Calvinism

[Preacher4Truth]

The confusion is the interpretation. How do we work?

No confusion at all. You need to see it right there in the text. The "how" is expressed concisely, and I want you to see it. And, for the record, I've offered no interpretation, just a text.

 

[Mjh29]

Here is what I feel is the beginning of our difference. How are we to "work" towards holiness?

Well, I personally think that this is something that we cannot do in and of ourselves; it has to be brought about by the Holy Spirit. I believe that while yes, we do still sin, the Spirit works in us to weed out our sins little by little, conforming us to the image of Christ.

 

[CharismaticLady]

No confusion at all. You need to see it right there in the text. The "how" is expressed concisely, and I want you to see it. And, for the record, I've offered no interpretation, just a text.

The text Preacher4Truth provided"

12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Well, I personally think that this is something that we cannot do in and of ourselves; it has to be brought about by the Holy Spirit. I believe that while yes, we do still sin, the Spirit works in us to weed out our sins little by little, conforming us to the image of Christ.

And the original posters conclusion of Romans 4:6 which is what we are discussing:

He said: Our transgressions are forgiven and our sins are covered. God does not input sin. However much sin abounds in us, Grace does much more abound. Therefore, it text is Romans 4:6

So I need more information from P4T: Your scripture says WE need to work, but it is God that is working. Explain.

And M29: You are correct that it is the Holy Spirit, but why do we still sin. @Preacher4Truth you may answer this question also. Thanks.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

The text Preacher4Truth provided"

12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.



And the original posters conclusion of Romans 4:6 which is what we are discussing:

He said: Our transgressions are forgiven and our sins are covered. God does not input sin. However much sin abounds in us, Grace does much more abound. Therefore, it text is Romans 4:6

So I need more information from P4T: Your scripture says WE need to work, but it is God that is working. Explain.

And M29: You are correct that it is the Holy Spirit, but why do we still sin. @Preacher4Truth you may answer this question also. Thanks.

It's right there IN the text. See it. Pray to see it.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It's right there IN the text. See it. Pray to see it.

You can either stay in this total disclosure sytematic unveiling of our differences, or just let Mjh29 and I continue. Your choice. There is not going to be any contempt, such as you telling me to pray to see it your way.

 

[Mjh29]

The text Preacher4Truth provided"

12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.



And the original posters conclusion of Romans 4:6 which is what we are discussing:

He said: Our transgressions are forgiven and our sins are covered. God does not input sin. However much sin abounds in us, Grace does much more abound. Therefore, it text is Romans 4:6

So I need more information from P4T: Your scripture says WE need to work, but it is God that is working. Explain.

And M29: You are correct that it is the Holy Spirit, but why do we still sin. @Preacher4Truth you may answer this question also. Thanks.

We still sin because we are still sinners. I guess you could say that it is what Paul referred to as the "inward man" in Romans 7.
I know that we believe different thing about Romans 7, but elsewhere it is evident that even saved men sin.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

You can either stay in this total disclosure sytematic unveiling of our differences, or just let Mjh29 and I continue. Your choice. There is not going to be any contempt, such as you telling me to pray. If you don't know the answer to teach it, then you must do the praying.

If telling you to pray over the text and what it says angers you and seems contemptuous, well, that's on you sister, not on me.

I know the answer and I want you to see it. I've chosen not to tell you. Again, it is right there in the text.

Your above post is a tad out of line. I've never met a believer who became offended over asking them to pray over a text, and yes, you are offended I asked you to pray over it. That's frankly troubling to be honest. Why not just do as suggested and ask God to show it you in the text instead of being offended?

 

[CharismaticLady]

We still sin because we are still sinners. I guess you could say that it is what Paul referred to as the "inward man" in Romans 7.
I know that we believe different thing about Romans 7, but elsewhere it is evident that even saved men sin.

Yes, this is the crux of our differences. Sin.

