Catholics

[Helen]

Oh Goodness,

I'm freaking out. An apology on this forum. You have stolen my heart. I RARELY see anyone apologize on this forum even when they have CLEARLY said something wrong or said something they should not have said. They usually dig in their heels. I sincerely appreciate your honesty.

I am curious though. How else would one interpret that passage? It seems pretty darn clear to me.

Mary

Hi there
I remember the struggle I went through to openly pray in a meeting. It was a challenge for me..then when I matured I saw the power in prayer.
Not just the " closet type" but the power of "two and three being agreed"
Personally I believe that the demons hate to hear us pray with authority...
Proverbs 18:21 tells us that- "Death and life are in the power of the tongue.." . and the devil knows that. Therefore I always pray aloud , both privately and openly.
I agree with you that if we are speaking to God in prayer, that happens to have nothing to do with the collective group...that should be in private.
Yet, that said...I "talk" to the Lord all the time, even when shopping..I do it under my breath... I don't stand in the Mall with my arms raised praying my private prayer to God , just to be seen. I think I would get carted off!

I just don't see it as a hard and fast rule as you seem to do.
The Pharisee were a religious lot, they thrived on how pious there were , but they had no genuine heart toward God, they wanted to command respect of the people ..they put "weights" on the people..and had loads of rules and laws..which did not bring the people closer to God, but the opposite .

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." Matt 23:13
They actually put people off from genuine heartfelt worship to God.

Yes, can can hear you saying ..what the heck is she talking about! ha!

"To me"...Jesus was telling the people not to pray with the wrong motivation or intent, like the Pharisees, which was "to be seen of men."
ie, Don't just "act" spiritual, but live it from the heart.
The same as the story we read in Luke 18.
"Two men went up to the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer; the Pharisee having stood by himself, thus prayed: God, I thank Thee that I am not as the rest of men, rapacious, unrighteous, adulterers, or even as this tax-gatherer;
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all things -- as many as I possess.
`And the tax-gatherer, having stood afar off, would not even the eyes lift up to the heaven, but was smiting on his breast, saying, God be propitious to me -- the sinner!"

Two types of public prayer..two very different hearts and motivations.
I believe it was heart and motivation that Jesus was addressing in your scripture.
But, I'm not trying to convince you..just saying what 'I' believe.

///

 

[Marymog]

Hi there
I remember the struggle I went through to openly pray in a meeting. It was a challenge for me..then when I matured I saw the power in prayer.
Not just the " closet type" but the power of "two and three being agreed"
Personally I believe that the demons hate to hear us pray with authority...
Proverbs 18:21 tells us that- "Death and life are in the power of the tongue.." . and the devil knows that. Therefore I always pray aloud , both privately and openly.
I agree with you that if we are speaking to God in prayer, that happens to have nothing to do with the collective group...that should be in private.
Yet, that said...I "talk" to the Lord all the time, even when shopping..I do it under my breath... I don't stand in the Mall with my arms raised praying my private prayer to God , just to be seen. I think I would get carted off!
I just don't see it as a hard and fast rule as you seem to do.
The Pharisee were a religious lot, they thrived on how pious there were , but they had no genuine heart toward God, they wanted to command respect of the people ..they put "weights" on the people..and had loads of rules and laws..which did not bring the people closer to God, but the opposite .
"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." Matt 23:13
They actually put people off from genuine heartfelt worship to God.
Yes, can can hear you saying ..what the heck is she talking about! ha!
"To me"...Jesus was telling the people not to pray with the wrong motivation or intent, like the Pharisees, which was "to be seen of men."
ie, Don't just "act" spiritual, but live it from the heart.
The same as the story we read in Luke 18.
"Two men went up to the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer; the Pharisee having stood by himself, thus prayed: God, I thank Thee that I am not as the rest of men, rapacious, unrighteous, adulterers, or even as this tax-gatherer;
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all things -- as many as I possess.
`And the tax-gatherer, having stood afar off, would not even the eyes lift up to the heaven, but was smiting on his breast, saying, God be propitious to me -- the sinner!"
Two types of public prayer..two very different hearts and motivations.
I believe it was heart and motivation that Jesus was addressing in your scripture.
But, I'm not trying to convince you..just saying what 'I' believe.

ByGrace,

Here is the way I see it. Hypocrites pray in public. Just like Jesus said.

We should pray in private. Pray unceasingly. Pray until you can pray no more...and then pray some more.

And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites. Fast for the good of yourself and for the good of your fellow man.

And when you give to the Church or charity don't let everyone know how much you give, as the hypocrites do, so that they may be praised by men. Give because you want to give. Give because you want to help your fellow man.

Pray, fast and give as much as you can in private. Just like scripture says to do. Move about your day with no fanfare of your deeds. God will reward you in private.

That is what scripture says. That is what I believe.

You, my friend in Christ, left me with the impression that you completely and utterly disagreed with me when you said: "How on earth you draw that conclusion totally amazes me!! Good night shirt. Whoever taught you that sold you a lemon!! That's sad."

Since the Holy Spirit taught me what I believe and He seems to have taught you something different, who is He deceiving? You or me?

So if two or three Catholics are gathered in prayer and two or three Baptist are gathered in prayer and they both ask for a different outcome of the same situation (based on their Churches teachings)...who will God listen too? I'm just curious since Baptist and Catholics have different beliefs. That passage has always confused me.

Mary

 

[aspen]

You can pray in public and be authentic. "God, thy will be done". Praying for the well being of neighbor or self is often authentic.

You can pray in public like a hypocrite, as well. Being a hypocrite during prayer takes many forms - manipulation is a common red flag for hypocrisy, which takes the form of a mini sermon - it sounds like a prayer to God, but it really speaking to the audience about the importance of changing their behavior according the message of the sermon. "God, I pray that everyone here, hears your message and it works as a seed of hope in their lives, which blossoms into a field of radiant flowers; carrying your will through the land".

Other, more obvious hypocrisy in prayer involves manipulation, but also benefits the person praying, "Lord, we pray for a spirit of poverty! Teach us Lord, to be poor in spirit and lead us to give our lives and our resources to the work of spreading your will. As a pledge of our willingness to serve you, lead us to give freely to this ministry that you have created to love and serve our neighbors."

Equating hypocrisy with all public prayer denies the difference between authentic prayer and manipulation using the language of prayer. It is a shortcut, aimed at erraticating sin through behavior change rather than heart change. An analogy might sound like this; when confronted with a boundary, like "please stop listening to my private conversations through the door" a defensive person might say, "Fine, I wont listen to you ever again!" Obviously, the act of listening is not the problem, neither is praying in public. It also dismisses the real possibility of private prayer being hypocritical

 

[Helen]

ByGrace,

Since the Holy Spirit taught me what I believe and He seems to have taught you something different, who is He deceiving? You or me?

So if two or three Catholics are gathered in prayer and two or three Baptist are gathered in prayer and they both ask for a different outcome of the same situation (based on their Churches teachings)...who will God listen too? I'm just curious since Baptist and Catholics have different beliefs. That passage has always confused me.

Mary

Hi Mary
I probably should/could have worded mine differently.

I just objection to you saying "this is wrong" and should not be done. (praying openly) I still think that grace is bigger than that. I still believe God looks at the intent of the heart..and see beyond.
I think God is bigger.

It was against the law for anyone but priest to enter the Holy place, and even touch the shewbread, let alone eat it!! But we read that when David and his men were hungry that is just what he did...he bypassed the law.
He saw beyond the law. His feet may have been in the OT, but his heart was in the NT.
I do totally agree that we do probably nullify each others payers.
Now we we wait on the Lord, and hear what He wishes us to pray..the answer comes ( because it roots were in Him) but if we just pray by 'need' or by what 'we' desire to see happen...then much of the time the answer does not come.
Forget 'Catholics or Baptists'
In the three of the same denomination together praying, there still seems to be a desire for a different outcome of things !! Which means they did not shut up, and get quiet before God and LISTEN to how He wanted them to pray! They are just whistling in the dark I think.
Obviously it is right and good to pray our 'love prayers' and relationship prayers with our Father..but when it comes down to "issue" prayers..to me we are wasting our time and God's, in telling Him what we want to see happen.
The prayers that the Holy Spirit initiates, and prays though us, are the prayers that get answered. So..unless we hear before we pray...it is like passing wind, may make you feel better, but accomplishes nothing! LOL
I have walked out of many prayer meetings for this very reason. To me it is an insult to God to not ask Him beforehand how HE wants us to pray.
There is a lovely verse that blesses me in Ps 103
I believe God responds to His own word, in our mouth. So we "pray the word" ..His word. That is the most powerful prayer.

I believe in angels I saw them the night my dear old dad died.
I believe they wait to hear us with the authority of God in our mouth, then they move on God's behalf to accomplish God will for the situation.
Ps 103:20
"Bless the LORD, you His Angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word." and
Hebrews 1:14 " Are they ( angels ) not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"

But, like I say...this is just how 'I' live my life with the Lord...not saying that anyone else must do the same.

Bless you...Helen.

