Can a tare become saved?

[Aunty Jane]

Just to address a few points here…..

Everyone is a child of the devil at birth

This is plainly not true…no one is born a child of God or a child of the devil…..we are all born as a virtual blank canvas. Many factors will determine whose “child“ we prove ourselves to be as we grow to maturity…..it will be by the choices we make and the kind of person we become, that will determine whom we choose as our spiritual Father.

1 John:3:10-12…
“The children of God and the children of the Devil are evident by this fact: Whoever does not practice righteousness does not originate with God, nor does the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; 12 not like Cain, who originated with the wicked one and slaughtered his brother. And for what reason did he slaughter him? Because his own works were wicked, but those of his brother were righteous.”

Its all about what we practice. IOW, our actions speak louder than our words. We can all claim to be “Christians”, but it’s our choices of belief and action that prove or disprove our claim. Our beliefs spill over into our actions and attitude…..so our beliefs and actions determine who our “Father” is.

yes, in the sense that anyone who at whatever point in his/her life he/she becomes born again of the Spirit, he/she was previously a tare, but has been made to be wheat ~ was lost but now is found, in the words of everyone's favorite hymn.

Exploring that passage by the apostle John, (above) he emphasizes the love we should have for one another….the one thing Jesus emphasized was that we should be “no part of the world”…(John 17:16; 18:36) so what did he mean by that?
What is “the world” that Jesus spoke about?
The one John mentions in 1 John 5:19….
”We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.”.
What part of “the whole world” are we not suppose to be part of? It’s rulership and things related to it’s various forms of governance…because the whole world is ruled by the devil. (Luke 4:5-7) No nation is exempt. Standards of morality are also dictated by Satan’s world, as we can clearly see.

No matter what nation we reside in, the political agenda of that nation is not something we, as citizens of God’s Kingdom, should participate in. We do not have dual citizenship, and therefore as residents of any nation, we are law abiding, but politically neutral. That means we cannot participate in any political campaigns or support any political agenda….nor can we participate in military action and bloodshed actioned by those governments…….most especially if the “enemy” is also a “Christian”. (1 John 4:20-21)

We will not be whipped up by patriotic emotions, but will remain neutral bystanders, knowing that God has everything under his control and will act when his time is right. He does not need us to save the world….he just needs us to preach the message of the kingdom. (Matt 24:14) He will save the world.

Paul mentions “ambassadors” in 2 Cor 5:20, so we know that an ambassador does not meddle in the politics of the nation to which he is assigned….but represents his nation in that country.

This is what it means to be in the world, but no part of it.
How many “Christians” today demonstrate that kind of loyalty to God’s Kingdom rather than man’s?

and no, in a different sense, the sense that, on Jesus's return, all who are going to be saved will have been saved; that's actually what prompts Christ's return at the end of the current age, so no, that that point, there will be no "crossing the line."

Yes, at that point in time, all will have placed themselves in one of only two categories……”sheep” or “goats”.
So what differentiates them? I believe that the scriptures already mentioned answer that question.

To the follow-up question, "how does this fit with Satan being bound or not bound?"... The only place in the Bible where the reason for Satan's binding is mentioned is Revelation 20:2-3. He is absolutely restricted from "deceiving the nations," which means he absolutely cannot prevent the spread of the Gospel

He never really prevented the spread of the gospel…where do you get that idea? He certainly tried, but God’s spirit did not allow him to succeed. What he could do that was even more successful, was to thoroughly corrupt the gospel and divide “Christians“ into literally thousands of sects all claiming to teach the truth. How do you confuse people? You give them too many choices and overwhelm them, and then you introduce the fear factor of eternal conscious torment in the fires of hell…..and scare them into submission.
That is satanic coercion. How many have fallen for that?

Christianity is based on love not fear. Any who believe that God derives some kind of sadistic pleasure in torturing souls forever in flames, does not know him at all…..all humans were ever offered, was the choice between life or death….not heaven or hell. So who is the author of this lie? He has plenty of them, and the weeds believe him for some reason. This is how Christ identifies who the weeds are.

 

[Scott Downey]

The entire letter from Jude, and also Peter's warning of false teachers among the people of God, and Paul's warning to church elders of fierce wolves rising up even from among their own number to eat up the sheep of which he warned them for years with tears in the churches offers ample evidence.

