Can you be pro-choice and still be a Christian?

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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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Secondly, while God has gifted man the ability to come together and form governments, the glory of God is seen in man's governance. When unjust laws are enacted, laws that are contrary to God's nature, there is no righteousness in command decision that uphold unjust laws that bring no glory to God because those unjust laws are anathema. For example: Art. I, Section 2(3) of the U.S. Const., Jim Crow, separate but equal, anti-miscegenation laws, abortion, homosexual marriage, banning prayer in public, banning Christian displays in public, recognizing transgender rights, etc, etc, etc.

No, you are making unfounded assumptions not supported by scripture.

Whereas some it the items you listed DO fall under the legitimate header of laws contrary to the law of God- all of them do not.

On this specific issue only, There are times and circumstances where decisions must be made under God's own allowance will cover the abortion of a child.

Numbers 5:11 story is one example of "illegitimate" ( regardless of method of delivery)
Deut 24:16 has been used to justify saving the mother over the child for over a century.

So, yes Children are innocent and they are a gift from God and the taking of such a life has the highest possible bar and legitimate requirement ( remember, "murder" is the UNJUST act of taking a life, not just the taking) but there are such bars.
 

LTJMP14

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No, you are making unfounded assumptions not supported by scripture.

Whereas some it the items you listed DO fall under the legitimate header of laws contrary to the law of God- all of them do not.

On this specific issue only, There are times and circumstances where decisions must be made under God's own allowance will cover the abortion of a child.

Numbers 5:11 story is one example of "illegitimate" ( regardless of method of delivery)
Deut 24:16 has been used to justify saving the mother over the child for over a century.

So, yes Children are innocent and they are a gift from God and the taking of such a life has the highest possible bar and legitimate requirement ( remember, "murder" is the UNJUST act of taking a life, not just the taking) but there are such bars.

The punishment for killing varies based on the intent of the killer, not only in man's law, but in God's word as well. In God's word, in the Mosaic law, death was the penalty for the unwarranted intentional killing (murder) of another. No trial was necessary, and judgment was swift.

There is no justification whatever in God's word for the murder of an innocent human being in the womb. None. When others say it's alright to kill the baby to save the mother, that shows just how depraved human nature is. We all will one day die. Those pregnant mothers have lived and have sinned while they lived. Are they saved? If yes, then they know this is not their permanent home.

I knew of a woman that had cancer, detected when her child was 6 months in the womb. The only chance at survival for the mom was to begin treatment immediately. To do so would mean certain death for her unborn child. She chose the life of her daughter, and in the end sacrificed her own life so that her daughter could have life. Her non-saved friends all encouraged her to abort, but she was true to her faith, true to what Jesus taught: there is no greater love than a man lay down his life for his friends.
 
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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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The punishment for killing varies based on the intent of the killer, not only in man's law, but in God's word as well. In God's word, in the Mosaic law, death was the penalty for the unwarranted intentional killing (murder) of another. No trial was necessary, and judgment was swift.

As usual, you are wrong in context and understanding- to administer the death penalty it required the testimony of 2 righteous men ( which references the command to not bear false witness)

There is no justification whatever in God's word for the murder of an innocent human being in the womb. None. When others say it's alright to kill the baby to save the mother, that shows just how depraved human nature is. We all will one day die. Those pregnant mothers have lived and have sinned while they lived. Are they saved? If yes, then they know this is not their permanent home.

There is justification- just not in your "opinion" ( which you have the right to have but it is of no force) and hiding behind the word "murder" ( which is specifically UNJUST)

You might want to read up on some of Hosea (chapters 13 & 19) too. You have much to learn.
 

LTJMP14

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As usual, you are wrong in context and understanding- to administer the death penalty it required the testimony of 2 righteous men ( which references the command to not bear false witness)



There is justification- just not in your "opinion" ( which you have the right to have but it is of no force) and hiding behind the word "murder" ( which is specifically UNJUST)

You might want to read up on some of Hosea (chapters 13 & 19) too. You have much to learn.

Of course witnesses were required. I didn't miss that because it's understood to those of us that know. Perhaps you didn't know and had to look it up.

Miscarriage? Seriously? Hosea has nothing to do with murder of humans in the womb. God is creator of life: HE gives and HE takes at HIS sovereign pleasure. You don't like that, do you. You want to play God. If God causes a miscarriage, it's not an abortion. Abortion is man's invention at playing God. Yours is a poor attempt at justifying murder. Very poor attempt. Because bottom line: abortion is murder.
 

Wynona

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Can anyone take their views, answer my original question, and back them with Scripture?

For me personally, if someone can use Scriptures to back up their argument, it holds a lot of sway.

I know the Bible says that the way to eternal life is narrow and many more people are on the broad path.

But I also know that my worldview as it is now took a bit of time to develop after I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

I personally don't believe that accepting Jesus means we can live however we want. Lawlessness will end us into hell.

But I do wonder if our beliefs have to be biblical for us to really be Christian or if there are Christians who are simply not as developed in their worldview who are still saved.
 
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Grailhunter

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The punishment for killing varies based on the intent of the killer, not only in man's law, but in God's word as well. In God's word, in the Mosaic law, death was the penalty for the unwarranted intentional killing (murder) of another. No trial was necessary, and judgment was swift.

There is no justification whatever in God's word for the murder of an innocent human being in the womb. None. When others say it's alright to kill the baby to save the mother, that shows just how depraved human nature is. We all will one day die. Those pregnant mothers have lived and have sinned while they lived. Are they saved? If yes, then they know this is not their permanent home.

I knew of a woman that had cancer, detected when her child was 6 months in the womb. The only chance at survival for the mom was to begin treatment immediately. To do so would mean certain death for her unborn child. She chose the life of her daughter, and in the end sacrificed her own life so that her daughter could have life. Her non-saved friends all encouraged her to abort, but she was true to her faith, true to what Jesus taught: there is no greater love than a man lay down his life for his friends.

Agreed. Part of being a Christian is the respect for life. This is part of the American way, the values and morals that made this country great. All the things that the cancel culture and the new social denominations want to destroy.

I keep warning about the left coming up with their own language...ie progressive mean march towards communism. Abortion is not really a term you use for humans. It is a word used to soften what you are actually doing. The process so horrific that you cannot show it on this forum or even television or movies...

Our brains work on words and experiences. The people that want to murder babies do not want to call it murder, they do not want it shown for what it really is. Abortion sound less offensive than murder or killing, and then there is the attempt to reclassify babies as non-human. Using the word abortion also distorts the reasoning of the facts, there is room for opinion on the facts of killing a baby. And that reasoning needs to be made at that serious level. You are choosing to kill, not choosing to abort. If you terminate a pregnancy, you have killed a human being....period!

Now is there any possible reason for killing a baby?
Rape...incest...two wrongs make a right?
A woman's health....if she is that sick....maybe she should not be having sex? Because sex can make you pregnant? We live in an age where people do not want to accept responsibility for their actions, so killing a baby is the way out? Really?
I imagine that there are circumstances that you would have to pick between the mother and the child. I don't think it happens very often. I have only heard of one such story...and that was under very odd circumstance that involved a doctor coming up on a car accident out in a rural area. A pregnant woman was severally injured and was about to die. The doctor had a choice to remove the woman and take her to the hospital, but she would die on the way or he could perform a cesarean and remove the baby, which she would probably die in the process, and she did die. If he would not have made the choice, they both would have died. Opinions will vary as to if he made the right choice. But this type of scenario is so rare that it is really not part of the discussion.

There maybe times when a woman becomes sick and can not carry the baby to term...well now a days a baby can be taken pretty early and still survive....if it is within a couple months of her being pregnancy then you get into the few cases that many try to argue are the most cases....any sign of trouble kill the baby....Ya I do not buy it.

Either way abortion is killing an innocent.
 

LTJMP14

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Can anyone take their views, answer my original question, and back them with Scripture?

For me personally, if someone can use Scriptures to back up their argument, it holds a lot of sway.

I know the Bible says that the way to eternal life is narrow and many more people are on the broad path.

But I also know that my worldview as it is now took a bit of time to develop after I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Saviour.

I personally don't believe that accepting Jesus means we can live however we want. Lawlessness will end us into hell.

But I do wonder if our beliefs have to be biblical for us to really be Christian or if there are Christians who are simply not as developed in their worldview who are still saved.
Jesus said the greatest commandments were to love God and love others, and there is no greater gift than one lay down their life for their friend. How can one say they love when they support murder. One can't: it's a contradiction.
 
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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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Of course witnesses were required. I didn't miss that because it's understood to those of us that know. Perhaps you didn't know and had to look it up.

No, you are just trying to weasel your way out of another obvious error.

God is creator of life: HE gives and HE takes at HIS sovereign pleasure. You don't like that, do you. You want to play God. If God causes a miscarriage, it's not an abortion.

I guess you missed that part where God binds Himself to His word and you are trying to twist scripture to fit your worldview now.

You are just emotionalizing it in hopes that it changes the facts which it does not
 

Grailhunter

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Can anyone take their views, answer my original question, and back them with Scripture?
I am sure you know that there are scriptures about not murdering people. No one needs to quote you that. And as far as killing babies in the Bible...the topic would have been so horrendously evil that it was not discussed. Can you imagine how the discussion would be worded?

But I do wonder if our beliefs have to be biblical for us to really be Christian
I have already answered this. Salvation...belief, repentance, baptism, and the bread and wine ritual...some argue these processes that are spoke of in the Bible...but biblical morals...that is a modern question...a social attempt to modify Christianity.
If you were standing with the Apostles and asked them that, what do you think they would say? Immoral Christians will be judged by Christ. Is there any reason to expect that all manner of evil will be rewarded with heaven? That heaven would be full of evil. Where would all the good people and God go?
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

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I am sure you know that there are scriptures about not murdering people. No one needs to quote you that. And as far as killing babies in the Bible...the topic would have been so horrendously evil that it was not discussed. Can you imagine how the discussion would be worded?

So, somehow you know what God thought was appropriate to put in Scripture? That ended any credibility you may have thought you ever had.

I have already answered this. Salvation...belief, repentance, baptism, and the bread and wine ritual...some argue these processes that are spoke of in the Bible...but biblical morals...that is a modern question...a social attempt to modify Christianity.

Ahh, New Age

If you were standing with the Apostles and asked them that, what do you think they would say?

What would they say? How do you know?

Immoral Christians will be judged by Christ. Is there any reason to expect that all manner of evil to be rewarded with heaven? That heaven would be full of evil. Where would all the good people and God go?

Actually there will be some Christians who get in "with the smoke curling from their backs" ( but they get in)

What are 'good people"?
 

Wynona

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I am sure you know that there are scriptures about not murdering people. No one needs to quote you that. And as far as killing babies in the Bible...the topic would have been so horrendously evil that it was not discussed. Can you imagine how the discussion would be worded?


I have already answered this. Salvation...belief, repentance, baptism, and the bread and wine ritual...some argue these processes that are spoke of in the Bible...but biblical morals...that is a modern question...a social attempt to modify Christianity.
If you were standing with the Apostles and asked them that, what do you think they would say? Immoral Christians will be judged by Christ. Is there any reason to expect that all manner of evil will be rewarded with heaven? That heaven would be full of evil. Where would all the good people and God go?

Im not asking for biblical support on whether killing babies is wrong.

In Jeremiah it talks about how the Israelites were sacrificing children and the Lord said He never commanded that nor had it ever entered his heart.

I also agree that heaven won't be full of evil people.

I just want to be careful before I condemn someone as unsaved. Im inclined to think that no real Christian would support abortion and to agree with you.

What makes me hesitate are the Christians who think pro-choice is somehow a good thing or supporting women. I disagree should I judge them as not having a relationship with Christ because they're unbiblical in their beliefs?

To you, this may be obvious but to me it gives me pause. That's why I asked for Scripture.

Scripture calls for righteous action. But what about right belief? Does having the wrong belief make you unsaved?

This isn't obvious to me. Scripture would help clarify things. Im not trying to be difficult, I really just am trying to not go outside of Scripture.
 

marks

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What makes me hesitate are the Christians who think pro-choice is somehow a good thing or supporting women. I disagree should I judge them as not having a relationship with Christ because they're unbiblical in their beliefs?
I know women who are Christian - very much so - and who remain conflicted over this issue. I know it's not for me to judge, and others feel quite comfortable to nurse hatreds, and we don't judge that the same, but Jesus does. There are women to abort babies out of the passions of desparation and fear, while those who hate may do so coldly in arrogance, who are we to say anything?

We are all works in progress, and just because I lag in this way, and someone else lags in a different way, so what? Love is patient, hopes all things, endures all things.

Much love!
 
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Grailhunter

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I just want to be careful before I condemn someone as unsaved. Im inclined to think that no real Christian would support abortion and to agree with you.

What makes me hesitate are the Christians who think pro-choice is somehow a good thing or supporting women. I disagree should I judge them as not having a relationship with Christ because they're unbiblical in their beliefs?

Here is the deal, a Christian is a Christian...we are all going to sin. We are not going to lose our salvation...but...the day we are saved is not Judgment Day....Judgment Day is the day that Christ will judge us to heaven or hell. The Bible says that we all will stand before him and our deeds will be judged.

It is not in our paygrade to judge others....condemn the sin not the sinner....we can council Christians...the Bible speaks of that.

As far as judging we do not and cannot know all the details so that judgment is up to Christ. Most of us are going to arrive on Judgment Day with few sins to be judged...we repent...ask forgiveness .... Christ is faithful to forgive us and it is forgotten. The danger are those sins that cannot be repented....you cannot repent of something you intend to keep doing...so it is lifestyle sins that are the most damning.

Are there sins that cannot be forgiven?...that is up to Christ.

Christians, men and women should be responsible. The outcry of abortion to be linked to women's rights is absurd. Women deserve the right to have control of the reproductive process!...yes they do...don't have sex if you do not want a baby! What is the alternative, murdering babies as a form of birth control! OMG What level of evil does that reasoning come from?

Men are in this too. Don't have sex with a woman unless you are in love with her! We are not animals!
 

Grailhunter

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I know women who are Christian - very much so - and who remain conflicted over this issue. I know it's not for me to judge, and others feel quite comfortable to nurse hatreds, and we don't judge that the same, but Jesus does. There are women to abort babies out of the passions of desparation and fear, while those who hate may do so coldly in arrogance, who are we to say anything?

We are all works in progress, and just because I lag in this way, and someone else lags in a different way, so what? Love is patient, hopes all things, endures all things.

Much love!

Well it is OSAS!...the modern doctrine from hell. If you believe in Christ you can molest children and eat them and you are still guaranteed to go to heaven. For the rest of us we are suppose to be tolerant, patient, and endure them....If your neighbor that is cooking your kid comes over and ask for a bottle of barbeque sauce....are you going to give it to him? Run and get that barbeque sauce for him....because you are patient.
 
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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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If you believe in Christ you can molest children and eat them and you are still guaranteed to go to heaven.

That's a false dichotomy. Satan "believes" but is not saved. Salvation requires admission of being a sinner and accepting full responsibility and repentance (changed mind) and a "new person" (born again)

Christians sin with the best of them (and commit major ones) but salvation is not a license to sin nor will God allow those sins to go unpunished in whatever way he chooses. That said, none of those sins ( talking about a legitimate Believer here) will remove the salvation.

That's the fundamental and fatal flaw and defective reasoning of the loss of salvation crowd- they think Jesus "missed one" when he died on the cross. They cannot comprehend ( or simply refuse to) the simple concept that a converted believer is still the same failed human he was before but THROUGH CHRIST is a new creation and thus forgiven and redeemed.

Man couldn't be "good enough" to earn salvation in the first case (much less maintain it if he ever did) which is why Jesus was the sacrifice. It is foolish to think he could "keep it" after he was "saved". He simply couldn't and ANY sin ( doesn't have to be murder or any type of capital or injurious sin) is intolerable to God (in terms of salvation specifically) so if salvation loss was possible then even a little "sin" of omission we might even overlook would do it just as well as if it were a bank robbery.

"ALL" minus even 1 becomes "almost" and Jesus didn't die for "almost" all sin or just for this specific category. ( excluding BOTHS but that's a separate discussion)
 
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DPMartin

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You mean, a true believer supposedly thus loses salvation? or that salvation in the first place is supposedly by faith PLUS having the "correct" view of political campaigns about abortion? :rolleyes:

just because a society wants to turn a subject that is a moral matter according to the God of Christians, into a political fight, doesn't make it a salvation issue. men make things political. and its just people of political influence trying to justify to gov or gov justifying to the public something that wasn't legal before, and you should be smart enough to know there's nothing of interest to anyone influential in free societies unless there's money in it. basically a born again isn't supposed to have views on things like this, they are supposed to agree with the Lord their God who has already said something on the matter.

see, your secular, or atheist views of reason is greater then all, especially what God says, doesn't work in the Kingdom of God.
 

farouk

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just because a society wants to turn a subject that is a moral matter according to the God of Christians, into a political fight, doesn't make it a salvation issue. men make things political. and its just people of political influence trying to justify to gov or gov justifying to the public something that wasn't legal before, and you should be smart enough to know there's nothing of interest to anyone influential in free societies unless there's money in it. basically a born again isn't supposed to have views on things like this, they are supposed to agree with the Lord their God who has already said something on the matter.

see, your secular, or atheist views of reason is greater then all, especially what God says, doesn't work in the Kingdom of God.
Seeing as I am not arguing for abortion in the first place, I am baffled with your highlighted comment...
 

amadeus

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Im not asking for biblical support on whether killing babies is wrong.

In Jeremiah it talks about how the Israelites were sacrificing children and the Lord said He never commanded that nor had it ever entered his heart.

I also agree that heaven won't be full of evil people.

I just want to be careful before I condemn someone as unsaved. Im inclined to think that no real Christian would support abortion and to agree with you.

What makes me hesitate are the Christians who think pro-choice is somehow a good thing or supporting women. I disagree should I judge them as not having a relationship with Christ because they're unbiblical in their beliefs?

To you, this may be obvious but to me it gives me pause. That's why I asked for Scripture.

Scripture calls for righteous action. But what about right belief? Does having the wrong belief make you unsaved?

This isn't obvious to me. Scripture would help clarify things. Im not trying to be difficult, I really just am trying to not go outside of Scripture.
Follow the lead of the Holy Spirit in every real case. Do not try to find black and white rules, even according to the Bible as you read or understand it, that will always apply.

In most cases abortion, I believe, will be wrong and the Holy Spirit, I believe, will lead us that way... but there may be reasons why God would lead us another way. Don't tempt God by insisting on finding absolute rules. God knows so follow Him!

Consider how He told Hosea, a man of God, to marry a prostitute. That surely seems to be in opposition to what Paul was inspired to write here:

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" II Cor 6:14

Don't question God. Obey Him even when you may not understand the "why" of it! Remember the early Moses when he tried to convince God to send someone else to the children of Israel in bondage in Egypt?

Has God ever changed? No, according to my understanding He has not, but who among knows all there is to know about God and His Word? We do still see through a glass darkly!

"For I am the LORD, I change not..." Mal 3:6

"But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Rom 8:11-14

"Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19