Can you be pro-choice and still be a Christian?

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Just because God didn't provide a detailed account, doesn't mean it didn't happen. And of course we all know that an argument based on silence is not worth considering.

God expects us to study and learn thats why He didn't author Scripture like an Army Field manual with step-by-step instructions

You should try that sometime

 

[Stan B]

You cannot possibly so uneducated as to confuse an abortion ( medical procedure with a deliberate intent) with a miscarriage (a biological function) can you?

Abortion and miscarriage are both the same word in the Hebrew. They both refer to a fetus being expelled from the womb.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Abortion and miscarriage are both the same word in the Hebrew. They both refer to a fetus being expelled from the womb.

context is key. The term "abortion" being used as the baseline here is the medical procedure of the last century or 2- it has no direct translation in Hebrew from that period.

Pay attention and learn but most of all, THINK

 

[Grailhunter]

@Stan B
You and I have went round and round about this before. Abortion marrying young girls...you are living in the Old Testament.
It is not only that the 613 Mosaic Laws that do not pertain to Christians....it is the spirit of the law that is cruel and unfair. We are Christians not Jews. The law governed many thing that are not Christian.
We do not treat women as property.
We do not pick who are daughters marry and do not sell them into marriage.
We do not sell our daughters to be sex slaves....concubinage.
We do not take multiple wives.
We do not kill all that breaths except the virgins to take as concubines. To rape the rest of their lives.

The Mosaic Laws governed these things and they are no part of Christianity...Even parts of Genesis is not relevant to Christianity. The curse of Eve say her husband would rule over her....nope

Christians value life as a precious gift of God. It take an evil mind to justify the murder of babies...through the Bible.

 

[Grailhunter]

No no no LOL
Abortion is not the same word as miscarriage in Hebrew. LOL Were do you get this stuff. Miscarriage is a natural occurrence. A live birth miscarriage is called a delivery. LOL

Abortion is an intent to end a pregnancy that results in the death of the baby.

Now a will add that in modern times some abortions are live births and which case they keep the head in the mother, for legal reasons, while they suck the brains out. Ya Christian AHH!

 

[Paul Christensen]

Can you support pro-choice and abortion and still be a Christian?

I would say that its possible to be a Christian who is saved and be severely wrong on worldview issues. But I could be wrong.

There are a lot of Christians who don't have biblical values. Are all of them not saved?

If not, please explain. I realize the road is narrow but isn't salvation based on the belief in the salvation of Christ and His Lordship and not on having the correct worldview?

I believe abortion is a grave sin, one of the defining moral issues of our time. But I think its possible for someone to hold the wrong view but they simply haven't developed a biblical worldview and be ignorant of its importance.

What do you think?

Those who support acts of sin are partaking in those sins, and therefore accessories. This means that God sees them as sinning and unless they repent and stop supporting abortion, they will perish in the same way that those who actually have abortions and those medical professionals who conduct them. Abortion is baby murder, and the Scripture says that those who murder will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[teamventure]

You said it Paul, supporting sin is living in willful sin.

 

[Truth7t7]

Those who support acts of sin are partaking in those sins, and therefore accessories. This means that God sees them as sinning and unless they repent and stop supporting abortion, they will perish in the same way that those who actually have abortions and those medical professionals who conduct them. Abortion is baby murder, and the Scripture says that those who murder will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Amen!

 

[2ndRateMind]

So you don't think a fetus is a life because Adam was dust until God breathed life into Him?

At what point does the fetus become a life, in your opinion? Does God just wait to give the fetus a soul till the moment it comes out of the womb?

God has authority to give and take life. We don't have the same level of authority that God has.

These are all good questions. There seem to be three significant dates. These are, in order, a) the date of conception, b) the date of viability c) the date of birth. My own feeling is that 'ensoulment', the date of humanity being installed on a foetus, happens at conception. But some believe it occurs at the date of viability; the date the foetus can survive independently of his/her mother.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Stan B]

You cannot possibly so uneducated as to confuse an abortion ( medical procedure with a deliberate intent) with a miscarriage (a biological function) can you?

Abortion only has one meaning: A fetus expelled from the womb before it is born.

 

[Truth7t7]

Abortion only has one meaning: A fetus expelled from the womb before it is born.

Your Claim Is "Error"

More Like, Voluntary Premeditated 1st Degree Murder

Dictionary.com
abortion
[ uh-bawr-shuhn ]

noun
Also called voluntary abortion. the removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.

