Calvinism?

[LC627]

Doesn't really support the Calvinist position.

Ephesians 1:4 - For HE CHOSE us in Him, before the foundation of the world....

God is the One doing the electing.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Hi Jane, no, I most certainly don't see your words as an attack. I think Christians should be able to talk about things like this as brothers and sisters. Sure, we have differences of opinions, but ultimately, we are one in Christ.
To be openly honest back at you, I have not spoken to someone who has been through what you have before. So I am humbled by your willingness to share and feel the weight of what you have been through...and ask a measure of grace if I blunder and say something that perhaps I shouldn't.
I think there is a misconception when it comes to election and the idea that one is 'forced' into faith, that our free will is taken away in the face of an avalanche of God's will.

I greatly appreciate your charitable tone. Thank you.

The bible tells us that mankind, as we are, rejects God and do not seek him. We are bound in sin and death and seem quite happy where we are (Rom 3:10-12). Election is the process in which God sends his Holy Spirit and awakens a deadened spirit to see and understand that new life is possible, freedom is possible, love and forgiveness is possible. The person then takes the leap into the arms of God with a full heart, no longer bound or enslaved and blinded by sin.

You skipped the part where a person has any choice in the matter.
And the part where God, not being a respecter of persons, sends to Holy Spirit to everyone single person.

We know this to be true as we look at this "on the ground", so to speak.

No, you skipped to majorly important parts.

because how can anyone, knowing the sacrifice and love of Christ, want to reject him?

The same reason a morbidly obese person will choose to continue stuffing their face full of donuts, despite knowing full well it's killing them. It's choosing to value the short term temporary things more than the big picture.

I do have more very pointed things to say here... but alas I feel they are not appropriate for the public board.

And it's never as simple as an idea on page

God is simple. God is Love.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Ephesians 1:4 - For HE CHOSE us in Him, before the foundation of the world....

God is the One doing the electing.

He loved and choose everyone, and died for everyone.
Some folks choose to reject Him.

 

[LC627]

we are all equally spiritually dead in sin so what made you choose while the next person does not? Are you smarter than them? When you stand before God can you say, "Im here all on my own choosing and doing" ? Try telling an unsaved person to "get with the program" and believe. You'll soon find out that people are blind and can't understand the Gospel on their own ability until the Holy Spirit acts first.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

we are all equally spiritually dead in sin so what made you choose while the next person does not? Are you smarter than them? When you stand before God can you say, "Im here all on my own choosing and doing" ? Try telling an unsaved person to "get with the program" and believe. You'll soon find out that people are blind and can't understand the Gospel on their own ability until the Holy Spirit acts first.

"what made you choose"
Again, you're trying to take free will out of the equation -- it's not being made to choose anything. It not because person A is smarter or prettier or more loved/elect than person B. We are not robots to be programed.

And again, God is no respecter of persons and sends the Holy Spirit to everyone.

 

[LC627]

"what made you choose"
Again, you're trying to take free will out of the equation -- it's not being made to choose anything. It not because person A is smarter or prettier or more loved/elect than person B. We are not robots to be programed.

It appears all my post are not even being read, which is not surprising. It is not about "free" will or being "robots"

 

[Naomi25]

"Aren't you, in essence, complaining about God having picked you? Is it so important that you had to have picked God? Do we care?"
The only thing about your post that I will take issue with is that, I DO care because, if you think about the implications involved here, how can you not care about the un-saved. Especially your family and friends-loved ones. It kinda reminds me of "I got mine, so who cares". Please do not take this as an attack, this is my largest issue with that doctrine. We cannot pray someone into salvation, but we can pray for God to open their spiritual eyes. ♥

Actually, I do, in fact, agree with you here...in that there is concern for others. My point (which was attempting to be tongue in cheek) was that you only hear complaints from Christians on the subject, and they always seemed bummed about being picked! Does that not sound strange!!?

But, I am, I promise you, quite capable of putting levity aside on the situation. Here is a good article by Tim Keller I found on TGC site:

"The doctrine of election—that those who freely come to God are those whom God has freely chosen—is easy to understand, and clearly taught in God's Word, but it is not easy to accept. It has given thoughtful believers problems for centuries, and continues to do so today.