What we agree on is that Jesus died for our sin.

However, you didn't tell me HOW we are to "work" to overcome sin from your last post. After you answer that I think I'll be able to continue.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If telling you to pray over the text and what it says angers you and seems contemptuous, well, that's on you sister, not on me.

I know the answer and I want you to see it. I've chosen not to tell you. Again, it is right there in the text.

Your above post is a tad out of line. I've never met a believer who became offended over asking them to pray over a text, and yes, you are offended I asked you to pray over it. That's frankly troubling to be honest. Why not just do as suggested and ask God to show it you in the text instead of being offended?

Thank you for leaving the conversation.

 

[Mjh29]

Yes, this is the crux of our differences. Sin.

What we agree on is that Jesus died for our sin.

However, you didn't tell me HOW we are to "work" to overcome sin from your last post. After you answer that I think I'll be able to continue.

If you could explain what you mean by this?

For me, the "how" is by the power of the Holy Spirit changing our lives; slowly chipping away at our sin nature and, through things like Bible Study and listening to our pastors and trying our best to live the way Christ did, we become more and more like Him.

 

[CharismaticLady]

If you could explain what you mean by this?

For me, the "how" is by the power of the Holy Spirit changing our lives; slowly chipping away at our sin nature and, through things like Bible Study and listening to our pastors and trying our best to live the way Christ did, we become more and more like Him.

We almost agree. Here is what I see in Romans 4 that the OP (original (Calvinist) poster) failed to see when he implied that all our sins we still commit are not imputed to us. I don't see you going that far.

Romans 4:9b-10 says
For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised

What is our circumcision?

So we agree that we have no power over sin when we come to Christ, so it is NOT by works that we are "worthy" to be saved. We couldn't stop sinning if we tried, so it is not by our works that Jesus accepted us.

Now my question to you is why do you think Jesus would leave you a sinner with a sin nature, and just give you the Holy Spirit to convict you of your sins as you keep committing them?

 

[Mjh29]

So we agree that we have no power over sin when we come to Christ, so it is NOT by works that we are "worthy" to be saved.

Agreed.

We couldn't stop sinning if we tried, so it is not by our works that Jesus accepted us.

Also agreed.

Now my question to you is why do you think Jesus would leave you a sinner with a sin nature, and just give you the Holy Spirit to convict you of your sins as you keep committing them?

I believe that this sin nature is slowly but surely being conquered. Men are still, at their core, men. And we all still sin even after conversion [which is evident from the Scriptures.]

In all honesty, I do not know why God does many of the things that He does, other than it brings Him ultimate glory. Could God have removed our sin nature completely? Yes. But this would be the exact kind of mindless-robotic command that non-Calvinists blame us of. Man enslaved himself to Satan; this would be God actually removing our ability to make decisions. Yes, we sometimes still chose evil; but God slowly works in us the WANT to do good; He does not just remove our ability to do evil.

 

[Steve Owen]

Yes, this is the crux of our differences. Sin.

What we agree on is that Jesus died for our sin.

However, you didn't tell me HOW we are to "work" to overcome sin from your last post. After you answer that I think I'll be able to continue.

Hello C.L.
I wonder whether this extract from a series of articles that I wrote on the New Birth will be helpful to you.

The born-again Christian does not have a legal righteousness- that is, a pharisaic righteousness that comes from a slavish outward obedience to the law, whether it be the Mosaic Law or any other code of regulations. Such a righteousness is unavailable in any case because no one can keep God’s laws perfectly in his own strength (Acts 15:10; Rom 3:9, 23). Rather he has an evangelical righteousness; he seeks to keep the commandments of Christ out of love for the One who has loved him so much (John 14:15) and he does so by the power of the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:16). I find the 1646 Baptist Confession very helpful when it states (Art XXIX), ‘All believers are a holy and sanctified people, and that sanctification is a spiritual grace of the new covenant, and an effect of the love of God manifested in the soul, whereby the believer presseth after a heavenly and evangelical obedience to all the commands, which Christ as head and king in His new covenant hath prescribed to them.’ Those who try to be justified by keeping the law in their own strength find it impossible and cry out, “Who then can be saved?” (Mark 10:26), but they who have been justified by faith find that ‘His commandments are not burdensome’ (1John 5:3) for there is really only one command for the Christian, the commandment of love (Rom. 13:8-10) and we love because He first loved us.

