Calvinism

[Preacher4Truth]

Yes, we can choose to go against our new nature and join our old friends in debautchery. But that would be disobeying Paul's command of "do not quench the Spirit." That is also like Peter's analogy of a dog going back to his own vomit.

This opens up another can of worms on OSAS. If you choose to become a slave to sin again after quenching the Spirit that God has given us to choose to endure to the end, you will reap the consequences. You will not inherit eternal life.

Dogs go back to their vomit because they were always dogs. That's the meaning, contextually. It's not sheep becoming dogs, it just shows what they truly were all along.

 

[CharismaticLady]

@Mjh29 Be back later. I need to stand up a while and do dishes. LOL

 

[Steve Owen]

The text Preacher4Truth provided"

12 So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

I think you owe @Preacher4Truth a bit of an apology. He was trying to help you. It is good to ask God to help you to work out those parts of His word that you may find difficult.

First of all, Paul is telling the Philippians that their motivation must not last only as long as Paul's presence among them. Having trusted in Christ, they must not sit back and think "Let go and let God." If God is your Shepherd, He will lead you in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake; but the evidence of His leading will be your following. God's sheep are a special breed; they are distinguished by their ears and their feet. They hear the Shepherd's voice and the follow Him (John 10:27).

Paul teaches that the Christian is a new creature in Christ Jesus, but he also teaches that there is a relic of our old sinful nature that resides, not in us, but in our flesh or 'members.' 'For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these things are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish' (Galatians 5:17). 'For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man, but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is [not in my heart but] in my members. O wretched man that I am!' (Romans 7:22-24).

So what our we to do about this? 'Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness.......etc. Because of this the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience' (Colossians 3:5-6; Romans 6:12). We are to battle, struggle, fight against indwelling sin, showing even our more darling sins no mercy, but hacking them down before the Lord like so many Agags (1 Samuel 15:33). I once read a splendid article that likened our indwelling sin to the Amalekites. They attack us when we are at our weakest (Deuteronomy 25:17-19) and, like God, we are to declare constant war against them and destroy them wherever and whenever they rise against us (Exodus 17:16). But alas! In this life we shall never be able to defeat them utterly (1 Samuel 30:17). However, we have this promise from God: 'sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace' (Romans 6:14).

So to work out your salvation in fear and trembling is to battle against sin, for if sin does have dominion over you, that is an indication that you are not under grace. But if you are under grace and battling against indwelling sin to destroy it, then you will succeed progressively because, 'It is God who works in you to will and to do of His good pleasure.'

 

[CharismaticLady]

I think you owe @Preacher4Truth a bit of an apology. He was trying to help you. It is good to ask God to help you to work out those parts of His word that you may find difficult.

First of all, Paul is telling the Philippians that their motivation must not last only as long as Paul's presence among them. Having trusted in Christ, they must not sit back and think "Let go and let God." If God is your Shepherd, He will lead you in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake; but the evidence of His leading will be your following. God's sheep are a special breed; they are distinguished by their ears and their feet. They hear the Shepherd's voice and the follow Him (John 10:27).

Paul teaches that the Christian is a new creature in Christ Jesus, but he also teaches that there is a relic of our old sinful nature that resides, not in us, but in our flesh or 'members.' 'For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these things are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish' (Galatians 5:17). 'For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man, but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is [not in my heart but] in my members. O wretched man that I am!' (Romans 7:22-24).

So what our we to do about this? 'Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness.......etc. Because of this the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience' (Colossians 3:5-6; Romans 6:12). We are to battle, struggle, fight against indwelling sin, showing even our more darling sins no mercy, but hacking them down before the Lord like so many Agags (1 Samuel 15:33). I once read a splendid article that likened our indwelling sin to the Amalekites. They attack us when we are at our weakest (Deuteronomy 25:17-19) and, like God, we are to declare constant war against them and destroy them wherever and whenever they rise against us (Exodus 17:16). But alas! In this life we shall never be able to defeat them utterly (1 Samuel 30:17). However, we have this promise from God: 'sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace' (Romans 6:14).

So to work out your salvation in fear and trembling is to battle against sin, for if sin does have dominion over you, that is an indication that you are not under grace. But if you are under grace and battling against indwelling sin to destroy it, then you will succeed progressively because, 'It is God who works in you to will and to do of His good pleasure.'

