, there is no way of getting around it. God is the One doing the electing. It is a prideful spirit of the one created to argue with the Creator about how we believe He should be.

Isaiah 45:6-7 - That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Is. 45:9 - Who to the one who quarrels with his Maker - An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, "what are you doing?" Or the thing you are making say, 'he has no hands'?

Is. 45:12 - It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands and I ordained all their host.

 

[LC627]

Job 38:2 - Who is this who obscures My counsel with ignorant words?
Job 40:8 Would you really challenge My justice? Would you declare Me guilty to justify yourself?

 

[Dave L]

How do you square those 2 scriptures? The Psalm says"chosen" and John says "whomsoever".

Whosoever has blond hair and blue eyes most likely has ancestors in northern Europe. Whosoever believes is one whom God showed mercy and saved. Their faith is evidence of that.

 

[Nancy]

Whosoever has blond hair and blue eyes most likely has ancestors in northern Europe. Whosoever believes is one whom God showed mercy and saved. Their faith is evidence of that.

It just seems like you have to be a contortionist to wrest these few scriptures to the detriment of so many other very clear scripture, and as I stated in the OP "my beliefs on the subject of Calvinism are firmly cemented." And, will most likely than not, stay there. Unless or until God can, through my own study or through another Christian, show me any different I don't think you can. You are welcome to try if that is what you desire. I have read/heard all of the arguments presented on this and other forums.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 , my above post was in agreement with you, maybe the bold letters seemed I was being disagreeing? Not at all...they were mostly for other's benefit, lol.

Yeah, that's my bad. I did read it over a few times trying to figure it out...apparently I came up wrong! That happens to me a fair bit, embarrassingly enough. That's life, I guess!

 

[Nancy]

Yeah, that's my bad. I did read it over a few times trying to figure it out...apparently I came up wrong! That happens to me a fair bit, embarrassingly enough. That's life, I guess!

Lol! I have done that more than I will admit

 

[LC627]

It just seems like you have to be a contortionist to wrest these few scriptures to the detriment of so many other very clear scripture, and as I stated in the OP "my beliefs on the subject of Calvinism are firmly cemented." And, will most likely than not, stay there. Unless or until God can, through my own study or through another Christian, show me any different I don't think you can. You are welcome to try if that is what you desire. I have read/heard all of the arguments presented on this and other forums.

Where in the Bible does it state that the purpose of God's election was on the faith of the person? What we see in scripture is that God's predestination is according to His favor and will (Eph. 1:5) Between Jacob and Esau it is the same thing, "God's purpose according to election" (Rom. 9:11)

I've heard all the arguments presented on the opposing side as well. In fact, I did not always believe in the election of God as I do now, I held your position for many years until I faced the reality of mans truly fallen nature. Trust me, I had to wrestle with something's along my journey and submit those thoughts while I studied trying to have a non-biased position. If a person is dead set on their position then no amount of facts will change it, won't see unless you are willing to.

 

[Nancy]

Nancy, there is no way of getting around it. God is the One doing the electing. It is a prideful spirit of the one created to argue with the Creator about how we believe He should be.

Isaiah 45:6-7 - That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Is. 45:9 - Who to the one who quarrels with his Maker - An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth! Will the clay say to the potter, "what are you doing?" Or the thing you are making say, 'he has no hands'?

Is. 45:12 - It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it. I stretched out the heavens with My hands and I ordained all their host.

"It is a prideful spirit of the one created to argue with the Creator about how we believe He should be."
How pray tell, do you that I'm arguing with God?! And, it seems that you are the one who is arguing with me. I already know where you stand, and you are free to share that but then, so am I and I did.
And I will thank you to not assume anything about my spirit. The only being I care what He thinks about me is God.

 

[LC627]

"It is a prideful spirit of the one created to argue with the Creator about how we believe He should be."
How pray tell, do you that I'm arguing with God?! And, it seems that you are the one who is arguing with me. I already know where you stand, and you are free to share that but then, so am I and I did.
And I will thank you to not assume anything about my spirit. The only being I care what He thinks about me is God.

