Calvinism?

[Prayer Warrior]

Was that sarcasm..... Humor?

You sure could not be serious.

Yup, totally serious. If you have issues with what he said, maybe you can kindly discuss them.

 

[CoreIssue]

Yup, totally serious. If you have issues with what he said, maybe you can kindly discuss them.

I have no issue. I answered his questions.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

An encounter through reading His word, right? Because Satan is a master of deception and "experiential religion" is his most powerful weapon in his Luciferian arsenal.

You may not know this, but Luther and Loyola were contemporary Catholics, both seeking desperately to be accepted of God by some sign from above. Eventually, Luther's faith fell completely upon the promises of Scripture, while Loyola finally got his "signs from above" (which were actually from Satan). His "Spiritual Exercises of Loyola" were just washed down versions of the same old ancient occult worship, yet not only has it permeated Catholicism, but has infected Protestantism with things like "the Alpha Course", the "Ecumenical Movement", "Toronto Blessing", and all things charasmatic, while faith in Biblical truth and promises is marginalized.

I was with you on your rejecting "The Alpha Course," which promotes so-called Christian mysticism, but you lost me when you tossed in "all things charismatic." I see these two belief systems as stemming from different sources. I believe very strongly that Christian mysticism is based on a mixture of pantheistic pagan beliefs and Christian beliefs. However, the Charismatic Movement is based on Bible verses having to do with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I have no issue. I answered his questions.

You did? All I saw was an emoji.

 

[farouk]

I was with you on "The Alpha Course," which promotes so-called Christian mysticism, but you lost me when you tossed in "all things charismatic." I see these two belief systems as stemming from different sources. I believe very strongly that Christian mysticism is based on a mixture of pantheistic pagan beliefs and Christian beliefs. However, the Charismatic Movement is based on Bible verses having to do with the gifts of the Spirit.

I didn't think much of the Alpha Course. The point is that we have the completed Scriptures already, so we don't need more revelations or mystical experiences.

 

[CoreIssue]

You did? All I saw was an emoji.

Which means you commented without reading.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I didn't think much of the Alpha Course. The point is that we have the completed Scriptures already, so we don't need more revelations or mystical experiences.

I agree. From what I read years ago, some churches were using it.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Which means you commented without reading.

No, actually, I never saw it. The forum seems to be messing up.

Edit: I went back and looked at your posts. You tucked your answers in with his questions, so I missed them. SORRY!!!!!

 

[farouk]

I agree. From what I read years ago, some churches were using it.

A lot of churches used it, but whether it helped them enhance their doctrinal distinctiveness and witness, or instead diluted it, is another matter.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

A lot of churches used it, but whether it helped them enhance their doctrinal distinctiveness and witness, or instead diluted it, is another matter.

I agree! It didn't help them at all!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

A lot of churches used it, but whether it helped them enhance their doctrinal distinctiveness and witness, or instead diluted it, is another matter.

Sorry if I was sounding short with you. I was feeling frustrated with someone else, not you!

 

[CoreIssue]

No, actually, I never saw it. The forum seems to be messing up.

Edit: I went back and looked at your posts. You tucked your answers in with his questions, so I missed them. SORRY!!!!!

I responded to each of the questions separately. I I make my answers bold and Italics to make sure they don't just run together with what I am answering and to make it clear what I am answering.

It is an old technique used by many in some form.

So OK and moving on.

 

[farouk]

Sorry if I was sounding short with you. I was feeling frustrated with someone else, not you!

I didn't notice...

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I didn't notice...

You're not very perceptive, are you?

 

[Helen]

Hey @CoreIssue
We are missing your posts!!

Go back up and look at your post number 457

Like I said the other day...sadly it is often next to impossible for us readers to tell what is the quote , and what is your response to the quote!

You response gets lost in with the other persons quote.
Many of your responses cannot be read clearly.

 

[Enoch111]

A lot of churches used it, but whether it helped them enhance their doctrinal distinctiveness and witness, or instead diluted it, is another matter.

The purpose of the Alpha Course -- to the best of my knowledge -- was to be introductory, elementary and very shallow, with a Charismatic slant, using the NIV of all versions.

It originated in an Anglican church where Charismatism had taken hold, and this church was the center of *holy laughter* in England.