We've already been through a sarcastic debate and got no where. So Mjh27 and I decided to start over civilly and he wanted to know why I believed as I did, and I the same. Then P4T wanted in, but instead of bringing a teaching as you just did and show why he believed as he did, he brought contempt into the discussion and wanted me to interpret his text, which is what he was suppose to do in this type of discussion. That is not the manner we are going to conduct ourselves in this discussion, so he's out.

 

[Mjh29]

I would like you to reason this out. Maybe you've never noticed this verse. Romans 7:9 is about mankind before and after the law was given through Moses. Was Paul there? He's speaking in the first person as if he was. Of course not. The "I" is "mankind" and the law is the Ten Commandments given on Mt. Sinai. And read the context of the Scripture about Paul being the chief of sinners. He is praising God that though the chief of sinners in his eyes for killing Christians, God saved him.

You see, because you've been taught that we will always have the sin nature, you think it is natural that the man in Romans 7 is struggling. But I see the inclusion of the mentioning of the sin nature producing sin in Romans 7 to be the glaring reason it has to be before Christ gives us the Spirit in chapter 8, the conclusion of Paul's whole teaching on the Old Covenant vs. the New Covenant from chapter 1 through chapter 8. Jesus said we must be born again. That is our nature that has to be born again into the divine nature 2 Pt. 1 below. The man in Romans 7 isn't. And Paul is NOT describing himself as you think. Think about it; is Paul saying that Christians are dead to sin in Romans 6:2 and he's a sinner so is not a Christian? Is Romans 6 and 8 about all Christians but himself, because he's the struggling sinner in Romans 7?

Are you aware that 2 Corinthians 3:7-10 is comparing the same thing that Romans 7 and 8 are comparing. Romans 7 is talking about those under the LAW, the ministry of death below. It is called the ministry of death because of sin. Now look at Romans 8:2 The law of the Spirit of life in Christ (the ministry of the Spirit) has set us free of the law of sin and death (the ministry of death). In other Words Romans 8 has set us free from the struggles of Romans 7. The power of the Spirit frees us from committing WILLFUL SINS OF LAWLESSNESS - the breaking of a OT commandment. 1 John 3:4-5. Jesus was manifest to TAKE AWAY our sin, and in Him there is no sin. In other words our born again nature has no taste for blood as it did before, and cannot stand it (from my analogy of the lion and lamb).

7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

2 Peter 1:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (freedom from sin)

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. (not past, present and future sins as you've been taught.)

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (OSAS can be a very dangerous teaching if applied as the OP does. Can you see he is in danger?)

I read this about 7 times, and still cannot make heads or tails of it. I was trying to find a place of agreement or argument, but I really don't understand what you are talking about.

Here is what I know:

~ Jacob tricked his brother and lied to get his birthright
~ Moses disobeyed God directly on at least 1 occasion, and Aaron the high priest literally built a golden idol for God's people to worship
~ David committed adultery and then had Bathsheba's husband killed
~ Solomon had multiple wives, which is against the Law of God
~ Peter denied Christ not once but 3 times, as well as sinned blatantly, which Paul calls him out on.

THESE are the men of God; and to be honest I do not find any of them fitting this description of a Christian that you are giving. It is a good thing to dig deep into the Scriptures; I have no problem with that. But when we try to dig to the depth of the Word to contradict is plain, surface-reading teachings, it's about time we stepped back and asked ourselves if WE are the ones twisting Scripture [intentionally or not]

 

[Mjh29]

I think you owe @Preacher4Truth a bit of an apology. He was trying to help you. It is good to ask God to help you to work out those parts of His word that you may find difficult.

First of all, Paul is telling the Philippians that their motivation must not last only as long as Paul's presence among them. Having trusted in Christ, they must not sit back and think "Let go and let God." If God is your Shepherd, He will lead you in the paths of righteousness for His name's sake; but the evidence of His leading will be your following. God's sheep are a special breed; they are distinguished by their ears and their feet. They hear the Shepherd's voice and the follow Him (John 10:27).