Here are three of the most common questions the doctrine of election raises:


1. If you believe in election, doesn’t that leave you with the problem of why God doesn’t choose to save everyone?
Yes, but the same is true for Christians who don’t believe in election. Election doesn’t create the problem, it only leads us to think about it. To deny the doctrine of election does not help you escape the issue. All Christians have this problem, and so we cannot object to election by appealing to it. A person who doesn’t believe in election faces this dilemma:

(a) God wants everybody saved.

(b) God could save everyone.

(c) God does not.

The question, though, still remains: Why not? That is the ultimate mystery, but abandoning the doctrine of election does not answer it.

Someone says: “But I believe that though God doesn’t want us to be lost, some are lost because they choose wrongly and God will not violate their freedom of choice.” But why is freedom of choice sacrosanct? I try to honor my child’s freedom of will, but not if I see he is about to be killed by it! Why can’t God “insult” our freedom of will for a moment and save us for eternity?


Regardless of whether you think we are saved by our choice or by God’s, you still face the same question: Why wouldn’t God save us all if he has the power and desire to do so? Again, it is a hard question, but it cannot be used as an argument against the doctrine of election.

We can go further. Suppose election is not true. Suppose that eons ago God set up salvation on this system: Every person will have an equal ability to accept or reject Christ, who will die and be raised and be presented through the gospel message. The moment God determined to set up salvation on that system, he would’ve immediately known exactly which persons would be saved and which would be condemned on that basis. So the minute he “set it up,” he would be de facto electing some and passing over others. We come out to the same place. God could save all, but he doesn’t.

So why doesn’t he? We can only know two things. First, the answer must have something to do with his perfect nature. He is perfectly loving and perfectly righteous, and neither can be preferred over the other or he wouldn’t be God. Somehow the answer has to do with his being consistent with himself. Second, we cannot see the whole picture. Why? If we can conceive of a more merciful system of salvation than God has, we must not see it rightly, for God is more merciful than we can ever imagine. Indeed, when we finally see the whole plan and answer, we will not be able to find fault with it.

2. But if everything is fixed and certain, why pray, evangelize, or do anything at all?
This objection is short-sighted. First, if everything was not planned by a holy and loving God, we’d be absolutely terrified by the prospect of even getting up in the morning. Our actions (always done with very little understanding) could have horrible consequences. Everything would depend on us! If everything was not planned by a holy and loving God, there’d be enormous pressure on Christians when we evangelize. We would know our inarticulateness could result in a person missing his or her one “chance” for salvation. It would be a horrible prospect.

Second, we evangelize and pray because of the privilege of sharing in God’s work with him. For example, a father might be able to chop wood for the stove himself, but he asks his children to learn to chop the wood and stoke the fire as well. What if the children say, “We have no incentive to chop the wood. We know that if we don’t cut it, our father will do it anyway—he won’t let us freeze!” But the father would respond, “Of course I could do it myself, but I want you to share the work with me.” The authority and the privilege of working with our heavenly Father is surely plenty of incentive. He wants to work with us and for us.

Also, we are not supposed to second-guess God. We are never to try to guess who is “elect”—ever! God calls all to repentance and so should we. In fact, the doctrine of election should give us far more hope about working with people. Why? Because no one is a hopeless case! From a human point of view, many look totally hard and lost, but since salvation is by God’s election, we should treat everyone and anyone with hope, since God calls the dead to life through us.

Therefore, God’s absolute sovereignty is a motivation to evangelize, not a discouragement. In Acts 18, Paul is in Corinth and the gospel has been rejected by the Jews there. How does God encourage Paul not to be afraid, to “keep on speaking and not be silent” (v. 9)? “I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city” (v. 10). God assures Paul of his presence, his protection, and his election. And Paul responds by staying “for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God” (v. 11). The point is this: the next person you pray for and/or share the gospel with may be one of God’s elect, and you may be part of the way God has ordained to bring them to faith.

3. I believe the Bible and I see all the teaching about election, but why do I still dislike it?
My theory is that the biblical gospel is so supernatural that it always combines qualities that by natural reason and culture we cannot keep together. The doctrine of justification is one way of looking at the gospel. It combines both law and love in ways no one could have thought up. We are saved apart from the law so that now we can obey the law. All other philosophies are either law-ism (legalistic) or law-less (antinomian). Now, the doctrine of election is just the gospel viewed from another perspective. It combines the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of human beings. Here, too, we find that human cultures and philosophies cannot combine these things.

