Calvinism?

[Phoneman777]

I was with you on your rejecting "The Alpha Course," which promotes so-called Christian mysticism, but you lost me when you tossed in "all things charismatic." I see these two belief systems as stemming from different sources. I believe very strongly that Christian mysticism is based on a mixture of pantheistic pagan beliefs and Christian beliefs. However, the Charismatic Movement is based on Bible verses having to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but what I mean by "all things charismatic" is the satanic spectacle of confusion where people are rolling around "drunk" on the "spirit", or everyone in the place is babbling in "tongues" (languages) foreign to this planet, or the Benny Hinn smackdown healing silliness. Ever notice how all these charlatans on T.V. and radio who blurt out a couple of "gift of tongues phrases" while in mid-sentence always attempt to sound Hebrew? "Shabbat la Meshibasheth" or some other ridiculous sounds that are meant to impress those who don't know better.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, but what I mean by "all things charismatic" is the satanic spectacle of confusion where people are rolling around "drunk" on the "spirit", or everyone in the place is babbling in "tongues" (languages) foreign to this planet, or the Benny Hinn smackdown healing silliness. Ever notice how all these charlatans on T.V. and radio who blurt out a couple of "gift of tongues phrases" while in mid-sentence always attempt to sound Hebrew? "Shabbat la Meshibasheth" or some other ridiculous sounds that are meant to impress those who don't know better.

I just tend to ignore that stuff. I'm more interested in what the Holy Spirit is doing in and around me.

 

[Mjh29]

I'm new to this sight and a first timer and have never heard of calvinism till recently.Here are some questions i have

#1 If we humans are totally depraved the why did god say about Adam He will be like us knowing both good and evil
#2 Is it possible the all sovereign God could create us with freewill
#3 And it seems to me reading the bible, the Elect are jews that will not stumble or be blinded[the apostles and other followers]. In order to bring Gospel to the gentile to fulfill prophesy[and to write the new testament for us the world]
Note When I AM lifted up i will call all people

Excellent questions! First, I would like to welcome you to the site; it is really nice to see new faces!
Now, for the questions;

1.) What God actually said was that man would try to choose for himself what was good and evil. Man wanted to be his own God, the master of his own universe where he, not God, choose the rules of good and evil. Man was born knowing good and evil; we just wanted to be the ones to define the term rather than obey the rules God had set forth.

2.) The problem here is that many people confuse free will and free agency. Free agency is real; God allows us to operate in His universe. I woke up this morning and put on a black tee shirt. I could have chosen my red or blue one, but I felt like wearing my super comfy black shirt. This is free agency; the ability to make choices within God's universe. Free will, on the other hand, is not so real. The problem is that man is fallen; when
Adam sinned, he in a sense enslaved the wills of all his descendants to Satan. We cannot will freely because in our nature we are corrupt to at least some degree. The good news it the Jesus changes wills! His blood it the only solution so potent that it can wash straight through our sin nature and grace us with a new on that loves God! So, to summerize; we are free to make choices, but only within the confines of our fallen nature; God does not hold us back; we hold ourselves back!

3.) Here is the problem with that; not all the elect (even in the old testament times!) were Jews. The elect people are those who are a part of the church of Christ; not of a certain flesh-and-blood race. It has never been by race, always by grace. When Jesus died, he blew the boarders wide open, and now there is no more Jew or Gentile, only those whose hearts Christ changes and makes willing to bow to Him.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

The purpose of the Alpha Course -- to the best of my knowledge -- was to be introductory, elementary and very shallow, with a Charismatic slant, using the NIV of all versions.

It originated in an Anglican church where Charismatism had taken hold, and this church was the center of *holy laughter* in England.

I read parts of the curriculum. What I read was based on mysticism, also called contemplative spirituality, which I believe is a counterfeit for the gifts and power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

There is a potential danger concerning spiritual experience. But there is also a lot of unfounded fears. We do have the bible as a guide into the truth...but also the fruit. Those who can't discern the fruit are going to be swallowing lies whether they have deeper experiences or not.

My sheep know My voice....His actual voice and not just a reliable bible translation.

I believe the danger is in seeking certain kinds of experiences (esp. "ecstatic union") through contemplative practices or disciplines.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Welcome Rodney Anderson.


I am not a Calvinist, but have studied it somewhat. Of course, any Calvinists are welcome to correct this. Total Depravity doesn't really say that we don't know good from evil, but that we are not interested in pursuing good. That everything that we do is tainted by sin. Every thought, every action. Even otherwise outwardly good acts are not good because the motivation of our heart is not to bring glory to God. Neither does it mean that we are as evil as possible. I agree with this much.