That is all we are doing here, sharing. I was not set on arguing, and really everyone on this thread has contributed in a good manner. I've been enjoying this thread you created and the discussions. If what I said made you upset the purpose was not to ruffle your feathers but to simply state as humans we cannot let our emotions rule over what the bible states (that goes for me too)

 

[Nancy]

That is all we are doing here, sharing. I was not set on arguing, and really everyone on this thread has contributed in a good manner. I've been enjoying this thread you created and the discussions. If what I said made you upset the purpose was not to ruffle your feathers but to simply state as humans we cannot let our emotions rule over what the bible states (that goes for me too)

No LC, I am not upset. I just want us to respect each others stances and, if we truly believe what we take away from His Word to be truth, being open to His teaching, then, what is one to do? I do believe God opens the eyes of His children as He sees fit. If any of us is sincere and our hearts are postured humbly before Him...I do believe He shows us.

 

[LC627]

No LC, I am not upset. I just want us to respect each others stances and, if we truly believe what we take away from His Word to be truth, being open to His teaching, then, what is one to do? I do believe God opens the eyes of His children as He sees fit. If any of us is sincere and our hearts are postured humbly before Him...I do believe He shows us.

Being humble and faithfully serving God is a must, for us all. We are all at different stages of life/faith and that's OK. I pray that we all continue in our faith walk and having these type of conversations is good; we can't ignore difficult topics.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

@Naomi25 , I really appreciate your posts here. I want to go through things with you super throughly, so I'm going to respond here just to the first part of your post first, so we can be thorough with it, before moving to rest of your excellent post.

Sorry, I thought my point was implicit. The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to the truth, but we choose to accept Christ. That is a matter of free will embracing election at that point. We do not slip into a trace only to wake and find we've become "saved". We actively make a conscious choice for Christ once the Holy Spirit impresses upon us our need for him.

Ok.
Do you believe a person have the ability to say "no thank you" and choose to decline Christ's gift here? Is that a valid choice?

As far as God's respect of persons...I'm sorry, but I'm not sure how I feel about that word in regards to God and his relationship with us. He loves us, yes. He grieves over us, yes. He is jealous for us, yes. But respect? Respect is a feeling of deep admiration for someone elicited by their qualities or achievements. As a race, humankind attempted to dethrone God and have spent the rest of history in open rebellion against him. Should he respect us? Should he respect even those he has redeemed?

I was referring to Acts 10 in my response, particularly verse 34:
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons
Sorry if that wasn't clear.

(Stopping here for now to talk this part thoroughly first).

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 , I really appreciate your posts here. I want to go through things with you super throughly, so I'm going to respond here just to the first part of your post first, so we can be thorough with it, before moving to rest of your excellent post.

Ok.
Do you believe a person have the ability to say "no thank you" and choose to decline Christ's gift here? Is that a valid choice?

Well, I think, I would ask you this: do we see a choice in the garden of Eden? It seems to me that we do. God gave Adam and Eve a choice...to eat in disobedience or not to in obedience. We know what they chose.
But this is where God's amazing ability to work his purposes in a dual way occurs, and we see it all throughout scripture. While creating perfection and desiring humanity not to sin, he still planned for his glory to be shown when they did. Likewise in many of the OT prophecies we see God announcing judgement on a city or people, but when they make the choice to repent, he does not bring that prophecy to pass.
So, as confusing at it may be, I believe that when it comes to God...a being so far beyond our comprehension and power, yes we have the choice, but also he steers the outcome. But we must not see that as God "forcing" us. Remember, the way God redeemed mankind was to send his Son to take our place. With the love the act displayed, it cannot be many people who reject the offer once they fully understand it.

I was referring to Acts 10 in my response, particularly verse 34:
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons
Sorry if that wasn't clear.

(Stopping here for now to talk this part thoroughly first).

Thanks for clearing that up. That's interesting...in my version (ESV), that verse reads " God shows no partiality but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him "
Which would seem to change the meaning of that verse significantly, wouldn't you say? Rather than meaning "God does as he pleases to anyone he pleases" it more means that regardless of nationality, if one comes to him, he will accept them.