Perhaps someone might ask what purpose there is for the law if believers are no longer subject to it. Paul gives us two answers in Galatians 3; firstly, ‘it was added because of transgressions’(v19). Any law is introduced to restrict wrongdoing by the threat of punishment, but of course it is never completely effective because people’s sinful nature inevitably leads them into law-breaking. The Israelites could not keep the laws of Moses and were regularly punished by God, for the nature of the law is to demand obedience and to punish disobedience. Nevertheless, the law regulated Israel’s behaviour to some degree until the coming of Christ. The law also has another purpose; ‘The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ’ (v24). No one ever becomes a Christian until he has seen himself as a sinner. By revealing to us in the law His righteousness and our own sinfulness, God uses the law to drive us to Christ for salvation. Paul writes, ‘I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet”’ (Rom 7:7).

So if we are Christians, does the law still have anything to say to us? Can we now forget all about it since we are under grace? Has our old tutor, having served his purpose, been pensioned off for good? Surely not! If that were the case then we would have to cut Psalm 119 from the Bible, since we could no longer say with the Psalmist, ‘Oh, how I love your law! It is my meditation all the day’ (v97). Those of us who had really good tutors or schoolmasters when we were young have not forgotten their wise instruction just because they are no longer in authority over us. For instance, we are no longer under the obligation to tithe as the Israelites were (eg. Deut. 14:22ff; 1Cor 9:7), but if we want to know how much we should be looking to give to the Lord’s work then where else should we look but to the Old Testament where God’s heart is so clearly revealed? But of course, we are free as Christians to give even more than a tithe if the Lord has prospered us (1Cor. 16:2). In every part of our Christian lives, we will find in God’s law wise teaching and wholesome advice. If we feel that we can do without it, then we had better be quite sure that we are Christians at all.

So what about the Ten Commandments, written by the very finger of God on Mount Horeb (Deut 5:22)? Do these still apply to the born-again believer? These commandments were written on the hearts of Adam and Eve in the garden*, and are still on the hearts of all men, though defaced and obscured by the Fall (Rom 2:14-15). These Commandments, written on stone tablets for Israel under the Old Covenant, are written anew on the hearts of all believers in the New (2Cor 3:3; Heb 10:16). So we can say with the Psalmist, ‘I delight to do Your will, O my God, and Your law is within my heart’ (Psalm 40:8)**. What law is within our hearts? The one previously written upon stone tablets; the Ten Commandments. Those who try to make out that the fourth Commandment has somehow become detached along the way are mistaken. To be sure there are difficulties with the application of the Sabbath to today’s society, and I do not intend to address them here, but if the reader will carefully consider the texts quoted above, he will see that the law written on our hearts is the same as that which was formerly written on stone.
And the stones contained ten commandments, not nine.

* A moment’s thought will confirm this. Suppose Adam had strangled Eve, or had erected an altar to the Sun in the garden of Eden. Would God have said, “That’s alright, Adam! Just so long as you don’t eat that apple!” The very idea is ridiculous.
** The Christian is in the position of the freed slave in Exodus 21:5-6. He has been freed from his old master, sin, but loves his new Master, Christ and does not wish to be freed from Him. So our ear is pierced (cf. Psalm 40:6, NIV) showing that although he has been made free, he still serves the master he loves (Rom 6:15-18).