The Calvinists take this so far as to say that we cannot respond (or even perceive it IIRC?) to the conviction of sin to receive Christ on our own due to the extent of our depravity. We're that dead and depraved. I believe that we can, and must, respond to the drawing of the Holy Spirit in order to believe Jesus was crucified in our place, died, and rose from the dead. God convicts us of this and even gives us the faith to believe, but we can resist and refuse this or accept it. To the Calvinist, this free will choice is not available and God must do the choosing for us. He 'elects' us. Or not!

Of course this then places the fault of people not choosing God on God as He supposedly chooses them from before their birth for Hell. They are predestined and have no choice in the matter. But then this gets into other points of Calvinism.


I agree with CoreIssue that God not only can, but did, create us with free will. This seems to ruffle the feathers of the Calvinist because it is seen as an affront to God's Sovereignty. I do not have the same trouble reconciling the two. Man's Free Will versus God's Sovereignty.

I look at it this way. There is a father who is omniscient and omnipotent. He chooses from his own free will to bestow the marvelous gift of free will to his child. Even those who are not his children are given this gift due to the Father's generous and gracious nature. We all were not his child at some point. Tells the child that they can drive his car to the shopping mall. Then go see a movie and then drop off their friend, but must come straight home. And not go anywhere other than those places. Not to exceed the speed limit. Etc. (The Law)

Now since this powerful father can constantly monitor the child (even their thoughts and intent) and can recall the child and vehicle home at any instant, he has truly never surrendered his sovereignty. If the child strays from the instructions then the Father continues to have the sovereign choice of whether or not to recall the vehicle and child home or let them continue on making their own free will choices. With consequences.

This is not to say that He does not guide and lead them using GPS/text messages, er... the Holy Spirit's unction and leadings. If they are wandering off course, He gently lovingly attempts to steer them back on course. Since Free Will is His sovereign choice for them then anything beyond this would actually violate that. Except when He chooses to override the situation in order to bring about his sovereign choice in the matter. He never forfeits such veto power or sovereignty.

Given today's technology, this is almost possible to an ordinary earthly father. Its always been possible with the Sovereign King of the Universe over His creation. In other words, its God's Sovereign choice to give the freedom (free will) to his children and to watch what they do with it. (Not that He doesn't already know what choices will be made!) Able to intervene at any instant. In complete control. Never surrendering His sovereignty for one instant. Thus Man's (the child) Free Will and God's (the Father) Sovereignty can operate simultaneously without conflict.

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” (Deuteronomy 30:19)

In no way did the child participate in the arrangement of the event depicted above except that when the Father offered the car to go to the mall, the child said "yes". No 'works', no earning the privilege. It was a gift. And without giving the child the ignition key (faith) this would not be possible.



In short, I believe that the Elect are all those who do believe and receive God's gracious and merciful offering. The Calvinists tend to tell me that it is an even more gracious and wonderful act that God does the choosing for us. I see that point.

However, this is viewing it from man's perspective IMO. How might God feel if he gave no choice to the child, but the vehicle drove itself to the mall, the movies and then to the friend's and then home. All on a schedule like a train or a plane. How might he feel if he gives the child free will and the child goes nuts and races around, has accidents and disobeys his instructions? Ah... but how might he feel if the child could do all that, but does not because he loves his father, wants to please him and show thankfulness for the free will extended to him.

"Free Will... its God's sovereign plan."

Oh, my, what happened to your avatar? The blueberries took over! LOL

I agree with your explanation. I've never had a problem believing as you said that God doesn't give up His sovereignty in order to give us free will. It's one of them dang dichotomies--the 2-sided coins that most people don't like. (I addressed these many times in this thread....)

Of course, as with any analogy, yours breaks down at one point. Since God is not our father until we are born of His Spirit, that's a problem, but all in all, I think the analogy works well.

 

[Blueberry]

Oh, my, what happened to your avatar? The blueberries took over! LOL

I don't know. Meant to flood the helmet with blueberries and then reinsert my mug. But decided that maybe they were a reflection from landing on Blueberry Planet.

I agree with your explanation. I've never had a problem believing as you said that God doesn't give up His sovereignty in order to give us free will. It's one of them dang dichotomies--the 2-sided coins that most people don't like. (I addressed these many times in this thread....)

I actually tried to follow this advice myself, but after 4 or 5 pages of really nothing but the sub-debates that most threads degenerate into, I thought Rodney Anderson might grow weary of that as well.