Paul teaches that the Christian is a new creature in Christ Jesus, but he also teaches that there is a relic of our old sinful nature that resides, not in us, but in our flesh or 'members.' 'For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these things are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish' (Galatians 5:17). 'For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man, but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is [not in my heart but] in my members. O wretched man that I am!' (Romans 7:22-24).

So what our we to do about this? 'Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness.......etc. Because of this the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience' (Colossians 3:5-6; Romans 6:12). We are to battle, struggle, fight against indwelling sin, showing even our more darling sins no mercy, but hacking them down before the Lord like so many Agags (1 Samuel 15:33). I once read a splendid article that likened our indwelling sin to the Amalekites. They attack us when we are at our weakest (Deuteronomy 25:17-19) and, like God, we are to declare constant war against them and destroy them wherever and whenever they rise against us (Exodus 17:16). But alas! In this life we shall never be able to defeat them utterly (1 Samuel 30:17). However, we have this promise from God: 'sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace' (Romans 6:14).

So to work out your salvation in fear and trembling is to battle against sin, for if sin does have dominion over you, that is an indication that you are not under grace. But if you are under grace and battling against indwelling sin to destroy it, then you will succeed progressively because, 'It is God who works in you to will and to do of His good pleasure.'

Agreed. There should be mutual respect and kindness shown in any argument; that's just basic debate etiquette. And @Preacher4Truth is a brother in Christ for certain, and I will not debate with anyone unless he is shown the same respect and dignity as I am.

 

[Grailhunter]

I read this about 7 times, and still cannot make heads or tails of it. I was trying to find a place of agreement or argument, but I really don't understand what you are talking about.

Here is what I know:

~ Jacob tricked his brother and lied to get his birthright
~ Moses disobeyed God directly on at least 1 occasion, and Aaron the high priest literally built a golden idol for God's people to worship
~ David committed adultery and then had Bathsheba's husband killed
~ Solomon had multiple wives, which is against the Law of God
~ Peter denied Christ not once but 3 times, as well as sinned blatantly, which Paul calls him out on.

THESE are the men of God; and to be honest I do not find any of them fitting this description of a Christian that you are giving. It is a good thing to dig deep into the Scriptures; I have no problem with that. But when we try to dig to the depth of the Word to contradict is plain, surface-reading teachings, it's about time we stepped back and asked ourselves if WE are the ones twisting Scripture [intentionally or not]

Bingo!!! And that is why you can be a Calvinist! You cannot understand the scriptures. What she is saying is as simple and clear and backed up with scriptures and you can read what she says and look at scriptures and you still do not have a clue. The truth is static to you. Buzzing in the wind.

 

[Willie T]

Kind of hard to deny that Peter didn't also (along with several other apostles) still have a sin problem going on in his life when you read this. (and this was at least 20 years after the cross)
Galatians 2:11-13 The Passion Translation (TPT)
Paul Confronts Peter
11 But when Peter visited Antioch,[1] he began to mislead the believers and caused them to stumble over his behavior, so I had to confront him to his face over what he was doing. 12 He enjoyed being with the non-Jewish believers who didn’t keep the Jewish customs, eating his meals with them—up until the time the Jewish friends of James arrived from Jerusalem. When he saw them, he withdrew from his non-Jewish friends and separated himself from them, acting like an orthodox Jew—fearing how it would look to them if he ate with the non-Jewish believers.[2]

13 And so because of Peter’s hypocrisy,[3] many other Jewish believers followed suit, refusing to eat with non-Jewish believers. Even Barnabas was led astray by their poor example and condoned this legalistic, hypocritical behavior!

Footnotes:

1. Galatians 2:11 Antioch was a large city in Syria with a significant Jewish population. It was in Antioch that believers were first called Christians and it was the first church to send out missionaries to the nations. See Acts 11:25; 13:1–3.
2. Galatians 2:12 Or “those who were not of the circumcision.”
3. Galatians 2:13 The incident of Acts 10–11 happened before this account in Gal. 2. Peter was shown by a heavenly vision that God views the non-Jewish believers as “clean.” This amplifies Peter’s hypocrisy. Even Jesus’ apostles had conflicts that needed to be worked out and healed.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

We've already been through a sarcastic debate and got no where. So Mjh27 and I decided to start over civilly and he wanted to know why I believed as I did, and I the same. Then P4T wanted in, but instead of bringing a teaching as you just did and show why he believed as he did, he brought contempt into the discussion and wanted me to interpret his text, which is what he was suppose to do in this type of discussion. That is not the manner we are going to conduct ourselves in this discussion, so he's out.