Whoever you are, you come from a culture that has saturated you in some view that’s so unbalanced that you will see the doctrine of election as something more simple and extreme than it really is. Eastern philosophies and religions have always been more fatalistic. They believe individual autonomy to be an illusion. When people from that background come to the gospel, they may see it as “just individualism.” On the other hand, Western secularism believes strongly in the right and power of individuals to determine their own course and destiny. When people from that background come to the gospel, they see it as “just fatalism.”

No matter which “side” we come from and no matter our culture or temperament, then, we must make an effort to discern the carefully nuanced balances of the gospel of free election and justification. We must remember the prejudices we bring with us to the Scriptures. And we must be willing to learn to balance out our own views."

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Actually, I do, in fact, agree with you here...in that there is concern for others. My point (which was attempting to be tongue in cheek) was that you only hear complaints from Christians on the subject, and they always seemed bummed about being picked! Does that not sound strange!!?

But, I am, I promise you, quite capable of putting levity aside on the situation. Here is a good article by Tim Keller I found on TGC site:

"The doctrine of election—that those who freely come to God are those whom God has freely chosen—is easy to understand, and clearly taught in God's Word, but it is not easy to accept. It has given thoughtful believers problems for centuries, and continues to do so today.

Here are three of the most common questions the doctrine of election raises:


1. If you believe in election, doesn’t that leave you with the problem of why God doesn’t choose to save everyone?
Yes, but the same is true for Christians who don’t believe in election. Election doesn’t create the problem, it only leads us to think about it. To deny the doctrine of election does not help you escape the issue. All Christians have this problem, and so we cannot object to election by appealing to it. A person who doesn’t believe in election faces this dilemma:

(a) God wants everybody saved.

(b) God could save everyone.

(c) God does not.

The question, though, still remains: Why not? That is the ultimate mystery, but abandoning the doctrine of election does not answer it.

Someone says: “But I believe that though God doesn’t want us to be lost, some are lost because they choose wrongly and God will not violate their freedom of choice.” But why is freedom of choice sacrosanct? I try to honor my child’s freedom of will, but not if I see he is about to be killed by it! Why can’t God “insult” our freedom of will for a moment and save us for eternity?


Regardless of whether you think we are saved by our choice or by God’s, you still face the same question: Why wouldn’t God save us all if he has the power and desire to do so? Again, it is a hard question, but it cannot be used as an argument against the doctrine of election.

We can go further. Suppose election is not true. Suppose that eons ago God set up salvation on this system: Every person will have an equal ability to accept or reject Christ, who will die and be raised and be presented through the gospel message. The moment God determined to set up salvation on that system, he would’ve immediately known exactly which persons would be saved and which would be condemned on that basis. So the minute he “set it up,” he would be de facto electing some and passing over others. We come out to the same place. God could save all, but he doesn’t.

So why doesn’t he? We can only know two things. First, the answer must have something to do with his perfect nature. He is perfectly loving and perfectly righteous, and neither can be preferred over the other or he wouldn’t be God. Somehow the answer has to do with his being consistent with himself. Second, we cannot see the whole picture. Why? If we can conceive of a more merciful system of salvation than God has, we must not see it rightly, for God is more merciful than we can ever imagine. Indeed, when we finally see the whole plan and answer, we will not be able to find fault with it.

2. But if everything is fixed and certain, why pray, evangelize, or do anything at all?
This objection is short-sighted. First, if everything was not planned by a holy and loving God, we’d be absolutely terrified by the prospect of even getting up in the morning. Our actions (always done with very little understanding) could have horrible consequences. Everything would depend on us! If everything was not planned by a holy and loving God, there’d be enormous pressure on Christians when we evangelize. We would know our inarticulateness could result in a person missing his or her one “chance” for salvation. It would be a horrible prospect.

Second, we evangelize and pray because of the privilege of sharing in God’s work with him. For example, a father might be able to chop wood for the stove himself, but he asks his children to learn to chop the wood and stoke the fire as well. What if the children say, “We have no incentive to chop the wood. We know that if we don’t cut it, our father will do it anyway—he won’t let us freeze!” But the father would respond, “Of course I could do it myself, but I want you to share the work with me.” The authority and the privilege of working with our heavenly Father is surely plenty of incentive. He wants to work with us and for us.