You can read the whole article here New Birth (8). The Results of the New Birth. as well as getting access to my other articles if you wish. But I hope you get the message: just because believers are no longer under the law as something that condemns them, that doesn't mean that they are free to sin as much as they like. God forbid! We are not saved by the things we do, but if anyone claims to have trusted in Christ, but there is no change whatsoever in his life, he is deceiving himself. He is saying that, ‘That which is born of the Spirit’ can still be flesh.

 

[CharismaticLady]

And we all still sin even after conversion [which is evident from the Scriptures.]

This is a major conflict of our interpretation of some scriptures, that we have gone over, but we still need to see these in context. Context is key.

In all honesty, I do not know why God does many of the things that He does, other than it brings Him ultimate glory. Could God have removed our sin nature completely? Yes. But this would be the exact kind of mindless-robotic command that non-Calvinists blame us of. Man enslaved himself to Satan; this would be God actually removing our ability to make decisions. Yes, we sometimes still chose evil; but God slowly works in us the WANT to do good; He does not just remove our ability to do evil.

Could God have removed our sin nature completely? Yes. And He did. It doesn't make us mindless robots. This is how it works.

It was like going from a lion and a taste for blood and meat, to being a lamb and all I want is grass. That is what it means to be born again - it is our NATURE that is changed into 2 Peter 1, the divine nature. That doesn't mean we are robots, but as Augustine said, we do what comes naturally to our new nature.

Another hurdle to the Calvinist belief that "sin is sin." But God sees sins unto death, and sins not unto death. There is a difference. A lamb doesn't commit sins unto death. But we still commit sins not unto death and grow out of them as our fruit of the Spirit matures.

 

[CharismaticLady]

‘All believers are a holy and sanctified people, and that sanctification is a spiritual grace of the new covenant, and an effect of the love of God manifested in the soul, whereby the believer presseth after a heavenly and evangelical obedience to all the commands, which Christ as head and king in His new covenant hath prescribed to them.’

I like this and believe it, but do not see most Christians believe that we are already sanctified as it says here. But we are. Justification/cleansing of all our old sins and then being set apart unto God/sanctified are back to back. Most believe sanctification is a slow process of overcoming sin. Not! There is a process, but it is glorification as we are partakers of the divine nature. 2 Peter 1

I said above:

It was like going from a lion and a taste for blood and meat, to being a lamb and all I want is grass. That is what it means to be born again - it is our NATURE that is changed into 2 Peter 1, the divine nature. That doesn't mean we are robots, but as Augustine said, we do what comes naturally to our new nature.

We are not under the Old Covenant of the Ten Commandments, and the Sabbath was the sign of the Old Covenant. Jesus' Sermon on the Mount showed how he deepened all the old commandments to the sourse: the heart. The lion above is the old carnal nature that could never be righteous. The lamb has the commandments of Jesus written on his hearts, and keeps them naturally.

Remember the Pharisees kept the Ten Commandments, but Jesus said, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, you will not see the Kingdom of heaven. (From memory, but it is something like that) Christ's commandments can make us righteous, whereas the old Law never could.

 

[Mjh29]

This is a major conflict of our interpretation of some scriptures, that we have gone over, but we still need to see these in context. Context is key.



Could God have removed our sin nature completely? Yes. And He did. It doesn't make us mindless robots. This is how it works.

It was like going from a lion and a taste for blood and meat, to being a lamb and all I want is grass. That is what it means to be born again - it is our NATURE that is changed into 2 Peter 1, the divine nature. That doesn't mean we are robots, but as Augustine said, we do what comes naturally to our new nature.

Another hurdle to the Calvinist belief that "sin is sin." But God sees sins unto death, and sins not unto death. There is a difference. A lamb doesn't commit sins unto death. But we still commit sins not unto death and grow out of them as our fruit of the Spirit matures.

But that makes it so that God removes the ability to choose sin, doesn't it? Not saying that sin is something worth choosing at all, but still.