The above is sadly untrue.

First, I never brought contempt, but love, and a desire for you to see what is right there. That you took offense over asking you to pray over a text is both remarkable and sad. You found such a suggestion as "contemptuous" and such is frankly nothing but pridefulness on your part.

Secondly, it isn't my text, it is God's word. I only wanted you to see what is so implicitly stated in the text. Thus far you haven't and you've turned instead to attempt ridicule.

Lastly, no, I'm not out, you don't possess such authority or power. I'm still here in dialog and will continue discussion and dialog whether with you or not, so what is really going on is you've taken yourself out, not me.

I made an attempt to treat you like a sister, and you've been on the assault ever since for the fact you think asking you to pray about a text is something that is beneath you, and contemptuous. Your tone has been prideful, unChristian and disrespectful. Even though these things are true, I am not counting you as an enemy. My suggestion is you lose your pride and show a teachable humble spirit that isn't offended about a call to prayer to understand what He who is Higher than all has said in His word.

Feel free to put me on ignore if you see yourself as unteachable and prayer beneath you.

 

[CharismaticLady]

~ Jacob tricked his brother and lied to get his birthright
~ Moses disobeyed God directly on at least 1 occasion, and Aaron the high priest literally built a golden idol for God's people to worship
~ David committed adultery and then had Bathsheba's husband killed
~ Solomon had multiple wives, which is against the Law of God
~ Peter denied Christ not once but 3 times, as well as sinned blatantly, which Paul calls him out on.

Jacob through Solomon above were not Christians. Peter when he denied Christ had not been filled with the Holy Spirit. Paul and Peter's disagreement, were not willful sins of lawlessness. They were both trespassing against each other. Those two different types of sins are either unto death, or not unto death. Trespasses are NOT unto death.

But when we try to dig to the depth of the Word to contradict is plain, surface-reading teachings, it's about time we stepped back and asked ourselves if WE are the ones twisting Scripture

What scripture are you specifically referring to when you say "plain, surface-reading teachings"? That is what we are here to discuss. Please quote a plain scripture and your interpretation of what it means to your Christian walk and standing with God.

 

[Waiting on him]

The above is sadly untrue.

First, I never brought contempt, but love, and a desire for you to see what is right there. That you took offense over asking you to pray over a text is both remarkable and sad. You found such a suggestion as "contemptuous" and such is frankly nothing but pridefulness on your part.

Secondly, it isn't my text, it is God's word. I only wanted you to see what is so implicitly stated in the text. Thus far you haven't and you've turned instead to attempt ridicule.

Lastly, no, I'm not out, you don't possess such authority or power. I'm still here in dialog and will continue discussion and dialog whether with you or not, so what is really going on is you've taken yourself out, not me.

I made an attempt to treat you like a sister, and you've been on the assault ever since for the fact you think asking you to pray about a text is something that is beneath you, and contemptuous. Your tone has been prideful, unChristian and disrespectful. Even though these things are true, I am not counting you as an enemy. My suggestion is you lose your pride and show a teachable humble spirit that isn't offended about a call to prayer to understand what He who is Higher than all has said in His word.

Feel free to put me on ignore if you see yourself as unteachable and prayer beneath you.

Paul received a thorn to in my opinion keep his pride in check. It’s very obvious someone was assaulting his character, and this was really bugging him three times, he’s pleading with God to remove this messenger of satan. His answer is his Grace is sufficient, but for many they believe this is insufficient.

 

[Waiting on him]

Jacob through Solomon above were not Christians. Peter when he denied Christ had not been filled with the Holy Spirit. Paul and Peter's disagreement, were not willful sins of lawlessness. They were both trespassing against each other. Those two different types of sins are either unto death, or not unto death. Trespasses are NOT unto death.



What scripture are you specifically referring to when you say "plain, surface-reading teachings"? That is what we are here to discuss. Please quote a plain scripture and your interpretation of what it means to your Christian walk and standing with God.