 

[Stan B]

These are all good questions. There seem to be three significant dates. These are, in order, a) the date of conception, b) the date of viability c) the date of birth. My own feeling is that 'ensoulment', the date of humanity being installed on a foetus, happens at conception. But some believe it occurs at the date of viability; the date the foetus can survive independently of his/her mother.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Thank you for what you “feel”, conspicuously lack in the tiniest modicum of Scriptural references. I have provided a number of Scriptural references to God’s feelings
on the matter in #281.

So . . Whose feelings do do you figure are more reliable? Yours or God’s ?

Your Claim Is "Error"

More Like, Voluntary Premeditated 1st Degree Murder

Dictionary.com
abortion
[ uh-bawr-shuhn ]

noun
Also called voluntary abortion. the removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.

 

[Truth7t7]

But since a fetus does not have life, it cannot be murdered. You can't murder something that has never been alive.

>>However, why do you believe that abortion is okay?

I have made no comments about my personal feelings regarding abortion. I have restricted my comments to what the Bible says about abortion, and it says nothing. So if God doesn't think it was important enough to mention, then it is not my place to attempt to cover for God because He goofed up on that one.

And God answered Hoseas's prayer to smite the Tribe of Ephraim: Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

"16 Ephraim is stricken, their root is dried up,
They will bear no fruit.
Even though they bear children,
I will slay the precious ones of their womb.
17 My God will cast them away
Because they have not listened to Him;"

God totally annihilated the entire Tribe of Ephraim with abortions.

So if abortion is evil, then God must be the most evil entity in the universe!

Your claim that a fetus isnt a living human until it takes its first breath is morbid in my opinion

Your post could be the playbook for the Godless liberals in their infanticide, abortion right up to actual birth "Evil"

Abortion is pre-mediatated murder in the first degree

Hebrews 10:31KJV
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Psalm 139:13-14KJV
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

 

[Stan B]

The final arbiter of the meaning of a word is the Oxford Dictionary within the Legal System:

The act of giving untimely birth to offspring, premature delivery, miscarriage; the procuring of premature delivery so as to destroy offspring.

(In Medicine. abortion is limited to a delivery so premature that the offspring cannot live, i.e. in the case of the human fœtus before the sixth month.)

It cannot be murder, since a fetus is is not a living being as defined by Scripture, and you deny the truth of Scripture, and have chosen to replace Scripture with your personal anti-Scripture thoughts and feelings, you have nothing of interest to say to me. I am only interested in what God has to say. Bye bye.

 

[Truth7t7]

The final arbiter of the meaning of a word is the Oxford Dictionary within the Legal System:

The act of giving untimely birth to offspring, premature delivery, miscarriage; the procuring of premature delivery so as to destroy offspring.

(In Medicine. abortion is limited to a delivery so premature that the offspring cannot live, i.e. in the case of the human fœtus before the sixth month.)

It cannot be murder, since a fetus is is not a living being as defined by Scripture, and you deny the truth of Scripture, and have chosen to replace Scripture with your personal anti-Scripture thoughts and feelings, you have nothing of interest to say to me. I am only interested in what God has to say. Bye bye.

Hebrews 10:31KJV
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Exodus 20:13KJV
13 Thou shalt not kill.

Jeremiah 1:5KJV
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Jeremiah 20:17KJV
17 Because he slew me not from the womb; or that my mother might have been my grave, and her womb to be always great with me.

Psalm 139:13-14KJV
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Job 31:15KJV
15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?

 

[2ndRateMind]

Thank you for what you “feel”, conspicuously lack in the tiniest modicum of Scriptural references. I have provided a number of Scriptural references to God’s feelings
on the matter in #281.

So . . Whose feelings do do you figure are more reliable? Yours or God’s ?

Ah well, God knows the answer to the above question regarding the date of ensoulment. I don't, and I can only go by such evidence as I have. So I use phrases like 'I feel that' or 'I tend to the view that' or 'I'm inclined to the opinion that' to signpost when I just don't have a precise knowledge.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[charity]

'He came to His own,
.. and His own received Him not.
.... But as many as received Him,
...... He gave to them authority to become the children of God,
........ to those who believe on His name,
who were born,
.. not of bloods,
.... nor of the will of the flesh,
...... nor of the will of man,
........ but were born of God.
And the Word became flesh,
.. and tabernacled among us.
.... And we beheld His glory,
...... the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,
........ full of grace and of truth.'
(John 1:11-14)