Tried to simply and honestly represent the issue as I understood it. Avoiding the usual biases. I am about presenting Truth as I understand it. Knowing that there will always be more to learn until this present life is over. I appreciate the feedback that I seemed to have accomplished this for the most part.

Of course, as with any analogy, yours breaks down at one point. Since God is not our father until we are born of His Spirit, that's a problem, but all in all, I think the analogy works well.

Where does my analogy break down?

God is sovereign over the unbelievers too, right?

 

[Enoch111]

#1 If we humans are totally depraved the why did god say about Adam He will be like us knowing both good and evil

Welcome Rodney. That statement had nothing to do with total depravity. Since Adam and Eve had sinned, they would be barred from the tree of life. *Knowing good and evil* would mean knowing the difference between obedience and disobedience, and sinning regardless (as is true for humans).

#2 Is it possible the all sovereign God could create us with freewill

Not only is is possible, but that is exactly what God did.

#3 And it seems to me reading the bible, the Elect are jews...

True. While it was redeemed Jews who first spread the Gospel, now it is primarily Gentiles.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I don't know. Meant to flood the helmet with blueberries and then reinsert my mug. But decided that maybe they were a reflection from landing on Blueberry Planet.



I actually tried to follow this advice myself, but after 4 or 5 pages of really nothing but the sub-debates that most threads degenerate into, I thought Rodney Anderson might grow weary of that as well.

Tried to simply and honestly represent the issue as I understood it. Avoiding the usual biases. I am about presenting Truth as I understand it. Knowing that there will always be more to learn until this present life is over. I appreciate the feedback that I seemed to have accomplished this for the most part.



Where does my analogy break down?

God is sovereign over the unbelievers too, right?

Yes, I do believe that God is sovereign over unbelievers, but He doesn't control a nonbeliever's life like He does a believer's as we submit to Him, but now that I think about it, maybe that's not a legitimate criticism. So, never mind! I can think more clearly in the mornings than I can at night, esp. when I only get 5 or 6 hours of sleep.

 

[CoreIssue]

Yes, I do believe that God is sovereign over unbelievers, but He doesn't control a nonbeliever's life like He does a believer's as we submit to Him, but now that I think about it, maybe that's not a legitimate criticism. So, never mind! I can think more clearly in the mornings than I can at night.

All I can say is the Bible makes it clear God appoints leaders. That includes Hitler, Mussolini and Obama, in example. That he also sent pagan nations to conquer and punish Israel, then destroyed them.

God gave everyone free will. The extent he controls anyone is up to him.

So this issue has no easy answer except he will do as he sees fit.

 

[Blueberry]

1.) What God actually said was that man would try to choose for himself what was good and evil. Man wanted to be his own God, the master of his own universe where he, not God, choose the rules of good and evil. Man was born knowing good and evil; we just wanted to be the ones to define the term rather than obey the rules God had set forth.

Are you saying that Man received no new knowledge from eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

Why then did not Man's innate knowledge of good and evil not reveal to him that he was naked?

2.) The problem here is that many people confuse free will and free agency. Free agency is real; God allows us to operate in His universe. I woke up this morning and put on a black tee shirt. I could have chosen my red or blue one, but I felt like wearing my super comfy black shirt. This is free agency; the ability to make choices within God's universe. Free will, on the other hand, is not so real. The problem is that man is fallen; when
Adam sinned, he in a sense enslaved the wills of all his descendants to Satan. We cannot will freely because in our nature we are corrupt to at least some degree. The good news it the Jesus changes wills! His blood it the only solution so potent that it can wash straight through our sin nature and grace us with a new on that loves God! So, to summerize; we are free to make choices, but only within the confines of our fallen nature; God does not hold us back; we hold ourselves back!

So free agency = limited free will? Able to make choices in all matters except believing in God?

Did Adam have genuine Free Will prior to eating the forbidden fruit?

If our fallen nature is totally depraved then we cannot really help holding ourselves back. Or do we have 'Free Agency' in regards to that? In order to be able to hold ourselves back. Since we cannot choose otherwise in our Total Depravity, how do we "hold ourselves back"?

So the portion of our Free Will that was forfeited by Adam did not revert to God, but to Satan? Satan, in effect, has the sovereignty over us and not God?

 

[Blueberry]

Yes, I do believe that God is sovereign over unbelievers, but He doesn't control a nonbeliever's life like He does a believer's as we submit to Him, but now that I think about it, maybe that's not a legitimate criticism. So, never mind! I can think more clearly in the mornings than I can at night.