2 Peter 2

Destructive Doctrines​

But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. ...

Jude​

​

New King James Version​

​

​

Greeting to the Called​

1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
To those who are called, [a]sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:
2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

Contend for the Faith​

3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. 4 For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord [b]God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Old and New Apostates​

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their [c]proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the [d]vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of [e]dignitaries. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, in [f]contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

Apostates Depraved and Doomed​

12 These are [g]spots in your love feasts, while they feast with you without fear, serving only themselves. They are clouds without water, carried [h]about by the winds; late autumn trees without fruit, twice dead, pulled up by the roots; 13 raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Apostates Predicted​

16 These are grumblers, complainers, walking according to their own lusts; and they mouth great swelling words, flattering people to gain advantage. 17 But you, beloved, remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: 18 how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. 19 These are [i]sensual persons, who cause divisions, not having the Spirit.

Maintain Your Life with God​

20 But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
22 And on some have compassion, [j]making a distinction; 23 but others save [k]with fear, pulling them out of the [l]fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

Glory to God​

24 Now to Him who is able to keep [m]you from stumbling,
And to present you faultless
Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To [n]God our Savior,
[o]Who alone is wise,
Be glory and majesty,
Dominion and [p]power,
Both now and forever.
Amen.

 

[Rockerduck]

Right...


Hmmm... I both agree and disagree with this, in certain senses... I mean, as Job finally says to God in Job 42:2, "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted." God is always in control of what happens anywhere and to everyone, both making things to happen and allowing things to happen. As Isaiah says ~ quoting God, actually ~ "as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall My Word be that goes out from My mouth; it shall not return to Me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it." As Paul says in Romans 8:28, "for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose."

Right, but I was once not; originally my father was Satan, This is true of everyone from birth, even from conception, and this is the result of the fall of Adam and Eve, our first parents, as documented by Moses in Genesis 3.


Right, and He's speaking of the end of the age; those tares, who remain tares to the end of the age, will not be saved.


Absolutely.


In that they are chosen, yes, but they are not of God until they are born again of the Spirit. This is what we have to understand about the wheat and the tares, that the former, the wheat, are those who are of God, and the tares are those who are of the devil. All are, from birth, of the devil, but some do not remain so. The others are "given over" by God "to their own selfish passions and desires," as Paul says in Romans 1, and they remain in this state.


In one sense he is not ~ he is able to deceive individuals ~ but in another sense he absolutely is, in the sense of what is said in Revelation 20:2-3, that he is absolutely restricted from deceiving the nations... whole people groups, all people groups except Israel; he absolutely cannot prevent the spread of the Gospel to Gentiles as well as Israel... peoples of every tongue, tribe, and nation. Thus Jesus's commission of us all in Matthew 28 to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded."


Absolutely.


Hmmm, well not me...


Often they do, yes. But that does not mean, necessarily, that they are not led by the Spirit to do so.


I did not. <smile>


<smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Do you read commentaries? Don't because they are opinions and cause you to quote them, thinking they have some authority, and they don't. Then you are deceived

 

[PinSeeker]

That passage isn't teaching it is impossible for them to be saved.

I don't think anyone here is asserting that, David.

It is teaching that if they fall away after having been saved...

It is absolutely not teaching that, because falling away... which would be to altogether lose faith, which is given to us in salvation... it is the assurance of God and conviction by the Spirit (Hebrews 11:1)... is impossible, because the Spirit maintains this faith in us, by His power. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

...yet another passage that proves NOSAS is Biblical.

Not at all. As I said, it is exactly along the same lines as what John says in 1 John 2 of those who do fall ~ or have fallen ~ away, that "(t)hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us... (b)ut they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Do you read commentaries? Don't because they are opinions and cause you to quote them, thinking they have some authority, and they don't. Then you are deceived

<chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, RockerDuck.

 

[Rockerduck]

Then why did you figure this out?
Are you somebody special, Don?

Or did this come up during your conversation with satan?

I knew God early on, not everyone does. Satan? are obsessed with Satan? He is a liar of liars, I wouldn't throw that name around to much. He knows you better than you do. You don't want to meet him.

 

[Davidpt]

Don't be ridiculous. OSAS is biblical. You didn't save yourself, you didn't ask for salvation, God gave it to you. It is a gift. What man can tell God what to do, Jesus said I will never leave you or forsake you. Hebrew 6 is a warning for Jews not to go back into Mosiac law. Threaten a Christian that you'll lose the Holy Spirit will straighten anyone up, even if Paul knew it would not happen.

What I believe is this. Both OSAS and NOSAS are Biblical rather than only one is the other isn't. That might sound contradictory, yet it isn't. Take Paul, for example. Obviously, OSAS is applicable to him since he remained in a saved state all the way up unto death. While OTOH, someone like Judas never remained in a saved state all the way up unto death. In his case NOSAS is applicable. Therefore, when I say NOSAS is Biblical I am not denying that OSAS is Biblical. Yet, someone who insists only OSAS is Biblical is denying that NOSAS is Biblical. Unlike these, I'm not remotely saying only NOSAS is Biblical which would mean OSAS is not Biblical.

 

[PinSeeker]

no one is born a child of God or a child of the devil…..we are all born as a virtual blank canvas.

David says, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Psalm 51:5). This is true of us all. And Jesus says to a group of Jews in John 8, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires." There is no such thing as a "blank canvas." There is no time when we do not have a father... either humanly speaking or spiritually speaking. As Paul says in Romans 5:12, "just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned." And that is to say the sinful nature, even until that is outwardly manifested in us at whatever point that may be. We are by nature at enmity with God, which became true of Adam and Eve in the events of Genesis 3 but is true of all of us ~ from birth, even conception ~ because they are our first parents.

our beliefs and actions determine who our “Father” is.

Who our father is at any given time is affirmed by our beliefs and actions.

He never really prevented the spread of the gospel…where do you get that idea?

He was able to prevent the spread of the Gospel to nations outside of Israel until the coming of Jesus. This is what is meant by his deceiving the nations, which he could do, albeit only because God allowed Him to; it suited His purposes to allow him to do so ~ before Jesus came. Jesus's coming opened up the Gospel to all nations, thus His commission to His disciples (and all of us) in Matthew 28:19-20 to "go and make disciples of all nations..." ~ disciples not of the nations themselves, but of individuals from all nations.

What he could do that was even more successful, was to thoroughly corrupt the gospel and divide “Christians“ into literally thousands of sects all claiming to teach the truth.

Oh boy. Several things here... First, I would say the Gospel cannot be corrupted. Certainly it can be misunderstood and mistaught, but the Gospel is the Gospel; as both Isaiah and Peter (quoting Isaiah) say, "the grass withers, and the flower fades, but the Word of our God stands/endures forever." Surely you agree with that.

You give them too many choices and overwhelm them...

Pish. There really is only one choice to make. And make it we all do...

...you introduce the fear factor of eternal conscious torment in the fires of hell…

Hmmm, well, Jesus, not I, said, "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). I mean... I would concur... <smile> But this why do you attribute this to me? <smile>

..and scare them into submission.

It's not about being scared.

Christianity is based on love not fear.

Hmmm, well I agree, but I would point out Solomon's wisdom in saying, "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom." So... I mean I think whatever you would say to this we would basically agree (I hope), but how do you reconcile that to what you said here?

Any who believe that God derives some kind of sadistic pleasure in torturing souls forever in flames, does not know him at all…

Right, but who believes that? Certainly not me.

...all humans were ever offered, was the choice between life or death….not heaven or hell.

But heaven and hell are the results of that choice between life and death. I'm... really not even sure how you got here with this, but so it is.

So who is the author of this lie?

I think we agree on who the father of lies is, AJ.

He has plenty of them, and the weeds believe him for some reason.

Absolutely. And we know the reason. He is their father, and their will is to do the will of their father.

This is how Christ identifies who the weeds are.

Hmmm, well, He certainly knows His sheep, and His sheep know Him, and the follow Him. And He will lose not one... <smile> ...but will raise them up on the last day. Thanks be to God!

Grace and peace to you, AJ.

 

[PinSeeker]

What I believe is this. Both OSAS and NOSAS are Biblical rather than only one is the other isn't. That might sound contradictory, yet it isn't. Take Paul, for example. Obviously, OSAS is applicable to him since he remained in a saved state all the way up unto death. While OTOH, someone like Judas never remained in a saved state all the way up unto death. In his case NOSAS is applicable. Therefore, when I say NOSAS is Biblical I am not denying that OSAS is Biblical. Yet, someone who insists only OSAS is Biblical is denying that NOSAS is Biblical. Unlike these, I'm not remotely saying only NOSAS is Biblical which would mean OSAS is not Biblical.

Hmmmmm.... very interesting. In a sense, I agree. That sense is this, that we are both saved and are being saved at the same time. This is the simultaneous "now and not yet" of the Gospel. Is this what you're saying? We have not yet obtained the outcome ~ which is the salvation of our souls ~ but because we have been born again of the Spirit this outcome is certain, so we can live in light of this, even though for now we still, even though we certainly don't want to and try not to ~ we still, in this life, struggle against sin, striving to overcome it, because we are called to do so, die unto ourselves and live unto God, to take up our cross daily ~ fall short. As Peter says, by God through His Spirit we have been:

"...born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith ~ more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire ~ may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen Him, you love Him. Though you do not now see Him, you believe in Him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls."​

Is this what you mean to say?

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davidpt]

I don't think anyone here is asserting that, David.


It is absolutely not teaching that, because falling away... which would be to altogether lose faith, which is given to us in salvation... it is the assurance of God and conviction by the Spirit (Hebrews 11:1)... is impossible, because the Spirit maintains this faith in us, by His power. The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


Not at all. As I said, it is exactly along the same lines as what John says in 1 John 2 of those who do fall ~ or have fallen ~ away, that "(t)hey went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us... (b)ut they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

Grace and peace to you.

Sometimes in order to arrive at the truth of something requires that there is an opposite to take into consideration. For example, the following.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

But what happens if one doesn't overcome? Does it still mean this? the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Or does it mean this instead? the same shall not be clothed in white raiment; and I will blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will not confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

 

[Rockerduck]

What I believe is this. Both OSAS and NOSAS are Biblical rather than only one is the other isn't. That might sound contradictory, yet it isn't. Take Paul, for example. Obviously, OSAS is applicable to him since he remained in a saved state all the way up unto death. While OTOH, someone like Judas never remained in a saved state all the way up unto death. In his case NOSAS is applicable. Therefore, when I say NOSAS is Biblical I am not denying that OSAS is Biblical. Yet, someone who insists only OSAS is Biblical is denying that NOSAS is Biblical. Unlike these, I'm not remotely saying only NOSAS is Biblical which would mean OSAS is not Biblical.

Judas was never in a saved state, John 6:64 - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

 

[Davidpt]

Hmmmmm.... very interesting. In a sense, I agree. That sense is this, that we are both saved and are being saved at the same time. This is the simultaneous "now and not yet" of the Gospel. Is this what you're saying? We have not yet obtained the outcome ~ which is the salvation of our souls ~ but because we have been born again of the Spirit this outcome is certain, so we can live in light of this, even though for now we still, even though we certainly don't want to and try not to ~ we still, in this life, struggle against sin, striving to overcome it, because we are called to do so, die unto ourselves and live unto God, to take up our cross daily ~ fall short. As Peter says, by God through His Spirit we have been:

"...born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith ~ more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire ~ may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen Him, you love Him. Though you do not now see Him, you believe in Him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls."​

Is this what you mean to say?

Grace and peace to you.

What I basically mean is this. In order to be saved in the end one has to persevere unto the end. Meaning to the end of their life, or unto the 2nd coming. Whichever one might apply in their case. But if one falls away before they die and that they are in a fallen away state when they die, that equals NOSAS in their case.

 

[PinSeeker]

Sometimes in order to arrive at the truth of something requires that there is an opposite to take into consideration.

Sure.

For example, the following.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

But what happens if one doesn't overcome?

For those who are in Christ, he/she will overcome. But what is said there in Revelation 3:5 is still true. As the apostle John says, "For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world ~ our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world except the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 John 5:4-5). And again, Paul says in Romans 8, "we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... (nothing) in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

In the same sense as what I said above, we simultaneously have overcome and at this point are overcoming, but the outcome is certain... we will overcome... because Christ has overcome the world.

Does it still mean this? the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Or does it mean this instead? the same shall not be clothed in white raiment; and I will blot out his name out of the book of life, and I will not confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

<chuckles> The former, of course; see directly above.

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[Rockerduck]

What I basically mean is this. In order to be saved in the end one has to persevere unto the end. Meaning to the end of their life, or unto the 2nd coming. Whichever one might apply in their case. But if one falls away before they die and that they are in a fallen away state when they die, that equals NOSAS in their case.

