That's a lot of placing. But how does a person know that he is placing correctly? Doesn't the sinful part of us also cry out to be saved?
Calvinism?
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That's a lot of placing. But how does a person know that he is placing correctly? Doesn't the sinful part of us also cry out to be saved?
Irresistible grace does not mean "forced". It means that is it too attractive to pass up. If you were in debt and bankrupt and someone handed you 50 million dollars would you say, "how dare you give me this money!" Absolutely not. When someone is convicted by the Holy Spirit and sees their sins and the great mercy of God they want/desire to repent. God does not force, He activates. Everyone is blind to their sin until convicted.
Yes...but God does not do this to everyone. And even among they who are convicted...there are different depths of conversion and anointings.
So there is no law that compels God to do always the same thing.
Agreed. And also, I agree with: John 16:8 The world, which means every person to me, will be convicted and given the choice to accept or not.
Why is this necessary? This reminds me of the Jesuits who tried baptizing native American babies to get them "saved".
God is beyond the need to do anything at all. His sovereignty is absolute. As such He can do as He wills.
The idea of "saved or not" is a religious invention...based on a status that no one knows if it will be vindicated by God. Salvation always has an IF.
God will judge all people.
Leave it at that.
Be a witness and be ready to preach the gospel when you have a chance to...but beyond that you are responsible to God for what He has given you....just like everybody else.
Why is WHAT necessary?
I have no idea what you mean about the Jesuits baptizing babies to get them saved. Nor do I see how in any way it connects to what I said.
"God is beyond the need to do anything at all. His sovereignty is absolute. As such He can do as He wills." Well, of course! and His will is that NONE SHOULD PERISH. And, combine that with one of many other posts that tell us that the Holy Spirit (Whom nobody can come to God without) convicts the WORLD of sin.
"Be a witness and be ready to preach the gospel when you have a chance to...but beyond that you are responsible to God for what He has given you....just like everybody else." That is all elementary and has not a thing to do with my post.
Would you turn down a life raft if you were on a ship that’s sinking in the middle of the ocean? No you wouldn’t. Humans as a whole are clearly blind to the glory of God. Everything in creation tells of God’s presence and glory. I believe once the heart has been cut to the core in conviction the person is suddenly aware of the great truth of the gospel and their sins and desires forgiveness and won’t say “no thanks”
That doesn't actually answer my question.
Do you believe a person has the ability to say "no thank you"?
No, they willing accept / come to God because once aware of their sin and the truth of the Word they repent. God is not forcing it upon them, God is activating and irresistible = too appealing to pass up. And you never answered my question, would you pass up the life raft?
@Jane_Doe22 When a person is confronted with the reality of their sin and the evilness of it they don’t want to stay in that state. Why did you repent? Was the conviction of the Holy Spirit forcing you to repent?
If a person doesn't have the ability to say "no" then by definition they have zero free will in the matter and are indeed being forced.
it’s already been stated mans will is not free. It’s enslaved to sin and if enslaved, then it’s not free.
@Jane_Doe22 did the Holy Spirit force you to repent? Yes or no? And if no, then why did you not pass up the opportunity to repent?
I don't believe in a limited atonement or a God of limited choices.
I believe in a God that died for the entire world and offers the gift salvation to every person. People have the ability to say "yes" or "no". And yes, some people do indeed say "no" because they choose instead to love the temporary things of this world. Just like people know that being obese is a wrecking ball for you health/life, but an overweight person will still choose to eat the donut sitting right in front of them anyway.
Totally disagree with you there. Sin is a slaver yes but Christ offers the way to freedom for all that. He didn't force you into slavery and He doesn't force you to heaven. You always have the ability to choose.
The Holy Spirit prompts everyone to repent. Each person has a choice whether or not they listen or ignore that prompting. And some people do indeed choose to ignore it.
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You're welcomed to believe that all that. Like I said, God is not forcing, He is activating. Don't forget, You believe in a form of limited atonement because not everyone will be saved, your view is limited as well. It is that or universal atonement. Mankind is fully evil, fallen, and in sin with no desire for God.
Everyone has is offered the gift of salvation. God so loved the world -- the entirety of it --- that He gave His Only Begotten Son. The Spirit prompts everyone, not just some.
Never in the Bible does it talk about people that God so hated he created to not die for and just leave for doom.
Now of course some people refuse Christ's gift. But that's not because God loves them any less or offered them any less of an amazing gift. It was their choice, and God does not force.
Naomi25
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Hi Jane, no, I most certainly don't see your words as an attack. I think Christians should be able to talk about things like this as brothers and sisters. Sure, we have differences of opinions, but ultimately, we are one in Christ.
To be openly honest back at you, I have not spoken to someone who has been through what you have before. So I am humbled by your willingness to share and feel the weight of what you have been through...and ask a measure of grace if I blunder and say something that perhaps I shouldn't.
I think there is a misconception when it comes to election and the idea that one is 'forced' into faith, that our free will is taken away in the face of an avalanche of God's will.
The bible tells us that mankind, as we are, rejects God and do not seek him. We are bound in sin and death and seem quite happy where we are (Rom 3:10-12). Election is the process in which God sends his Holy Spirit and awakens a deadened spirit to see and understand that new life is possible, freedom is possible, love and forgiveness is possible. The person then takes the leap into the arms of God with a full heart, no longer bound or enslaved and blinded by sin.
We know this to be true as we look at this "on the ground", so to speak. How many people have we tried to talk to about faith matters, and they just don't "get" it? Until the Spirit opens their eyes, they just can't. But for the elect, there was that very definite moment where we had the "ah ha!" and then made our own, conscious decision to move to Christ. In a very real way, the decision was a foregone conclusion, because how can anyone, knowing the sacrifice and love of Christ, want to reject him? But still, it was our choice; God didn't over-ride our brains for that moment in time!
As far as the idea of those bound for fire...yes. This is hard. And, like most people when talking about this doctrine, I could quote the scripture that talks about God's right as sovereign ruler to do whatever he pleases. And that is indeed true. But...I think we need to remember that this world and how it is, and how it will play out, has sin to thank. And that is on us. And that also gives credence to the fact that God does, indeed, let us have free will. Consider: God hates sin, but he allows sin to continue. He desires none to perish, but he allows mankind to continue in their rejection of him. The real miracle is that he woos some to him. I know the question then becomes, "why does he not woo everyone?" Well, I sort of went over my thoughts on the how's and why's in my post to Nancy in #130, so won't go over it again. Basically, God has this wonderful ability to be dualistic, but in a good way! Do I fully understand it? No! But do I want a God I fully understand? Not really, that would make him rather small.
I think when it comes to tough subjects like this, whether it's hard to understand, or hard to accept, we must just fall back on what we do know absolutely about God. He is all powerful, all loving and will uphold justice as he is holy. Put simply, I trust him. I trust him with the hard stuff, even if it makes me nervous or I can't understand in my flesh how it can be "good or fair". And I think, because of who he is, that if I'm wrong in my understanding of all this, he won't hold it against me. After all...most people are just doing their best to understand things that are...let's face it, hard to understand! And it's never as simple as an idea on page: black and white...there are always human issues that interact with how we try and understand these things. I think God understands that.
Psalm 5:5 - The boastful cannot stand in Your presence; You hate all evil doers.
Proverbs 16:4 - The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Romans 9:22,23 - And what if God, desiring to display His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath ready for destruction? And what if He did this to make known the riches of His glory on objects of mercy that He prepared beforehand for glory.
God is not all rainbows and butterflies. Lets not forget we have the rainbow because He brought judgment on the whole world wiping all mankind out due to their evil and this was 6 chapters into the bible
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