Take your time. I really only meant to try to summarize my understanding of Calvinism so that Rodney Anderson did not have to dig back through all the previous posts. But the responses intrigued me so I ended up having some questions of my own. Never intended to get into this at any level. These threads have a way of drawing one into them! :)

The thing is that I reconnected with an old friend many years ago. He had become a Christian and also believes that I am one too. He reconnected with a church that he was raised in, but he was a rebellious youth and never came to faith back then. That independent Baptist church is now lead by a Calvinist preacher. I never understood why he was not content that I also believed, but it was so important to him that he get me convinced of this doctrine? If I am one of the Elect then what difference if I am ignorant of it? I really had no ultimate choice in the matter. And if I am not, then why torture me with the horridly impossible? As there is no remedy for my fallen and un-Elected state.

FWIW, I do appreciate your approach to all of this.

While I do not necessarily agree, I would think that the difference God would have in the Sovereignty/Free Will/Free Agency dynamic is that perhaps much more micromanagement is needed in order to perform the Preservation of the Saint in that individual's life than in a non-believer. As they might as well be animals following only their depraved lusts and desires. Why bother? All the more with which to later judge them. Not meaning to put words in your mouth.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Take your time. I really only meant to try to summarize my understanding of Calvinism so that Rodney Anderson did not have to dig back through all the previous posts. But the responses intrigued me so I ended up having some questions of my own. Never intended to get into this at any level. These threads have a way of drawing one into them! :)

The thing is that I reconnected with an old friend many years ago. He had become a Christian and also believes that I am one too. He reconnected with a church that he was raised in, but he was a rebellious youth and never came to faith back then. That independent Baptist church is now lead by a Calvinist preacher. I never understood why he was not content that I also believed, but it was so important to him that he get me convinced of this doctrine? If I am one of the Elect then what difference if I am ignorant of it? I really had no ultimate choice in the matter. And if I am not, then why torture me with the horridly impossible? As there is no remedy for my fallen and un-Elected state.

FWIW, I do appreciate your approach to all of this.

While I do not necessarily agree, I would think that the difference God would have in the Sovereignty/Free Will/Free Agency dynamic is that perhaps much more micromanagement is needed in order to perform the Preservation of the Saint in that individual's life than in a non-believer. As they might as well be animals following only their depraved lusts and desires. Why bother? All the more with which to later judge them. Not meaning to put words in your mouth.

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is that I haven't been getting enough sleep, so I'm not even making sense to myself. :) I'll feel a lot better in the morning if I sleep tonight....

The thing about not intending to get into the debate is that sometimes the debate has a way of pulling us into it. I was reading through this thread when it first started not intending to comment until I saw something that dragged me in kicking and screaming. A couple of the Calvinists and I got into it, and the rest is history.

I was introduced to Calvinism years ago after joining a Presbyterian church (PCA). Coming from a Baptist background, I was shocked when I learned about Calvin's concept of Limited Atonement. I had always been taught and believed that the "whosoever" in John 3:16 means anyone, and that's what I believe to this day. My pastor, Charlie (who was a great guy) and I had many an intense discussion about this, but we always parted friends. Unfortunately, one of the diehard Calvinist elders made sure that Charlie went away because he wasn't Calvinist enough....

If you do stay in this debate, just know that things can get ugly, so if you're up for that, so be it. Right now, I'm going through some stuff, so I'm really not up to any kind of intense debate in which Christian siblings gouge each others' eyes out. :) However, I would be interested to know more about what you believe on the subject if you care to share.

 

[Phoneman777]

I just tend to ignore that stuff. I'm more interested in what the Holy Spirit is doing in and around me.

How do you know it's the Holy Spirit doing it?

 

[Blueberry]

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is that I haven't been getting enough sleep, so I'm not even making sense to myself. :) I'll feel a lot better in the morning if I sleep tonight....

The thing about not intending to get into the debate is that sometimes the debate has a way of pulling us into it. I was reading through this thread when it first started not intending to comment until I saw something that dragged me in kicking and screaming. A couple of the Calvinists and I got into it, and the rest is history.

I was introduced to Calvinism years ago after joining a Presbyterian church (PCA). Coming from a Baptist background, I was shocked when I learned about Calvin's concept of Limited Atonement. I had always been taught and believed that the "whosoever" in John 3:16 meant anyone, and that's what I believe to this day. My pastor, Charlie (who was a great guy) and I had many an intense discussion about this, but we always parted friends. Unfortunately, one of the diehard Calvinist elders made sure that Charlie went away because he wasn't Calvinist enough....