And it is clear in the Scriptures that even the saved men of God sinned after conversion.

 

[CharismaticLady]

And it is clear in the Scriptures that even the saved men of God sinned after conversion.

I would like you to reason this out. Maybe you've never noticed this verse. Romans 7:9 is about mankind before and after the law was given through Moses. Was Paul there? He's speaking in the first person as if he was. Of course not. The "I" is "mankind" and the law is the Ten Commandments given on Mt. Sinai. And read the context of the Scripture about Paul being the chief of sinners. He is praising God that though the chief of sinners in his eyes for killing Christians, God saved him.

You see, because you've been taught that we will always have the sin nature, you think it is natural that the man in Romans 7 is struggling. But I see the inclusion of the mentioning of the sin nature producing sin in Romans 7 to be the glaring reason it has to be before Christ gives us the Spirit in chapter 8, the conclusion of Paul's whole teaching on the Old Covenant vs. the New Covenant from chapter 1 through chapter 8. Jesus said we must be born again. That is our nature that has to be born again into the divine nature 2 Pt. 1 below. The man in Romans 7 isn't. And Paul is NOT describing himself as you think. Think about it; is Paul saying that Christians are dead to sin in Romans 6:2 and he's a sinner so is not a Christian? Is Romans 6 and 8 about all Christians but himself, because he's the struggling sinner in Romans 7?

Are you aware that 2 Corinthians 3:7-10 is comparing the same thing that Romans 7 and 8 are comparing. Romans 7 is talking about those under the LAW, the ministry of death below. It is called the ministry of death because of sin. Now look at Romans 8:2 The law of the Spirit of life in Christ (the ministry of the Spirit) has set us free of the law of sin and death (the ministry of death). In other Words Romans 8 has set us free from the struggles of Romans 7. The power of the Spirit frees us from committing WILLFUL SINS OF LAWLESSNESS - the breaking of a OT commandment. 1 John 3:4-5. Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY our sin, and in Him there is no sin. In other words our born again nature has no taste for blood as it did before, and cannot stand it (from my analogy of the lion and lamb).

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

2 Peter 1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (freedom from sin)

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. (not past, present and future sins as you've been taught.)

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (OSAS can be a very dangerous teaching if applied as the OP does. Can you see he is in danger?)

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Thank you for leaving the conversation.

I haven't left the conversation, you left our conversation offended you were asked to pray for understanding. Let's get that straight.

 

[CharismaticLady]

But that makes it so that God removes the ability to choose sin, doesn't it? Not saying that sin is something worth choosing at all, but still.

Yes, we can choose to go against our new nature and join our old friends in debautchery. But that would be disobeying Paul's command of "do not quench the Spirit." That is also like Peter's analogy of a dog going back to his own vomit.

This opens up another can of worms on OSAS. If you choose to become a slave to sin again after quenching the Spirit that God has given us to choose to endure to the end, you will reap the consequences. You will not inherit eternal life.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Because you believe that we will always have the sin nature, you cannot see that it is because of the sin nature that the man in Romans 7 is struggling. But I see the inclusion of the sin nature in Romans 7 to be the reason it is obviously before Christ gives us the Spirit in chapter 8, the conclusion of Paul's whole teaching on the Old Covenant vs. the New Covenant. And Paul is NOT describing himself as you think. Is Paul saying that Christians are dead to sin in Romans 6 and he is not a Christian? Is that about all Christians but himself?

Look at Romans 7:9 about before and after the law was given through Moses. Was Paul there? He's speaking in the first person as if he was. No "I" is "mankind" and the law. And read the context of the Scripture about Paul being the chief of sinners. He is praising God that though the chief of sinners in his eyes for killing Christians, God saved him.

You've misunderstand Romans 7 in addition to forcing "I" as meaning "mankind" eisegetically . Please provide other sources to support your unsupported view. What commentaries have you read on this book and chapter outside of supplying your tradition into it?