Can the dead communicate with the living?

[VictoryinJesus]

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?

odd.
Romans 10:6-7 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above [7] Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Romans 10:7 Lexicon: or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)."

 

[Giuliano]

Yes, Lazarus was dead, Jesus qualified it in John 11:13-14....read the whole story in John 11:1-44

Then why did Jesus say his sickness was not unto death?

Giuliano...I cannot believe your ignorance on this matter. In the first instance Jesus is talking of a believer who has died.

Vs 25 + 26....here Jesus is using the word 'dead' and 'die' in the sense that he qualified sleep earlier mentioned. John 11:13-14

Re my reference to your ignorance....with respect Giuliano, your response is a good example of how an incorrect understanding blinds the mind even when the evidence of the information is right before you!

I get it that you are insulting me by talking about my ignorance; but you still didn't answer the questions. How could a dead person be saved if he believed on Jesus? And why did Jesus say those who believe on him will never die? Please answer the questions.

 

[quietthinker]

Then why did Jesus say his sickness was not unto death?
I get it that you are insulting me by talking about my ignorance; but you still didn't answer the questions. How could a dead person be saved if he believed on Jesus? And why did Jesus say those who believe on him will never die? Please answer the questions.

For God's sake Guliano, read the account. It's all in there.......Also, please reread my post you claim I have not replied to.

Then why did Jesus say his sickness was not unto death?

because Lazarus is not subject to the second death.

The questions are answered but can you see them? .....if you can't, is the word 'ignorance' too strong?....maybe blindness is a better choice of word?

You say I am insulting you but you didn't read my words 'with respect' added in there for the very purpose of allaying your fears of disrespect ie, they are not intended as an insult.

 

[Giuliano]

For God's sake Guliano, read the account. It's all in there.......Also, please reread my post you claim I have not replied to.

I just reread it and I still don't see a clear answer.

So where is Lazarus now? Did he die a second time? Is he dead now, waiting to be resurrected again?

because Lazarus is not subject to the second death.

That isn't helpful since it means he won't be thrown into the lake of fire.

The questions are answered but can you see them? .....if you can't, is the word 'ignorance' too strong?....maybe blindness is a better choice of word?

You say I am insulting you but you didn't read my words 'with respect' added in there for the very purpose of allaying your fears of disrespect ie, they are not intended as an insult.

Why think by using both, you can escape comment? That's like someone saying, "I don't mean to offend but. . . . " and then they say something they know or strongly suspect will be offensive. I think I may give up trying to understand your position on this.

 

[Giuliano]

Onward to another passage from the Bible that seems very peculiar to many. The way I understand it, I find it appropriate and amusing. It is about when the LORD wanted judgment to fall on King Ahab.

1 Kings 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

This should get your attention. What is spirit doing asking to act as a lying spirit in the mouth of all the prophets of Ahab in order to deceive him and to bring about his death?

The Jews say this was the spirit of Naboth. Do not think too unkindly of Naboth. I don't think he was seeking revenge in a personal way to gratify spite. No, it was something else: Here is the patience of the saints. Recall what John wrote about that?

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

You will recall, I'm sure, that Naboth's death was brought about by lies. Ahab was happy to have to have it so, glad to have a lying wife who knew how to finagle things to get him Naboth's vineyard. Well then, if Ahab was to reap what he had sown, it would be very just to have Naboth act as a lying spirit in order to remove this evil king from the earth.

God keeps careful records. Those who sin, and especially those who sin against a saint who is innocent in the matter, get black marks in God's books. If the sinner does not repent, God may decide it's better to remove him than to allow him to continue living -- and Gods' motive is Love since a truly abhorrent person can do great harm to many people. A ruler like Pharaoh who ordered babies killed needed to be taken out. God would not be loving if He permitted the guilty to offend against the innocent perpetually.