Also, we are not supposed to second-guess God. We are never to try to guess who is “elect”—ever! God calls all to repentance and so should we. In fact, the doctrine of election should give us far more hope about working with people. Why? Because no one is a hopeless case! From a human point of view, many look totally hard and lost, but since salvation is by God’s election, we should treat everyone and anyone with hope, since God calls the dead to life through us.

Therefore, God’s absolute sovereignty is a motivation to evangelize, not a discouragement. In Acts 18, Paul is in Corinth and the gospel has been rejected by the Jews there. How does God encourage Paul not to be afraid, to “keep on speaking and not be silent” (v. 9)? “I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city” (v. 10). God assures Paul of his presence, his protection, and his election. And Paul responds by staying “for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God” (v. 11). The point is this: the next person you pray for and/or share the gospel with may be one of God’s elect, and you may be part of the way God has ordained to bring them to faith.

3. I believe the Bible and I see all the teaching about election, but why do I still dislike it?
My theory is that the biblical gospel is so supernatural that it always combines qualities that by natural reason and culture we cannot keep together. The doctrine of justification is one way of looking at the gospel. It combines both law and love in ways no one could have thought up. We are saved apart from the law so that now we can obey the law. All other philosophies are either law-ism (legalistic) or law-less (antinomian). Now, the doctrine of election is just the gospel viewed from another perspective. It combines the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of human beings. Here, too, we find that human cultures and philosophies cannot combine these things.

Whoever you are, you come from a culture that has saturated you in some view that’s so unbalanced that you will see the doctrine of election as something more simple and extreme than it really is. Eastern philosophies and religions have always been more fatalistic. They believe individual autonomy to be an illusion. When people from that background come to the gospel, they may see it as “just individualism.” On the other hand, Western secularism believes strongly in the right and power of individuals to determine their own course and destiny. When people from that background come to the gospel, they see it as “just fatalism.”

No matter which “side” we come from and no matter our culture or temperament, then, we must make an effort to discern the carefully nuanced balances of the gospel of free election and justification. We must remember the prejudices we bring with us to the Scriptures. And we must be willing to learn to balance out our own views."

Source for this giant post: 3 Objections to the Doctrine of Election

 

[Nancy]

Actually, I do, in fact, agree with you here...in that there is concern for others. My point (which was attempting to be tongue in cheek) was that you only hear complaints from Christians on the subject, and they always seemed bummed about being picked! Does that not sound strange!!?

But, I am, I promise you, quite capable of putting levity aside on the situation. Here is a good article by Tim Keller I found on TGC site:

"The doctrine of election—that those who freely come to God are those whom God has freely chosen—is easy to understand, and clearly taught in God's Word, but it is not easy to accept. It has given thoughtful believers problems for centuries, and continues to do so today.

Here are three of the most common questions the doctrine of election raises:


1. If you believe in election, doesn’t that leave you with the problem of why God doesn’t choose to save everyone?
Yes, but the same is true for Christians who don’t believe in election. Election doesn’t create the problem, it only leads us to think about it. To deny the doctrine of election does not help you escape the issue. All Christians have this problem, and so we cannot object to election by appealing to it. A person who doesn’t believe in election faces this dilemma:

(a) God wants everybody saved.

(b) God could save everyone.

(c) God does not.

The question, though, still remains: Why not? That is the ultimate mystery, but abandoning the doctrine of election does not answer it.

Someone says: “But I believe that though God doesn’t want us to be lost, some are lost because they choose wrongly and God will not violate their freedom of choice.” But why is freedom of choice sacrosanct? I try to honor my child’s freedom of will, but not if I see he is about to be killed by it! Why can’t God “insult” our freedom of will for a moment and save us for eternity?


Regardless of whether you think we are saved by our choice or by God’s, you still face the same question: Why wouldn’t God save us all if he has the power and desire to do so? Again, it is a hard question, but it cannot be used as an argument against the doctrine of election.

We can go further. Suppose election is not true. Suppose that eons ago God set up salvation on this system: Every person will have an equal ability to accept or reject Christ, who will die and be raised and be presented through the gospel message. The moment God determined to set up salvation on that system, he would’ve immediately known exactly which persons would be saved and which would be condemned on that basis. So the minute he “set it up,” he would be de facto electing some and passing over others. We come out to the same place. God could save all, but he doesn’t.