 

[Episkopos]

An encounter through reading His word, right? Because Satan is a master of deception and "experiential religion" is his most powerful weapon in his Luciferian arsenal.

You may not know this, but Luther and Loyola were contemporary Catholics, both seeking desperately to be accepted of God by some sign from above. Eventually, Luther's faith fell completely upon the promises of Scripture, while Loyola finally got his "signs from above" (which were actually from Satan). His "Spiritual Exercises of Loyola" were just washed down versions of the same old ancient occult worship, yet not only has it permeated Catholicism, but has infected Protestantism with things like "the Alpha Course", the "Ecumenical Movement", "Toronto Blessing", and all things charasmatic, while faith in Biblical truth and promises is marginalized.

There is a potential danger concerning spiritual experience. But there is also a lot of unfounded fears. We do have the bible as a guide into the truth...but also the fruit. Those who can't discern the fruit are going to be swallowing lies whether they have deeper experiences or not.

My sheep know My voice....His actual voice and not just a reliable bible translation.

 

[farouk]

The purpose of the Alpha Course -- to the best of my knowledge -- was to be introductory, elementary and very shallow, with a Charismatic slant, using the NIV of all versions.

It originated in an Anglican church where Charismatism had taken hold, and this church was the center of *holy laughter* in England.

Oh yes, now I remember...

 

[Blueberry]

I'm new to this sight and a first timer and have never heard of calvinism till recently.Here are some questions i have

Welcome Rodney Anderson.

#1 If we humans are totally depraved the why did god say about Adam He will be like us knowing both good and evil

I am not a Calvinist, but have studied it somewhat. Of course, any Calvinists are welcome to correct this. Total Depravity doesn't really say that we don't know good from evil, but that we are not interested in pursuing good. That everything that we do is tainted by sin. Every thought, every action. Even otherwise outwardly good acts are not good because the motivation of our heart is not to bring glory to God. Neither does it mean that we are as evil as possible. I agree with this much.

The Calvinists take this so far as to say that we cannot respond (or even perceive it IIRC?) to the conviction of sin to receive Christ on our own due to the extent of our depravity. We're that dead and depraved. I believe that we can, and must, respond to the drawing of the Holy Spirit in order to believe Jesus was crucified in our place, died, and rose from the dead. God convicts us of this and even gives us the faith to believe, but we can resist and refuse this or accept it. To the Calvinist, this free will choice is not available and God must do the choosing for us. He 'elects' us. Or not!

Of course this then places the fault of people not choosing God on God as He supposedly chooses them from before their birth for Hell. They are predestined and have no choice in the matter. But then this gets into other points of Calvinism.

#2 Is it possible the all sovereign God could create us with freewill

I agree with CoreIssue that God not only can, but did, create us with free will. This seems to ruffle the feathers of the Calvinist because it is seen as an affront to God's Sovereignty. I do not have the same trouble reconciling the two. Man's Free Will versus God's Sovereignty.

I look at it this way. There is a father who is omniscient and omnipotent. He chooses from his own free will to bestow the marvelous gift of free will to his child. Even those who are not his children are given this gift due to the Father's generous and gracious nature. We all were not his child at some point. Tells the child that they can drive his car to the shopping mall. Then go see a movie and then drop off their friend, but must come straight home. And not go anywhere other than those places. Not to exceed the speed limit. Etc. (The Law)

Now since this powerful father can constantly monitor the child (even their thoughts and intent) and can recall the child and vehicle home at any instant, he has truly never surrendered his sovereignty. If the child strays from the instructions then the Father continues to have the sovereign choice of whether or not to recall the vehicle and child home or let them continue on making their own free will choices. With consequences.

This is not to say that He does not guide and lead them using GPS/text messages, er... the Holy Spirit's unction and leadings. If they are wandering off course, He gently lovingly attempts to steer them back on course. Since Free Will is His sovereign choice for them then anything beyond this would actually violate that. Except when He chooses to override the situation in order to bring about his sovereign choice in the matter. He never forfeits such veto power or sovereignty.