It is a wonderful thing then for the saints who have suffered unjustly in this world to be in Heaven ready to balance the scales of justice when God decides it is time to eradicate incorrigible evils.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

At first glance, this doesn't seem to make sense. It looks as if the saints are complaining about how they were killed and God says He'll avenge them after other people are killed. It starts to make more sense if we see God extending Mercy to some of the worst sinners, hoping to see them repent. Some do, some don't. It is up to God to judge when someone has crossed a line of being so incorrigible, it's more dangerous to let him live than to bring him to justice for his crimes against the innocent.

I do not think Naboth had a selfish motive for wanting to be a lying spirit. I think he wanted to stop Ahab who was a bad king.

 

[Brakelite]

@Giuliano you are still perpetuating that first sermon on the state of the dead by the devil... You shall not surely die. Jesus called him a liar from the beginning. I'm not so sure we should trust his declaration over other scriptures that declare otherwise. Not saying we know everything there is to know about death... But when scriptures say that the dead know nothing, and have nothing to do ever with anything more done under the sun, I think we need to understand the more confusing texts in light of those that aren't confusing, and not in light of Satan's lie.

 

[charity]

(1 Samuel 28)

Hello there,

It was the manifestation of a deceiving spirit impersonating Samuel, as done by mediums today.
Samuel's spirit was with God (Ecclesiastes 12:7). The medium says that Samuel wore a mantel, but Samuel would have been wearing grave-clothes, for his body was in the grave (John 11:44). As today the deceiving spirit speaks to and through the medium, and not directly. There is an example in 2 Chronicles 18:19-22, of God sending a lying spirit with a true message. However nothing that the medium claimed to have been spoken by Samuel was unknown, it was not new.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@Giuliano you are still perpetuating that first sermon on the state of the dead by the devil... You shall not surely die. Jesus called him a liar from the beginning. I'm not so sure we should trust his declaration over other scriptures that declare otherwise. Not saying we know everything there is to know about death... But when scriptures say that the dead know nothing, and have nothing to do ever with anything more done under the sun, I think we need to understand the more confusing texts in light of those that aren't confusing, and not in light of Satan's lie.

John 21:21-23 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do ? [22] Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me. [23] Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

 

[Truther]

It is not impossible for God to allow the spirit of a dead person to speak to someone. This was an anomaly and was directly spoken to the leader of God's people Israel. Don't expect it to occur again though. Jesus is now the leader, not a minister.

 

[Truther]

(1 Samuel 28)

Hello there,

It was the manifestation of a deceiving spirit impersonating Samuel, as done by mediums today.
Samuel's spirit was with God (Ecclesiastes 12:7). The medium says that Samuel wore a mantel, but Samuel would have been wearing grave-clothes, for his body was in the grave (John 11:44). As today the deceiving spirit speaks to and through the medium, and not directly. There is an example in 2 Chronicles 18:19-22, of God sending a lying spirit with a true message. However nothing that the medium claimed to have been spoken by Samuel was unknown, it was not new.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I this case Chris, I think it was actually the spirit of Samuel. He spoke a true prophecy to Saul, which came to pass.

 

[Truther]

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

17 And the Lord hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day.

19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

 

[Grailhunter]

@Giuliano you are still perpetuating that first sermon on the state of the dead by the devil... You shall not surely die. Jesus called him a liar from the beginning. I'm not so sure we should trust his declaration over other scriptures that declare otherwise. Not saying we know everything there is to know about death... But when scriptures say that the dead know nothing, and have nothing to do ever with anything more done under the sun, I think we need to understand the more confusing texts in light of those that aren't confusing, and not in light of Satan's lie.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

The authorship of Ecclesiastes is debated, but the author does identify himself as the son of King David. King David had 19 sons, so…that is as far as we can go with it.

What is for sure is that the Israelites had a limited understanding of the “spirit world” per say. More accurately they speculated on the parameters of Shoal. Christ proved this line of thinking incorrect when He talked to Moses and Elijah during the transfiguration and further debunked it when He said that His Father is the God of living not the dead.

Mark 12:24-27
Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God? For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven. But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken.”

The body dies, but the soul does not. Christ did not resurrect Moses and Elijah He called to them in Shoal. Samuel using a medium to talk to Saul can be condemned but she did not resurrect them either.

For those that God has taken in bodily form, Enoch and Elijah we do not have a lot of information on their status. Elijah was to return and announce the Messiah, so obviously God can use them to do His will. The Catholics believe that our blessed Mary (Miriam) was taken. As far as Christian history goes she makes up the vast majority of visitations, miracles and healings over a period of about 1955 years….thousands, of events and thousands of miracles. It would take nearly a lifetime of travel worldwide to visit all the shrines that commemorate her miracles.

In their hatred of the Catholics when the Protestants began to formulate their beliefs, roughly on the Bible, they chose to deny any Divine events that occurred between the close of the Bible and the rise of Protestantism. Of course some…most of the Protestant recognize miracles within their own denominations. And then of course the Catholics would turn around and do the same thing to the Protestants saying, how can true miracles occur within a heresy.

I say the Protestant formulated their beliefs roughly on the Bible because they do not agree. Which one of the 30,000 denominations have formulated their beliefs correctly, or even close. For multiple reasons both sides and all….live in glass houses. Catholic history is not entirely pretty to say the least and Protestants have produced a maze of confusion that has fractured the church.

So nothing or nobody is perfect and due respect for each other’s beliefs is probably the wisest choice.

 

[Giuliano]

@Giuliano you are still perpetuating that first sermon on the state of the dead by the devil... You shall not surely die. Jesus called him a liar from the beginning. I'm not so sure we should trust his declaration over other scriptures that declare otherwise. Not saying we know everything there is to know about death... But when scriptures say that the dead know nothing, and have nothing to do ever with anything more done under the sun, I think we need to understand the more confusing texts in light of those that aren't confusing, and not in light of Satan's lie.

Perhaps your teachers were dead and knew nothing at all. Adam and Eve died on the spot when they ate of the forbidden fruit. Death entered the world. They died that very day. In one way. They remained alive in two other ways -- body and soul. Their bodies died later. Was Adam mistaken when he called Eve the "mother of all living"?

You can see how they died by how they started speaking with "forked tongues." They were lying to God. They were blaming others with a satanic spirit of accusation. The Holy Spirit God had breathed into them had left. Thus they became mere "souls" like the animals rather than the "living souls" they became when God breathed. The promise in the New Testament is that those who receive the Holy Spirit will speak "with" "new tongues." Don't revise that to mean "in" "other languages." It means pure lips, pure tongues, etc. There may be some glossalia here and there -- but the pure lips is the thing.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

No man can tame that forked tongue that mixes truth and lies, blessings and curses. Only God can take care of it.

Jas 3:8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. . .
10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.
11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?

You misunderstand what "dead" means in the passage that says the dead know nothing. There are people walking around dead who know nothing. Let the dead bury the dead, eh? What will you be saying next, that Abraham is dead?

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

I can vouch for the accuracy of what Jesus said about Abraham. I've seen and talked with him. He isn't dead. He's alive and alert. So is Sarah. I wish you could see how Abraham's eyes sparkled with light.

What of this? People often fail to read enough of the passage. . . .

Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

Yes, who knows? The person who knows will repent and mend his ways. The person who trusts in God's Messiah will never die. His body may die, but his soul will not. He will have become a "living soul" the way Adam was made. Some may sleep but some do not.