So why doesn’t he? We can only know two things. First, the answer must have something to do with his perfect nature. He is perfectly loving and perfectly righteous, and neither can be preferred over the other or he wouldn’t be God. Somehow the answer has to do with his being consistent with himself. Second, we cannot see the whole picture. Why? If we can conceive of a more merciful system of salvation than God has, we must not see it rightly, for God is more merciful than we can ever imagine. Indeed, when we finally see the whole plan and answer, we will not be able to find fault with it.

2. But if everything is fixed and certain, why pray, evangelize, or do anything at all?
This objection is short-sighted. First, if everything was not planned by a holy and loving God, we’d be absolutely terrified by the prospect of even getting up in the morning. Our actions (always done with very little understanding) could have horrible consequences. Everything would depend on us! If everything was not planned by a holy and loving God, there’d be enormous pressure on Christians when we evangelize. We would know our inarticulateness could result in a person missing his or her one “chance” for salvation. It would be a horrible prospect.

Second, we evangelize and pray because of the privilege of sharing in God’s work with him. For example, a father might be able to chop wood for the stove himself, but he asks his children to learn to chop the wood and stoke the fire as well. What if the children say, “We have no incentive to chop the wood. We know that if we don’t cut it, our father will do it anyway—he won’t let us freeze!” But the father would respond, “Of course I could do it myself, but I want you to share the work with me.” The authority and the privilege of working with our heavenly Father is surely plenty of incentive. He wants to work with us and for us.

Also, we are not supposed to second-guess God. We are never to try to guess who is “elect”—ever! God calls all to repentance and so should we. In fact, the doctrine of election should give us far more hope about working with people. Why? Because no one is a hopeless case! From a human point of view, many look totally hard and lost, but since salvation is by God’s election, we should treat everyone and anyone with hope, since God calls the dead to life through us.

Therefore, God’s absolute sovereignty is a motivation to evangelize, not a discouragement. In Acts 18, Paul is in Corinth and the gospel has been rejected by the Jews there. How does God encourage Paul not to be afraid, to “keep on speaking and not be silent” (v. 9)? “I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city” (v. 10). God assures Paul of his presence, his protection, and his election. And Paul responds by staying “for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God” (v. 11). The point is this: the next person you pray for and/or share the gospel with may be one of God’s elect, and you may be part of the way God has ordained to bring them to faith.

3. I believe the Bible and I see all the teaching about election, but why do I still dislike it?
My theory is that the biblical gospel is so supernatural that it always combines qualities that by natural reason and culture we cannot keep together. The doctrine of justification is one way of looking at the gospel. It combines both law and love in ways no one could have thought up. We are saved apart from the law so that now we can obey the law. All other philosophies are either law-ism (legalistic) or law-less (antinomian). Now, the doctrine of election is just the gospel viewed from another perspective. It combines the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of human beings. Here, too, we find that human cultures and philosophies cannot combine these things.

Whoever you are, you come from a culture that has saturated you in some view that’s so unbalanced that you will see the doctrine of election as something more simple and extreme than it really is. Eastern philosophies and religions have always been more fatalistic. They believe individual autonomy to be an illusion. When people from that background come to the gospel, they may see it as “just individualism.” On the other hand, Western secularism believes strongly in the right and power of individuals to determine their own course and destiny. When people from that background come to the gospel, they see it as “just fatalism.”

No matter which “side” we come from and no matter our culture or temperament, then, we must make an effort to discern the carefully nuanced balances of the gospel of free election and justification. We must remember the prejudices we bring with us to the Scriptures. And we must be willing to learn to balance out our own views."

Thank you! And well written article.
I must say though, there was nothing I had not already read or thought of before in it.

 

[Nancy]

Actually, I do, in fact, agree with you here...in that there is concern for others. My point (which was attempting to be tongue in cheek) was that you only hear complaints from Christians on the subject, and they always seemed bummed about being picked! Does that not sound strange!!?

But, I am, I promise you, quite capable of putting levity aside on the situation. Here is a good article by Tim Keller I found on TGC site:

"The doctrine of election—that those who freely come to God are those whom God has freely chosen—is easy to understand, and clearly taught in God's Word, but it is not easy to accept. It has given thoughtful believers problems for centuries, and continues to do so today.