Jesus disagrees that He will lose anyone.
John 10:28 - And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

 

[Davidpt]

Judas was never in a saved state, John 6:64 - But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

I guess that's debatable about Judas then, in regards to whether he was initially saved or not. I mentioned him since I assumed everyone agrees that he wasn't in a saved state when he died.

 

[PinSeeker]

What I basically mean is this. In order to be saved in the end one has to persevere unto the end. Meaning to the end of their life, or unto the 2nd coming. Whichever one might apply in their case.

Right, and Who enables us to persevere to the end, David? By Whose power are we kept to the end?

But if one falls away before they die...

Those who are born of God and thus in Christ will not fall away. The answer to the above questions ensures that. We have been "born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time" (1 Peter 1:3-5)

Those not born of God and thus not in Christ will fall away.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I guess that's debatable about Judas then, in regards to whether he was initially saved or not. I mentioned him since I assumed everyone agrees that he wasn't in a saved state when he died.

I don't believe there is anything in Scripture that enables us to say Judas was not saved. Yes, Jesus said, "one of you is a devil" in John 6:70, and He meant Judas. But in the sense in which He said that, we can all be "devils" in that we are still capable of sin and can still certainly do awful things. But Judas, like the other disciples of Jesus, was called by the Lord. Did Judas do something really terrible/sinful in betraying Jesus and also murdering himself? Well, absolutely. But no sin disqualifies, else there would be no Christians... and ultimately no one in the New Heaven and New Earth. All that is needed is faith as a mustard seed, and I say there is absolutely no reason to think Judas did not have at least that, especially because he was called by the Lord. Despite the heinousness of Judas's sin, God used Judas's actions... among several other things... in getting Jesus to the cross and accomplishing our redemption.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Davidpt]

The following, no person who believes that only OSAS is Biblical but NOSAS isn't, is going to be able to dispute the following below. Because if that one does or attempts to, it will clearly, undeniably, expose that person as purposely being deceitful and intellectually dishonest.

One cannot deny, thus would dare dispute, that for a Gentile to be graffed into the good olive tree equals salvation. One cannot deny, thus would dare dispute, that while a Jew has been cut off from the good olive tree that this does not equal salvation for them. Keeping these things in mind, notice what Paul plainly said in Romans 11 concerning Gentiles that are graffed into the good olive tree.

Romans 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


First Paul said this---For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Then Paul said this---but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Notice the if. Everyone knows that 'if' implies something conditional. Therefore, one cannot argue that if a Gentile does not continue in His goodness, thus is cut off, that this means this Gentile was never saved to begin with. Umm--how do you explain how they were graffed into the good olive tree without it involving them being saved first? Nor can one argue that if this Gentile is cut off, it still means this Gentile is saved. That would be like arguing that when a Jew is cut off that they are not lost at that point. That 'cut off' doesn't mean lost, it means saved.

Let's see one convincingly argue their way out of this one without being purposely deceitful, without being purposely intellectually dishonest in order to do so.

Only OSAS is Biblical but NOSAS isn't, has been 100% debunked, as in, case closed.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

God has mercy upon whom he chooses. I can't say God would never call a tare to His Salvation. God told us this. He does as he pleases.

Any tare brought to Salvation is blessed.
I would never criticize this.

 

[Sister-n-Christ]

I don't believe there is anything in Scripture that enables us to say Judas was not saved. Yes, Jesus said, "one of you is a devil" in John 6:70, and He meant Judas. But in the sense in which He said that, we can all be "devils" in that we are still capable of sin and can still certainly do awful things. But Judas, like the other disciples of Jesus, was called by the Lord. Did Judas do something really terrible/sinful in betraying Jesus and also murdering himself? Well, absolutely. But no sin disqualifies, else there would be no Christians... and ultimately no one in the New Heaven and New Earth. All that is needed is faith as a mustard seed, and I say there is absolutely no reason to think Judas did not have at least that, especially because he was called by the Lord. Despite the heinousness of Judas's sin, God used Judas's actions... among several other things... in getting Jesus to the cross and accomplishing our redemption.

Grace and peace to all.

I agree with you about the Salvation of Judas.

I also think when Jesus said one of you is a devil, he was aware Judas had Satan inside him.