If you do stay in this debate, just know that things can get ugly, so if you're up for that, so be it. Right now, I'm going through some stuff, so I'm really not up to any kind of intense debate in which Christian siblings gouge each others' eyes out. :) However, I would be interested to know more about what you believe on the subject if you care to share.

Yes... with fear and trembling. I am going through some stuff too. I may be dying.

I was under the impression you are a Calvinist. Only a 4 pointer? Still at that church?

I agree about the Limited Atonement not being limited. I half agree with Total Depravity, which is probably not agreeing with it at all. As far as Perseverance, I believe in once saved, always saved... IF saved. Unconditional Election is completely incompatible with my understanding of Free Will. Irresistible Grace seems like a necessary mechanism for Unconditional Election and I do not draw a great distinction between the two.

Christ died for all knowing that God's sovereign choice to bestow free will to Man means some will not accept it. If all these other exercises of free agency do not violate His Sovereignty, why would that?

I don't believe God predestinates millions of babies to be aborted.

This does have a 'rope a dope' feel to it though. Not answering questions about statements made, but instead wanting other statements so that they can be picked apart.

Like I said, I was just trying to help out the newbie.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Yes... with fear and trembling. I am going through some stuff too. I may be dying.

I was under the impression you are a Calvinist. Only a 4 pointer? Still at that church?

I agree about the Limited Atonement not being limited. I half agree with Total Depravity, which is probably not agreeing with it at all. As far as Perseverance, I believe in once saved, always saved... IF saved. Unconditional Election is completely incompatible with my understanding of Free Will. Irresistible Grace seems like a necessary mechanism for Unconditional Election and I do not draw a great distinction between the two.

Christ died for all knowing that God's sovereign choice to bestow free will to Man means some will not accept it. If all these other exercises of free agency do not violate His Sovereignty, why would that?

I don't believe God predestinates millions of babies to be aborted.

This does have a 'rope a dope' feel to it though. Not answering questions about statements made, but instead wanting other statements so that they can be picked apart.

Like I said, I was just trying to help out the newbie.

To answer your question, I left that church may years ago, and I've never been a Calvinist. Like you, I do believe in once saved, always saved, IF saved, but I think there's more to it than that. I can't explain what I mean by that, at least not tonight when my brain is tired. :)

And as for your ailment, I pray that you will know the healing touch of Jesus! Amen!
.

 

[Blueberry]

To answer your question, I left that church may years ago, and I've never been a Calvinist. Like you, I do believe in once saved, always saved, IF saved, but I think there's more to it than that. I can't explain what I mean by that, at least not tonight when my brain is tired. :)

And as for your ailment, I pray that you will know the healing touch of Jesus! Amen!
.

Thank you for your prayers. Same to you.

Just finished scrolling through the whole thread. Saw where you mentioned coming in here for fellowship and not debate. Same here. Where do we do that? We can put the same energy into establishing (if need be) and nurturing that. Sorely needed IMO.

Are we in the wrong thread?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

How do you know it's the Holy Spirit doing it?

That's a good question. Now, let me see if I can figure out an answer. :) Seriously, the Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit as an inner witness that I've learned to identify as being God's Spirit. I know that sounds very circular, but I can't think of a better way to explain it. Like I said to someone else, if I actually get some decent sleep tonight, I'll probably be able to give a better answer, but I'll be thinking on it.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Thank you for your prayers. Same to you.

Just finished scrolling through the whole thread. Saw where you mentioned coming in here for fellowship and not debate. Same here. Where do we do that? We can put the same energy into establishing (if need be) and nurturing that. Sorely needed IMO.

Are we in the wrong thread?

AMEN TO THAT! I still need fellowship, and I have gotten some on this forum, so it is possible. Maybe a new thread in one of the forums like the fellowship forum is the answer. I'll look at all the forums and see what would be a good one for some good old-fashioned fellowship and let you know.

 

[Blueberry]

AMEN TO THAT! I still need fellowship, and I have gotten some on this forum, so it is possible. Maybe a new thread in one of the forums like the fellowship forum is the answer. I'll look at all the forums and see what would be a good one for some good old-fashioned fellowship and let you know.

Thank you. Was scrolling through the "God's Simple Blessings" (animals) thread there when this came in. My biggest challenge would be thinking up subjects. I think that I found it. Already did the Lipstick thread. Though that does seem to be the place.