Given today's technology, this is almost possible to an ordinary earthly father. Its always been possible with the Sovereign King of the Universe over His creation. In other words, its God's Sovereign choice to give the freedom (free will) to his children and to watch what they do with it. (Not that He doesn't already know what choices will be made!) Able to intervene at any instant. In complete control. Never surrendering His sovereignty for one instant. Thus Man's (the child) Free Will and God's (the Father) Sovereignty can operate simultaneously without conflict.

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” (Deuteronomy 30:19)

In no way did the child participate in the arrangement of the event depicted above except that when the Father offered the car to go to the mall, the child said "yes". No 'works', no earning the privilege. It was a gift. And without giving the child the ignition key (faith) this would not be possible.

#3 And it seems to me reading the bible, the Elect are jews that will not stumble or be blinded[the apostles and other followers]. In order to bring Gospel to the gentile to fulfill prophesy[and to write the new testament for us the world]
Note When I AM lifted up i will call all people

In short, I believe that the Elect are all those who do believe and receive God's gracious and merciful offering. The Calvinists tend to tell me that it is an even more gracious and wonderful act that God does the choosing for us. I see that point.

However, this is viewing it from man's perspective IMO. How might God feel if he gave no choice to the child, but the vehicle drove itself to the mall, the movies and then to the friend's and then home. All on a schedule like a train or a plane. How might he feel if he gives the child free will and the child goes nuts and races around, has accidents and disobeys his instructions? Ah... but how might he feel if the child could do all that, but does not because he loves his father, wants to please him and show thankfulness for the free will extended to him.

"Free Will... its God's sovereign plan."

 

[Taken]

I'm new to this sight and a first timer and have never heard of calvinism till recently.Here are some questions i have

Welcome to the forum.

I had heard of calvinism, but am not much for nametags, so what all any one "group" does or does not believe, I would presume has a mix of truth and lie.

#1 If we humans are totally depraved the why did god say about Adam He will be like us knowing both good and evil

Humans are not totally depraved.
God Himself Knows what is Good and what is Evil.

Humans from a very young age, as a toddler, can learn the basic YES this is okay, and NO that is not okay.
They do not "Understand" WHY. The WHY becomes Understood later.

It is the same for a person MATURING in the Word of God.
Early men were given "RULES", the rules became written as "LAWS"....and the consequences for obedience or disobedience became the FACTOR, for IF a person was willing to follow the LAWS or not.

As a person MATURES, they begin to understand, the RESULTS of Obedience, Results in a GOOD outcome for them and the RESULTS of Disobedience Results in a BAD outcome for them.

However NOTHING, forces People to Obey.
It is a learning curve, for People to individually Decide what Outcome they want for themselves.

#2 Is it possible the all sovereign God could create us with freewill

Adam and Eve were created with Freewill, which is to say, They could CHOOSE to DO whatever they wanted....and did.

God said Do not look at, or eat from a particular tree. Eve looked, Eve took, Eve ate, Eve gave to Adam, Adam looked at the fruit, Adam ate.....They exercised their free will. Thereafter, they instinctively KNEW, things that were Good and things that were Evil.

It is the natural Flesh Body, with its Carnal Mind, that makes the decisions of Freewill, to Obey what is Good (Gods Word), or to Obey what their Carnal Mind finds Tempting to Try.

And WHY, Scripture expressly reveals;
the Carnal Mind is AGAINST God.

#3 And it seems to me reading the bible, the Elect are jews

Following the Line of Gods creation of mankind, from Adam who disobeyed, to many who disobeyed...we find some In obedience...
Descending down to Noah who was obedient, and him and his sons being Saved, when the rest of the worlds population was destroyed by Water.
From out of Noah's 3 sons descendants we find, a distinct division appearing...

From one son...descendants, who become the most favorable in obedience to God, becoming called the Hebrews/ then Jews, WHO, will accept Gods Word and Messiah, but not that it is Jesus.

From another son...descendants, who become a lesser favorable...descendants, who become the Gentiles, Who will later, learn of God and His Messiah, and accept Both as their Savior, God of the Jews AND His Messiah IS Christ, called Jesus.

From another son...descendants, who also become the known as Gentiles, who believe in A God, and His prophet, an earthly man, and are obedient to their prophets Word.