 

[Giuliano]

(1 Samuel 28)

Hello there,

It was the manifestation of a deceiving spirit impersonating Samuel, as done by mediums today.
Samuel's spirit was with God (Ecclesiastes 12:7). The medium says that Samuel wore a mantel, but Samuel would have been wearing grave-clothes, for his body was in the grave (John 11:44). As today the deceiving spirit speaks to and through the medium, and not directly. There is an example in 2 Chronicles 18:19-22, of God sending a lying spirit with a true message. However nothing that the medium claimed to have been spoken by Samuel was unknown, it was not new.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

You think the soul is dressed the way the body is? I would think Samuel's physical body would have been dust by that point along with grave clothes. Moreover they were not at Samuel's grave.

 

[Berserk]

My thread "NDEs and ADCs: Their Evidential Value for Christian Apologetics" demonstrates with verifications that the dead can and do communicate with the living. Many atheists and agnostics have been born again through reflection on their near-death experiences or their after-death contacts. And I have found NDEs and ADCs an effective apologetic tool in witnessing to atheists and agnostics who otherwise dismiss Gospel resurrection accounts as later legends. Satan would not produce such an effective tool for evangelism. The evidence for the reality of NDEs and ADCs is far more superior to that for Jesus' resurrection and, for that very reason, minimizes the impact of the apparent inconsistencies in the Resurrection narrative by changing the presuppositional framework that skeptics bring to the Gospels.

1 Samuel 28:12, 15 makes it clear that the medium at Endor brought up the real Samuel. The Bible reinforces this point by adding, "Saul knew that it was Samuel (28:14)." Period! Moses dies, but is present with Jesus on the Transfiguration mount to discuss Jesus' mission (Luke 9:31). When Jesus dies, many deceased "saints" appear to residents in Jerusalem (Matthew 27:52-53). 2 dead saints, the high priest Onias III and Jeremiah appear to Judas Maccabaeus in a vision, praying for his army and promising him victory over the Greek army (2 Maccabees 15:1-16). "Not in my Bible," you say. Wrong! The military role of Jeremiah is revered by some of Jesus' followers (Matthew 16:14). Their mistake is their speculation that Jesus Himself is Jeremiah risen from the dead. In any case, the canonicity question is irrelevant to the fact that 1-2 Maccabees offer a history of what happened during the Jewish revolt against Greek rulers in the 2nd century BC.

Keep in mind the progressive revelation from OT to NT. Sheol is not a realm of postmortem, fully conscious survival and only in Daniel 12:1-3 does the OT teach life after death. So the Samuel story provides a glimpse of Christian revelation to come.

Jesus teaches that the deceased saints are alive (Mark 12:26-27) and never die (John 11:26). In the parable the rich man is fully conscious in his torment in Hades (Luke 16:19-31). Jesus comforts the penitent thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43)." The deceased martyrs in Revelation 6:9-10 are fully conscious and intercede with God for vindication and justice. Paul implies that dead believers are fully conscious:

"We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).
"'My desire is to depart and be with Christ; for that is far better (Philippians 1:23)."

 

[DNB]

Satan does not have the power to bring people out of Sheol (where Samuel was resting). In this particular case God allowed Samuel to come out of Sheol (ascending out of the earth) and go to Saul (in spite of the evil circumstances), and Samuel did have a prophetic message for Saul from God.

The witch of Endor herself was surprised at what happened, since she had planned to have an evil (familiar) spirit pretend that it was Samuel. Spiritism or Spiritualism is in fact evil spirits pretending to be dead loved ones. However in this case it was the spirit of Samuel that appeared to Saul.

Very well explained Enoch!
Although @quietthinker , you correctly addressed this issue at a fundamental level, that God does not collude with spiritists and mediums, and that Samuel was resigned to never consult with Saul ever again, all which are true facts, you overlooked the distinct peculiarities of the passage.
The witch was surprised and overwhelmed by what she seemingly had conjured up by her own power, and that the oracles of the spirit of Samuel were, first of all, correct, and secondly, unobtainable without divine inspiration and insight.
I believe what occurred here, was God exploiting a situation that had a nefarious intent behind it, and using it to first, affirm that it is only through Him that the fate of man can be determined, and secondly, to underscore the divine auspices that Samuel had ministered under and repudiated Saul with. God, in this distinctly unique and ignoble circumstance, intervened in an unprecedented manner to further denounce the reign of Saul.