Sins unto death?

 

[Enoch111]

Jacob through Solomon above were not Christians.

No one in the OT was a *Christian* but the OT saints were justified by grace through faith, and Jacob was certainly one of them. In fact Jesus specifically mentioned Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being in the Kingdom of God.

Solomon is not mentioned in the list of OT saints, and he did go into apostasy at the end of his life. Yet his writings are within the canon of Scripture.

In any case, your contention that Christians do not and cannot sin is completely FALSE. And self-deception is the worst kind of deception. And even that is a sin.

 

[Enoch111]

Sins unto death?

As you probably know John mentions the sin unto death in his first epistle. Paul also mentions it (but not by name). But CL does not really know what is means, since she could not apply it Ananias and Sapphira (saints who sinned unto death -- premature physical death -- not eternal damnation).

 

[Waiting on him]

As you probably know John mentions the sin unto death in his first epistle. Paul also mentions it (but not by name). But CL does not really know what is means, since she could not apply it Ananias and Sapphira (saints who sinned unto death -- premature physical death -- not eternal damnation).

I believe John says not to pray for it, it being one. What’s your take on that ?

 

[Enoch111]

I believe John says not to pray for it, it being one. What’s your take on that ?

John is speaking about sinning brothers (or sisters which are not mentioned, but may be assumed) and it would be in a local church setting where other believers would be aware of the sinning brother and his sins.

Christians would normally be praying for this brother's repentance and restoration to fellowship, but when there is no sign of that, and the brother continues to sin regardless of all the admonitions and prayers of others, then he puts himself in jeopardy of premature physical death (a judgment by God). John says there is no need to pray for one who refuses to repent, since God will terminate his life on earth.

This is also why Paul tells believers to judge themselves before partaking of the Lord's Supper, otherwise they will be judged through this kind of severe chastisement. See 1 Corinthians 11.

 

[Waiting on him]

John is speaking about sinning brothers (or sisters which are not mentioned, but may be assumed) and it would be in a local church setting where other believers would be aware of the sinning brother and his sins.

Christians would normally be praying for this brother's repentance and restoration to fellowship, but when there is no sign of that, and the brother continues to sin regardless of all the admonitions and prayers of others, then he puts himself in jeopardy of premature physical death (a judgment by God). John says there is no need to pray for one who refuses to repent, since God will terminate his life on earth.

This is also why Paul tells believers to judge themselves before partaking of the Lord's Supper, otherwise they will be judged through this kind of severe chastisement. See 1 Corinthians 11.

So if I see people attribute works to the Holy Spirit that are not in-fact His workings, that I’ve told them over and over and prayed for them, then this is saying eventually I should just step back and let God deal with them. Kinda like when Paul instructs Corinth to turn this young man over to satan?

 

[Steve Owen]

What scripture are you specifically referring to when you say "plain, surface-reading teachings"? That is what we are here to discuss. Please quote a plain scripture and your interpretation of what it means to your Christian walk and standing with God.

@Mjh29 will doubtless come back with some verses of his own, but here's one from me:
1 Timothy 1:15. 'this is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am chief.'
Paul uses the Present Tense, eimi, meaning 'I am.' It would have been very simple for him to say 'I was,' but he didn't. In fact, the Present Tense in Greek denotes continuity, so the last part of the verse could be translated, 'of whom I am continually chief.'

Do please read again my post #1883. I'm aware that John Wesley taught, wrongly, that people could reach a state of sinless perfection, but he never claimed to have reached such a state himself.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Sins unto death?

1 John 5:16-17

There are two types of sins. Also read Numbers 15:22-36

 

[CharismaticLady]

No one in the OT was a *Christian* but the OT saints were justified by grace through faith, and Jacob was certainly one of them. In fact Jesus specifically mentioned Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being in the Kingdom of God.

Solomon is not mentioned in the list of OT saints, and he did go into apostasy at the end of his life. Yet his writings are within the canon of Scripture.

In any case, your contention that Christians do not and cannot sin is completely FALSE. And self-deception is the worst kind of deception. And even that is a sin.

I've explained the two types of sin. And a true Christian cannot commit sins outside our new nature. But we can and do commit trespasses, the sins not unto death.