Here are three of the most common questions the doctrine of election raises:


1. If you believe in election, doesn’t that leave you with the problem of why God doesn’t choose to save everyone?
Yes, but the same is true for Christians who don’t believe in election. Election doesn’t create the problem, it only leads us to think about it. To deny the doctrine of election does not help you escape the issue. All Christians have this problem, and so we cannot object to election by appealing to it. A person who doesn’t believe in election faces this dilemma:

(a) God wants everybody saved.

(b) God could save everyone.

(c) God does not.

The question, though, still remains: Why not? That is the ultimate mystery, but abandoning the doctrine of election does not answer it.

Someone says: “But I believe that though God doesn’t want us to be lost, some are lost because they choose wrongly and God will not violate their freedom of choice.” But why is freedom of choice sacrosanct? I try to honor my child’s freedom of will, but not if I see he is about to be killed by it! Why can’t God “insult” our freedom of will for a moment and save us for eternity?


Regardless of whether you think we are saved by our choice or by God’s, you still face the same question: Why wouldn’t God save us all if he has the power and desire to do so? Again, it is a hard question, but it cannot be used as an argument against the doctrine of election.

We can go further. Suppose election is not true. Suppose that eons ago God set up salvation on this system: Every person will have an equal ability to accept or reject Christ, who will die and be raised and be presented through the gospel message. The moment God determined to set up salvation on that system, he would’ve immediately known exactly which persons would be saved and which would be condemned on that basis. So the minute he “set it up,” he would be de facto electing some and passing over others. We come out to the same place. God could save all, but he doesn’t.

So why doesn’t he? We can only know two things. First, the answer must have something to do with his perfect nature. He is perfectly loving and perfectly righteous, and neither can be preferred over the other or he wouldn’t be God. Somehow the answer has to do with his being consistent with himself. Second, we cannot see the whole picture. Why? If we can conceive of a more merciful system of salvation than God has, we must not see it rightly, for God is more merciful than we can ever imagine. Indeed, when we finally see the whole plan and answer, we will not be able to find fault with it.

2. But if everything is fixed and certain, why pray, evangelize, or do anything at all?
This objection is short-sighted. First, if everything was not planned by a holy and loving God, we’d be absolutely terrified by the prospect of even getting up in the morning. Our actions (always done with very little understanding) could have horrible consequences. Everything would depend on us! If everything was not planned by a holy and loving God, there’d be enormous pressure on Christians when we evangelize. We would know our inarticulateness could result in a person missing his or her one “chance” for salvation. It would be a horrible prospect.

Second, we evangelize and pray because of the privilege of sharing in God’s work with him. For example, a father might be able to chop wood for the stove himself, but he asks his children to learn to chop the wood and stoke the fire as well. What if the children say, “We have no incentive to chop the wood. We know that if we don’t cut it, our father will do it anyway—he won’t let us freeze!” But the father would respond, “Of course I could do it myself, but I want you to share the work with me.” The authority and the privilege of working with our heavenly Father is surely plenty of incentive. He wants to work with us and for us.

Also, we are not supposed to second-guess God. We are never to try to guess who is “elect”—ever! God calls all to repentance and so should we. In fact, the doctrine of election should give us far more hope about working with people. Why? Because no one is a hopeless case! From a human point of view, many look totally hard and lost, but since salvation is by God’s election, we should treat everyone and anyone with hope, since God calls the dead to life through us.

Therefore, God’s absolute sovereignty is a motivation to evangelize, not a discouragement. In Acts 18, Paul is in Corinth and the gospel has been rejected by the Jews there. How does God encourage Paul not to be afraid, to “keep on speaking and not be silent” (v. 9)? “I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city” (v. 10). God assures Paul of his presence, his protection, and his election. And Paul responds by staying “for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God” (v. 11). The point is this: the next person you pray for and/or share the gospel with may be one of God’s elect, and you may be part of the way God has ordained to bring them to faith.

3. I believe the Bible and I see all the teaching about election, but why do I still dislike it?
My theory is that the biblical gospel is so supernatural that it always combines qualities that by natural reason and culture we cannot keep together. The doctrine of justification is one way of looking at the gospel. It combines both law and love in ways no one could have thought up. We are saved apart from the law so that now we can obey the law. All other philosophies are either law-ism (legalistic) or law-less (antinomian). Now, the doctrine of election is just the gospel viewed from another perspective. It combines the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of human beings. Here, too, we find that human cultures and philosophies cannot combine these things.