Hello there, @Wynona,

When the subject of abortion comes up, my mind always goes to the words of verse 13 in the reading above: which identifies those born from above, by the Spirit of God, ( ie., the children of God ) and those born of the flesh, by saying, 'who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. ''

'not of bloods'
'nor of the will of the flesh,'
'nor of the will of man'

I find these factors interesting, and the predominant point is that a child is born by the, 'WILL,' of those whose union in the flesh produce it. In the case of rape, the will of the woman is denied expression, and the will of the perpetrator of that crime is not to produce offspring, but to satisfy his own lust. Also in the case of an act of mutual sexual gratification on behalf of two individuals, again the will of both is not to produce offspring, but to gratify a basic need.

The introduction of, 'The Will,' brings responsibility, and accountability to what is otherwise an action born of mindlessness and lust driven desire. How important it is to think through the implications of our actions before contemplating engaging in them. The sexual act should be the consummation of the love expressed between two individuals, who are committed to one another and in a position to provide for the resulting outcome. It should be an act of will that brings forth a child, and not mindless self-gratification.

I believe that this should be expressed as part of an open and thought provoking discussion between young people and their peers, to impress upon them the need to take responsibility and engage their 'will' and 'reason' when contemplating an action which has the potential to make or mar not only the lives of those partaking of it, but the life of the one who is born into the world as a result.

How this influences the discussion I don't know, but I felt the need to express it.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[2ndRateMind]

'He came to His own,
.. and His own received Him not.
.... But as many as received Him,
...... He gave to them authority to become the children of God,
........ to those who believe on His name,
who were born,
.. not of bloods,
.... nor of the will of the flesh,
...... nor of the will of man,
........ but were born of God.
And the Word became flesh,
.. and tabernacled among us.
.... And we beheld His glory,
...... the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,
........ full of grace and of truth.'
(John 1:11-14)

Hello there, @Wynona,

When the subject of abortion comes up, my mind always goes to the words of verse 13 in the reading above: which identifies those born from above, by the Spirit of God, ( ie., the children of God ) and those born of the flesh, by saying, 'who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God. ''

'not of bloods'
'nor of the will of the flesh,'
'nor of the will of man'

I find these factors interesting, and the predominant point is that a child is born by the, 'WILL,' of those whose union in the flesh produce it. In the case of rape, the will of the woman is denied expression, and the will of the perpetrator of that crime is not to produce offspring, but to satisfy his own lust. Also in the case of an act of mutual sexual gratification on behalf of two individuals, again the will of both is not to produce offspring, but to gratify a basic need.

The introduction of, 'The Will,' brings responsibility, and accountability to what is otherwise an action born of mindlessness and lust driven desire. How important it is to think through the implications of our actions before contemplating engaging in them. The sexual act should be the consummation of the love expressed between two individuals, who are committed to one another and in a position to provide for the resulting outcome. It should be an act of will that brings forth a child, and not mindless self-gratification.

I believe that this should be expressed as part of an open and thought provoking discussion between young people and their peers, to impress upon them the need to take responsibility and engage their 'will' and 'reason' when contemplating an action which has the potential to make or mar not only the lives of those partaking of it, but the life of the one who is born into the world as a result.

How this influences the discussion I don't know, but I felt the need to express it.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

So would it be your contention, then, that those foetuses produced as a result of lust may be aborted, and those born by the Spirit of God may not? And if so, how are we to tell the difference?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[charity]

So would it be your contention, then, that those foetuses produced as a result of lust may be aborted, and those born by the Spirit of God may not? And if so, how are we to tell the difference?

Best wishes, 2RM.

Hi @2RM,

No. I do not believe in abortion: except in extreme medical circumstances; where there is risk to life for the Mother and child.

Thank you
Within the love of Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified,
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[charity]

These are all good questions. There seem to be three significant dates. These are, in order, a) the date of conception, b) the date of viability c) the date of birth. My own feeling is that 'ensoulment', the date of humanity being installed on a foetus, happens at conception. But some believe it occurs at the date of viability; the date the foetus can survive independently of his/her mother.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Hello @2ndRateMind,

'In-soul-ment', interesting word! One of your own coining, yes?

Man became a living soul (ie., a whole person) when the breath of life was breathed into his nostrils. For it was the breath of life (or 'spirit') that brought life. A feotus cannot survive without it's mother, if prematurely delivered, without some medical intervention surely. Some life support?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris