Can you be pro-choice and still be a Christian?

[Stan B]

This one comes to mind first.
Psalm 139:13
New International Version

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

He was a life before he left the womb.

There's also the verse where we get the idea that murder is wrong.

Exodus 20:13
King James Version

13 Thou shalt not kill.

To me, the outcome of being anti-abortion is simple just from those two verses.

Other verses include Matthew 19:18, Psalm 22:10, and Psalm 71:6

I feel like if those verses are not enough, there simply is no convincing you--- you will think what you want.

However, why do you believe that abortion is okay?

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

>He was a life before he left the womb

While in the womb, he was still being knit together, just like when God created Adam, he wasn't a living being until all the parts were in place.

“The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath/spirit of life, and the man became a living being”
Genesis 2:7).

Adam did not become a living being until God breathed His Spirit, the Spirit of life into Adam. As James 2:6 says "the body apart from the spirit is dead . . " The body alone is dead. It is when God breathes into that body, his spirit is the last to be created to make man a living being.

The body of man is just dust. When man dies, "Man's body returns to the dust from whence it came; And the spirit returns to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

Paul comments on this as well, reaffirming the unimportance of the body: "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven" 2 Corinthians 5:1-2

Job confirms this as well:
“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay.
The Spirit of God has made me,
the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

There are many other similar declarations in Scripture. A fetus is not alive until it is born, a the breath of God gives it life.

>>13 Thou shalt not kill.
To me, the outcome of being anti-abortion is simple just from those two verses.

That's a bad translation which incorrectly addresses the menu for my Thanksgiving turkey dinner. It says "Thou shalt not murder", i.e. the unlawful taking of life. But since a fetus does not have life, it cannot be murdered. You can't murder something that has never been alive.

>>However, why do you believe that abortion is okay?

I have made no comments about my personal feelings regarding abortion. I have restricted my comments to what the Bible says about abortion, and it says nothing. So if God doesn't think it was important enough to mention, then it is not my place to attempt to cover for God because He goofed up on that one.

And God answered Hoseas's prayer to smite the Tribe of Ephraim: Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

"16 Ephraim is stricken, their root is dried up,
They will bear no fruit.
Even though they bear children,
I will slay the precious ones of their womb.
17 My God will cast them away
Because they have not listened to Him;"

God totally annihilated the entire Tribe of Ephraim with abortions.

So if abortion is evil, then God must be the most evil entity in the universe!

 

[Stan B]

Here's some more scripture that God never encouraged or supported abortion even caused by accident.
Here's one translation..

“If men should struggle with each other and they hurt a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but no fatality results, the offender must pay the damages imposed on him by the husband of the woman; and he must pay it through the judges. But if a fatality does occur, then you must give life for life.”—Exodus 21:22, 23

There are many different translations of this passage:
-a pregnant woman suffers a miscarriage
-so that her fruit depart
-she loses her child
-so that she has a miscarriage
-her infant shall come out
-her child be born imperfectly formed,
-and she miscarry indeed,

So a reasonable interpretation would be, that all she has a miscarriage, but she herself is not injured, then the offender must pay a fine.

 

[Wynona]

For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

>He was a life before he left the womb

While in the womb, he was still being knit together, just like when God created Adam, he wasn't a living being until all the parts were in place.

“The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath/spirit of life, and the man became a living being”
Genesis 2:7).

Adam did not become a living being until God breathed His Spirit, the Spirit of life into Adam. As James 2:6 says "the body apart from the spirit is dead . . " The body alone is dead. It is when God breathes into that body, his spirit is the last to be created to make man a living being.

The body of man is just dust. When man dies, "Man's body returns to the dust from whence it came; And the spirit returns to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

Paul comments on this as well, reaffirming the unimportance of the body: "For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven" 2 Corinthians 5:1-2

Job confirms this as well:
“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay.
The Spirit of God has made me,
the breath of the Almighty gives me life." Job 33

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

There are many other similar declarations in Scripture. A fetus is not alive until it is born, a the breath of God gives it life.

>>13 Thou shalt not kill.
To me, the outcome of being anti-abortion is simple just from those two verses.

That's a bad translation which incorrectly addresses the menu for my Thanksgiving turkey dinner. It says "Thou shalt not murder", i.e. the unlawful taking of life. But since a fetus does not have life, it cannot be murdered. You can't murder something that has never been alive.

>>However, why do you believe that abortion is okay?

I have made no comments about my personal feelings regarding abortion. I have restricted my comments to what the Bible says about abortion, and it says nothing. So if God doesn't think it was important enough to mention, then it is not my place to attempt to cover for God because He goofed up on that one.

And God answered Hoseas's prayer to smite the Tribe of Ephraim: Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

"16 Ephraim is stricken, their root is dried up,
They will bear no fruit.
Even though they bear children,
I will slay the precious ones of their womb.
17 My God will cast them away
Because they have not listened to Him;"

God totally annihilated the entire Tribe of Ephraim with abortions.

So if abortion is evil, then God must be the most evil entity in the universe!

So you don't think a fetus is a life because Adam was dust until God breathed life into Him?

At what point does the fetus become a life, in your opinion? Does God just wait to give the fetus a soul till the moment it comes out of the womb?

God has authority to give and take life. We don't have the same level of authority that God has.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

Here's some more scripture that God never encouraged or supported abortion even caused by accident.

Honestly, thats somewhat of a reach to call that an "abortion" simply because an "abortion" just by the name is a deliberate act (no accident or struggle to it)

It would be more along the lines of a capital sentence for gross negligence or depraved indifference where death was a consequence but not directly intended.

 

[Stan B]

So you don't think a fetus is a life because Adam was dust until God breathed life into Him?

At what point does the fetus become a life, in your opinion? Does God just wait to give the fetus a soul till the moment it comes out of the womb?

God has authority to give and take life. We don't have the same level of authority that God has.

That's what the Bible says, and a fetus does not have the breath of life while submerged amniotic sac. Do you have a problem with God's revelation as to how He creates?

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

That's what the Bible says, and a fetus does not have the breath of life while submerged amniotic sac. Do you have a problem with God's revelation as to how He creates?

The only problem here is that you clearly have a defective understanding of "life' as it applies in scripture and thats NOT what Scripture says.

 

[Wynona]

That's what the Bible says, and a fetus does not have the breath of life while submerged amniotic sac. Do you have a problem with God's revelation as to how He creates?

I just think that saying life doesn't transfer directly to the fetus because of how Adam was created is a huge assumption.

 

[Stan B]

Honestly, thats somewhat of a reach to call that an "abortion" simply because an "abortion" just by the name is a deliberate act (no accident or struggle to it)

It would be more along the lines of a capital sentence for gross negligence or depraved indifference where death was a consequence but not directly intended.

People have abortions all the time. God has designed that system that way, so that if a fetus is not forming correctly, it just a part of nature that she has a spontaneous abortion/miscarriage.

 

[Stan B]

The only problem here is that you clearly have a defective understanding of "life' as it applies in scripture and thats NOT what Scripture says.

The Scripture I read does!

 

[APAK]

Honestly, thats somewhat of a reach to call that an "abortion" simply because an "abortion" just by the name is a deliberate act (no accident or struggle to it)

It would be more along the lines of a capital sentence for gross negligence or depraved indifference where death was a consequence but not directly intended.

Confused here....abortion means a deliberate act? Yes it does, as you say, without consideration if it was an accident or struggle or deliberate in the process. Although the outcome is what matters AS. By abortion, did the fetus die or live in the end? In the OT at least, God said that even if the intent is not to do harm to the unborn, it is still a capital offense if the offender causes its (he or she) death...a life for a life....
I've just clarified by previous post to Wynona I hope...thanks

 

[APAK]

There are many different translations of this passage:
-a pregnant woman suffers a miscarriage
-so that her fruit depart
-she loses her child
-so that she has a miscarriage
-her infant shall come out
-her child be born imperfectly formed,
-and she miscarry indeed,

So a reasonable interpretation would be, that all she has a miscarriage, but she herself is not injured, then the offender must pay a fine.

That is not a reasonable conclusion of the scripture I posted, at all. You deliberately made a skewed interpretation to suit your needs. Why did you do this? Have you a rigid agenda on this subject?

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

People have abortions all the time. God has designed that system that way, so that if a fetus is not forming correctly, it just a part of nature that she has a spontaneous abortion/miscarriage.

You cannot possibly so uneducated as to confuse an abortion ( medical procedure with a deliberate intent) with a miscarriage (a biological function) can you?

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

The Scripture I read does!

Its not the scripture- its YOU

God breathed the breath of life INTO Adam and Adam BECAME a living soul. (Notice when eve came out of Adam God did NOT "breathe the breath" into her or did you not understand that part) It was IMPARTED to her through Adam as it IS with every other human that comes from them.

You do understand this don't you?

 

[Stan B]

I just think that saying life doesn't transfer directly to the fetus because of how Adam was created is a huge assumption.

God was still doing it the same way in Job's time:

“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
“Refute me if you can;

Array yourselves before me, take your stand.
“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay.
“Behold, no fear of me should terrify you,
Nor should my pressure weigh heavily on you. Job 33:44

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay."
“The Spirit of God has made me,

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust." Job 34:14-15

And then their is Ezekiel's prophecy regarding the resurrection of the Valley of Dry Bones:
"3 He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, You know.” 4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.’ 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath [spirit] to enter you that you may come to life. 6 I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord.’”

"7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. 9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army."
Ezekiel 37:1-14

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

God was still doing it the same way in Job's time:

“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
“Refute me if you can;

Array yourselves before me, take your stand.
“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay.
“Behold, no fear of me should terrify you,
Nor should my pressure weigh heavily on you. Job 33:44

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay."
“The Spirit of God has made me,

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust." Job 34:14-15

And then their is Ezekiel's prophecy regarding the resurrection of the Valley of Dry Bones:
"3 He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, You know.” 4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.’ 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath [spirit] to enter you that you may come to life. 6 I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord.’”

"7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. 9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army."
Ezekiel 37:1-14

you really don't grasp this do you?

 

[Wynona]

God was still doing it the same way in Job's time:

“The Spirit of God has made me,
And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
“Refute me if you can;

Array yourselves before me, take your stand.
“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay.
“Behold, no fear of me should terrify you,
Nor should my pressure weigh heavily on you. Job 33:44

“Behold, I belong to God like you;
I too have been formed out of the clay."
“The Spirit of God has made me,

"Till I die I will not put away my integrity from me.
For as long as life is in me,
And the breath of God is in my nostrils" Job 27

If He should gather to Himself His spirit and His breath, All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust." Job 34:14-15

And then their is Ezekiel's prophecy regarding the resurrection of the Valley of Dry Bones:
"3 He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, You know.” 4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy over these bones and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.’ 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones, ‘Behold, I will cause breath [spirit] to enter you that you may come to life. 6 I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the Lord.’”

"7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them. 9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life.”’” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army."
Ezekiel 37:1-14

An Apologetic Sheepdog did make a good point. Eve was formed out of Adam's rib (Genesis 2:22-24).

She isn't dust. God imparted life from Adam into her. The same way life is imparted once a baby is formed from the sperm and the egg.

 

[Stan B]

That is not a reasonable conclusion of the scripture I posted, at all. You deliberately made a skewed interpretation to suit your needs. Why did you do this? Have you a rigid agenda on this subject?

You posted one interpretation of 8 variances. Maybe my take from it is wrong, and then again, it might be right. The passage has left me with no doctrinal certainty, and the answer is unimportant to me because in all my years, I have never witnessed a woman having a miscarriage because two guys were in a fight.

 

[Stan B]

An Apologetic Sheepdog did make a good point. Eve was formed out of Adam's rib (Genesis 2:22-24).

She isn't dust. God imparted life from Adam into her. The same way life is imparted once a baby is formed from the sperm and the egg.

Seems like God took the easy way that time, because the rib already contained Adam's DNA and then added the Y Chromosomes to the mix.

 

[Stan B]

Its not the scripture- its YOU

God breathed the breath of life INTO Adam and Adam BECAME a living soul. (Notice when eve came out of Adam God did NOT "breathe the breath" into her or did you not understand that part) It was IMPARTED to her through Adam as it IS with every other human that comes from them.

You do understand this don't you?

Just because God didn't provide a detailed account, doesn't mean it didn't happen. And of course we all know that an argument based on silence is not worth considering.

 

[Stan B]

An Apologetic Sheepdog did make a good point. Eve was formed out of Adam's rib (Genesis 2:22-24).

She isn't dust. God imparted life from Adam into her. The same way life is imparted once a baby is formed from the sperm and the egg.
Life is not imparted from sperm and egg. That's just the beginning of a growth that is going to take place in the womb.