Whoever you are, you come from a culture that has saturated you in some view that’s so unbalanced that you will see the doctrine of election as something more simple and extreme than it really is. Eastern philosophies and religions have always been more fatalistic. They believe individual autonomy to be an illusion. When people from that background come to the gospel, they may see it as “just individualism.” On the other hand, Western secularism believes strongly in the right and power of individuals to determine their own course and destiny. When people from that background come to the gospel, they see it as “just fatalism.”

No matter which “side” we come from and no matter our culture or temperament, then, we must make an effort to discern the carefully nuanced balances of the gospel of free election and justification. We must remember the prejudices we bring with us to the Scriptures. And we must be willing to learn to balance out our own views."

"(a) God wants everybody saved.

(b) God could save everyone.

(c) God does not."

A- Is it not His will? 1 Timothy 2:4
“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” I would say, yes it is His will.
B- God could save everyone. Of course He could. He could do ANYTHING He wants He is all-powerful ♥
C- God does not (save everyone-my addition)." If He did, then Jesus died in vain. God is just and faithful, He does not EVER break His promises. To Himself or us. He is a God that requires a blood sacrifice for sin. He is a God who requires PERFECTION. And He is Love-He sent us Jesus Christ. We (humans) broke the world out of dis-obedience, and now He is the only one who can fix it.

 

[Naomi25]

I greatly appreciate your charitable tone. Thank you.

You skipped the part where a person has any choice in the matter.
And the part where God, not being a respecter of persons, sends to Holy Spirit to everyone single person.

Sorry, I thought my point was implicit. The Holy Spirit opens our eyes to the truth, but we choose to accept Christ. That is a matter of free will embracing election at that point. We do not slip into a trace only to wake and find we've become "saved". We actively make a conscious choice for Christ once the Holy Spirit impresses upon us our need for him.

As far as God's respect of persons...I'm sorry, but I'm not sure how I feel about that word in regards to God and his relationship with us. He loves us, yes. He grieves over us, yes. He is jealous for us, yes. But respect? Respect is a feeling of deep admiration for someone elicited by their qualities or achievements. As a race, humankind attempted to dethrone God and have spent the rest of history in open rebellion against him. Should he respect us? Should he respect even those he has redeemed? Even though we love and serve him, we still fall woefully short. It is only because we have Christ's life standing in our place that we have justification and the promise of glorification. Our feeble attempts at works, or 'qualities and achievements' can hardly stand for something that would garner his respect. And what of fallen, rebellious mankind? Those still openly hostile to God? Those who say he doesn't exist or shake their fist at him and tell him how he should be and what he should do? Should he respect them? I think I must say no.
And I think, sadly, I must say that the bible is clear that he does not send his HS to all. Paul tells us:

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9:22–23

Understanding or approving of God's purposes are not easy at times, but it seems clear in both scripture, and how it plays out in "real life" that not every one comes to Christ, which is how the bible paints true salvation in the Spirit. God, for his purposes, does not draw everyone to Christ. Who are we to tell him that is incorrect or outrageous? He is the creator, we are but created beings.

No, you skipped to majorly important parts.

Sorry, not quite sure what 'parts' I've skipped here. Can you clarify? Thanks!

The same reason a morbidly obese person will choose to continue stuffing their face full of donuts, despite knowing full well it's killing them. It's choosing to value the short term temporary things more than the big picture.

Except, I would contend the Son of God is a little more persuasive than a donut. God woos. He chases, he loves, he contends. Sometimes it takes years and years before a person relents to Christ. But honestly, even factoring in humanity's insane stupidity (the donut), do you really believe that if God focused on you with his love and grace, bearing upon you with the glory of Christ's sacrifice that was meant to save your soul, that you wouldn't, eventually relent?

I do have more very pointed things to say here... but alas I feel they are not appropriate for the public board.

God is simple. God is Love.