Each Group, can absolutely associate themselves with the religious aspect of the group.....and Still individually have Freewill, to choose to do as their individual Carnal Mind leads them.

that will not stumble or be blinded

Many were blinded, by following after their own Carnal Mind.

In order to bring Gospel to the gentile to fulfill prophesy and to write the new testament for us the world]

Association with a GROUP, does not STOP a persons Carnal Minded Freewill Choices TO obey or not obey.

Not ALL individuals of each "GROUP" OBEY or DISOBEY.

It is the Descending Linage from Adam forward to some Hebrews, to some Jews there can be found A DIRECT descendentship, of a FEW,
Who Obeyed Gods Word....faultered...and settle on being Obedient to Gods Word.

From Adam, to Noah's one son, some descendants, to some Hebrews, particularly Abraham, to the tribe of particulars in Judah, (being called the Jews), to Jesus, to most of His disciples, to Jesus' Jewish Apostles, to Paul (descended from a Jew and Gentile), who was an Appointed Apostle to the mainly the Gentiles, and the Gentiles who come to hear, believe, and accept thee One Heavenly God and His Christ Messiah is Jesus.

In that respect...The ELECT, are the Called, the Chosen to KEEP Gods Word being IN the World, and, Spread throughout the World.

It all LANDS on Individual Choices. And the individuals Choices, ALL LANDS on what an INDIVIDUAL comes to BELIEVE and SPREAD about the World. And every new generation of people being born, grow, hear, learn, and individually CHOOSE, what they freely elect to Believe.

A note about FREEWILL.
IF .... "IF" a man, any man, Freely Chooses to GIVE their LIFE TO THE CONTROL of Christ Lord Jesus... It is giving HIM CONTROL over a mans SPIRITUAL LIFE, of the mans COMPLETE being.... "spiritually"...
Body
Soul
Spirit

The WHOLE of the man, body, soul, spirit REPENTS.

The WHOLE of the man, body, soul, spirit
IS FORGIVEN.

The body, becomes SPIRITUALLY DEAD IN Christ.
The soul, becomes SPIRITUALLY RESTORED IN Christ.
The spirit of man (from a mans Seed) becomes SPIRITUALLY REBORN from Gods SEED.

The Spirit of God Himself, comes and Dwells WITHIN the man. (Which IS Gods POWER)

With this Spiritual Change within such a man; the MAN has FREELY GIVEN God PERMISSION TO KEEP that man FOREVER FAITHFUL TO THE WHOLE OF GOD... body, soul, spirit.
ie Son, Father, Power, ie Lord God Almighty.

Does the man STILL have freewill, of his Carnal Mind to make DUMB choices? Yes.

Will that man EVER be able to AGAIN NOT BELIEVE or BE FAITHFUL TO THEE:
Lord God Almighty ? No.

Will that man have to face worldly "consequences" for making dumb decisions from his Carnal Mind? Yes.

Will that man find HOW TO overcome making "DUMB" decisions from his Carnal Mind....IF....."IF" that man Continues Reading and Learning the Word of God? Yes.

HOW SO?
By following all the Jewish Laws? No.
By following all of Gods Statutes and Commandments? (Yes & No).
(Meaning men FAIL to Follow WORDS, Gods Spirit within a man is the POWER that enables a man to be obedient to Gods Statutes and Commandments).
By Learning, Gods Precepts? Yes.

Precepts are BEHAVIORS, "between men".
A man having given Spiritual control of "his life" to the Lord God....is a man WHO is "spiritually" complete and Acceptable to God.

However the man IS STILL living on this earth, WITH All KINDS of other men...
"Spiritually broken" and "Spiritually Whole".

It is BY and through a man LEARNING Gods Precepts, of Favorable BEHAVIORS "Between Men".....that nets a man PEACE "between men"....friends and enemies, in a world full of Corruption and Chaos.... to the extent possible.

It is a Method, that fosters a man learning HOW TO, act with his "new spirit" and the "love of God", instead of his own "instinctual and deceptive Carnal Mind".

The World teaches, Mind over Matter.
God teaches, the Spirit over the Carnal Mind.
Resulting in the man having a MIND LIKE Christ.

Note When I AM lifted up i will call all people

Calling was and is "THE Word of God...ie Jesus' Action.
Answering the CALL, requires individual mens Action.

God Bless,
Taken