This is somewhat analogous to the rebuke of Balaam by his donkey. One could argue, for example, that since animals are irrefutably not created in the image of God, they do not have the capacity to make such a reasonable or insightful remark, and therefore, Balaam through a guilty conscience, merely imagined the words spoken to him by his beast of burden.
You are arguing your case by the same restricted overview of the entire context.

 

[quietthinker]

So where is Lazarus now? Did he die a second time? Is he dead now, waiting to be resurrected again?

Lazarus is dead (asleep) awaiting the resurrection at Jesus return.

That isn't helpful since it means he won't be thrown into the lake of fire.

Your difficulty in understanding this is based on your eschatological view. It doesn't allow you to understand it. One could say you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole......it will not go.
And I will add, an accurate understanding of this doctrine (the state of the dead) has strings that pull on other understandings as well. Satan well knows if people believe his shifted sign posts the road of understanding will be skewed and his trickery easier to pull off.

Why think by using both, you can escape comment? That's like someone saying, "I don't mean to offend but. . . . " and then they say something they know or strongly suspect will be offensive. I think I may give up trying to understand your position on this.

Straight talk by its very nature has a high chance of offending.

 

[Berserk]

Giuliano,

Notice how quietthinker and his ilk conveniently duck the decisive refutation of his soul sleep position in post #35, a post that merely expresses the scholarly consensus on this issue of which your critics are oblivious.

 

[bbyrd009]

yet you cannot Quote a "Return" hmm

Uh, the Bible says it was Samuel. It was a "part" of Samuel that should have permitted to rest until the resurrection.

dunno about the resurrection part, but the Bible does say "Samuel," when that would have been the place to deny that eh
also, the religious professors (apparently to a man) choose to deny that it was Samuel, so that should be considered imo

 

[DNB]

Giuliano,

Notice how quietthinker and his ilk conveniently duck the decisive refutation of his soul sleep position in post #35, a post that merely expresses the scholarly consensus on this issue of which your critics are oblivious.

Well sorry Berserk, I wouldn't be so to quick to consider your position or proof-text as irrefutable? Although I believe that God did raise Samuel for this one special and unique occasion, I believe that Samuel went straight back to grave right after his brief disturbance, to remain dormant until the return of Christ, as is the state of every human that has ever died.

First of all, the quintessential passage on this issue is 1 Thess. 4:13-18. i.e. fundamentally speaking, no one is judged before Judgement Day.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
4:13. But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Secondly, although hypothetically, one can argue that NDEs could have an evangelical influence on unbelievers, if one ever bothered to pay attention to the anti-biblical nonsense that seems to invariably proceed from the recipients of these alleged experiences, it would entirely preclude the viability of such a defense for soul-awake, or even evangelism. How could you buy into such overt idiocracies?

Jesus teaches that the deceased saints are alive (Mark 12:26-27) and never die (John 11:26).
That's entirely interpretive, Jesus is merely acknowledging the fact that one day, they will rise, which was in direct contrast to the Sadducees convictions, and in context to their inquiry.

In the parable the rich man is fully conscious in his torment in Hades (Luke 16:19-31).
Berserk, you don't know an allegory when you hear one? Especially one that is entirely logistically implausible, and entirely out of context to the point that Jesus was making - no excuses to refuse Christ.

Jesus comforts the penitent thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in Paradise (Luke 23:43)."
Berserk, are you unable to understand context? Jesus was talking faith over works. A man tried and convicted for a capital crime, will enter heaven before the self-righteous and seemingly devout will - those that had condemned him.
Plus, and more obviously, Jesus himself was not in paradise that day - 3 days in the grave, 40 days alive until his ascension.