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree. Our God is immense! We will spend eternity looking into his attributes and never learn all there is about him! The very nature of the Trinity alone is enough to blow our minds apart. And love? Love is complex as well as simple! It has facets and depths, but then can just be pure and accepting. But I think the thing I need to say most here is: God is not just "love". He is also good. And holy. And just. If you don't uphold all of these things at the same time you misrepresent him and actually take away from the love that he has. He cannot be "all loving" if he is not also "all just". He cannot be "all just" if he is not also "all good". So while, yes, God IS love, and he does love us with an amazing love...he gave his Son, what is more loving than that?! He also will see justice played out. Those who will not accept his Son, will be punished. That is not something I say lightly, or joyously, or even with full understanding. But the bible teaches it, so I must stand by it faithfully.

 

[Episkopos]

He loved and choose everyone, and died for everyone.
Some folks choose to reject Him.

Or never hear about Him. Or hear a false version of Him.

 

[Naomi25]

"(a) God wants everybody saved.

(b) God could save everyone.

(c) God does not."

A- Is it not His will? 1 Timothy 2:4
“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” I would say, yes it is His will.
B- God could save everyone. Of course He could. He could do ANYTHING He wants He is all-powerful ♥
C- God does not (save everyone-my addition)." If He did, then Jesus died in vain. God is just and faithful, He does not EVER break His promises. To Himself or us. He is a God that requires a blood sacrifice for sin. He is a God who requires PERFECTION. And He is Love-He sent us Jesus Christ. We (humans) broke the world out of dis-obedience, and now He is the only one who can fix it.

It seems to me that what we have here is a problem between the verses that state that "God wants all to be saved"...as your verse above, and others like the John 3:16 that is often quoted, and then the ones that seem to say that only the "elect" will be saved.
And yeah...the bible has both, and it could be seen as a contradiction. I don't believe the bible has those, so one would have to explain it one way or the other...which is how, I suppose we get to where we are!! Personally, I don't mind the whole thing. I know some get really worked up about it. And sure, I have my opinion on what I think is correct, but I honestly can't see how fighting about it does anyone any good! I think debate on these issues can be beneficial, just because talking about it can help clarify our thoughts, beliefs and what the bible actually says. And it means that as God's people, we're honestly striving to look towards his truth. That can't be bad.

 

[Nancy]

Or never hear about Him. Or hear a false version of Him.

Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." I think that kind of covers everyone. His timing.....! And, if a seeker is sincere about seeking the True God, God will open the way, and, no false teacher will be able to deter that person. IMHO, of course

 

[Nancy]

It seems to me that what we have here is a problem between the verses that state that "God wants all to be saved"...as your verse above, and others like the John 3:16 that is often quoted, and then the ones that seem to say that only the "elect" will be saved.
And yeah...the bible has both, and it could be seen as a contradiction. I don't believe the bible has those, so one would have to explain it one way or the other...which is how, I suppose we get to where we are!! Personally, I don't mind the whole thing. I know some get really worked up about it. And sure, I have my opinion on what I think is correct, but I honestly can't see how fighting about it does anyone any good! I think debate on these issues can be beneficial, just because talking about it can help clarify our thoughts, beliefs and what the bible actually says. And it means that as God's people, we're honestly striving to look towards his truth. That can't be bad.

@Naomi25 , my above post was in agreement with you, maybe the bold letters seemed I was being disagreeing? Not at all...they were mostly for other's benefit, lol.

 

[LC627]

Is it not His will? 1 Timothy 2:4
“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” I would say, yes it is His will.

Nancy, if you're going to state this verse then you are implying that every single soul will be saved in the end since it's God's will. Which, ironically, would go against their "free will" also since they "choose" to reject Christ....

 

[LC627]

 

[Helen]

If I had a child which was so stupid that in spite of my mothering it choose to walk out in front of a bus....would I just say..”Oh well, I must allow it to have it own free choice .”
What kind of parent would I be.

I think our Father is wiser.
He doesn’t make us go against our will, He just makes us willing to go..
That’s my God.

 

[amadeus]

What is your definition of free will?

Every person is free to choose God... or not. This is the only free will we really have. It is never lost before we have finished our course.

With Adam and Eve it was a simple choice of eat [Not choosing God] or don't eat [choosing God].

Joshua expands a little but the essence of the two choices is the same:

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

 

[amadeus]

This is what happens when a person doesn't understand the gospel.

The blood/life of Jesus is a gift given so that we can walk as He walked. Just because you don't believe that or you have not experienced that...doesn't mean that others haven't.

Not everyone will be saved. Not everyone will receive praise from God. There are many variables because of US.

Many variables, but still only two choices: serve God or not.