 

[Marymog]

Hi Mary
I probably should/could have worded mine differently.
I just objection to you saying "this is wrong" and should not be done. (praying openly) I still think that grace is bigger than that. I still believe God looks at the intent of the heart..and see beyond.
I think God is bigger.
It was against the law for anyone but priest to enter the Holy place, and even touch the shewbread, let alone eat it!! But we read that when David and his men were hungry that is just what he did...he bypassed the law.
He saw beyond the law. His feet may have been in the OT, but his heart was in the NT.
I do totally agree that we do probably nullify each others payers.
Now we we wait on the Lord, and hear what He wishes us to pray..the answer comes ( because it roots were in Him) but if we just pray by 'need' or by what 'we' desire to see happen...then much of the time the answer does not come.
Forget 'Catholics or Baptists'
In the three of the same denomination together praying, there still seems to be a desire for a different outcome of things !! Which means they did not shut up, and get quiet before God and LISTEN to how He wanted them to pray! They are just whistling in the dark I think.
Obviously it is right and good to pray our 'love prayers' and relationship prayers with our Father..but when it comes down to "issue" prayers..to me we are wasting our time and God's, in telling Him what we want to see happen.
The prayers that the Holy Spirit initiates, and prays though us, are the prayers that get answered. So..unless we hear before we pray...it is like passing wind, may make you feel better, but accomplishes nothing! LOL
I have walked out of many prayer meetings for this very reason. To me it is an insult to God to not ask Him beforehand how HE wants us to pray.
There is a lovely verse that blesses me in Ps 103
I believe God responds to His own word, in our mouth. So we "pray the word" ..His word. That is the most powerful prayer.
I believe in angels I saw them the night my dear old dad died.
I believe they wait to hear us with the authority of God in our mouth, then they move on God's behalf to accomplish God will for the situation.
Ps 103:20
"Bless the LORD, you His Angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word." and
Hebrews 1:14 " Are they ( angels ) not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?"
But, like I say...this is just how 'I' live my life with the Lord...not saying that anyone else must do the same.
Bless you...Helen.

Hola,

The intent of the heart? To defy scripture? (do not pray in public like the hypocrites)
Seems pretty simple to me. Do not pray in public LIKE THE HYPOCRITES DO.

No matter your intent, it is WRONG to pray in public, according to Jesus.

You have yet to provide one word from scripture that shows it is OK.

Jesus shows no GRACE. He said you are a hypocrite if you pray in public. Plain and simple.

So I ask again and this is based on the scripture YOU provided: If two or three Catholics are gathered in prayer and two or three Baptist are gathered in prayer and they both ask for a different outcome of the same situation (based on their Churches teachings)...who will God listen too?

You dodged my question.

Mary

 

[Helen]

I felt that I answered your question...= NEITHER!!!
Unless one of the groups heard from the Holy Spirit HOW to pray..then, and then only, God will answer.

 

[epostle1]

Catholic Bridge: Why do Catholics call Mother Mary "Queen of Heaven and Earth"?

A very good link. Did you actually read it?

 

[twinc]

I felt that I answered your question...= NEITHER!!!
Unless one of the groups heard from the Holy Spirit HOW to pray..then, and then only, God will answer.

I felt that I answered your question...= NEITHER!!!
Unless one of the groups heard from the Holy Spirit HOW to pray..then, and then only, God will answer.

just come over to this forum - so have not had time to read all the replies so far, so excuse me if I am repeating anything already said but here the answer is both and God even answers Hindus and Muslims - but we are clearly told what to pray at Matt 6:9 and how to pray at 6:6 - twinc

 

[Stranger]

Hola,

The intent of the heart? To defy scripture? (do not pray in public like the hypocrites)
Seems pretty simple to me. Do not pray in public LIKE THE HYPOCRITES DO.

No matter your intent, it is WRONG to pray in public, according to Jesus.

You have yet to provide one word from scripture that shows it is OK.

Jesus shows no GRACE. He said you are a hypocrite if you pray in public. Plain and simple.

So I ask again and this is based on the scripture YOU provided: If two or three Catholics are gathered in prayer and two or three Baptist are gathered in prayer and they both ask for a different outcome of the same situation (based on their Churches teachings)...who will God listen too?

You dodged my question.

Mary

(John 11:41-43)

Jesus didn't mind praying in public.

Stranger

 

[epostle1]

Hola,

The intent of the heart? To defy scripture? (do not pray in public like the hypocrites)
Seems pretty simple to me. Do not pray in public LIKE THE HYPOCRITES DO.

No matter your intent, it is WRONG to pray in public, according to Jesus.

You have yet to provide one word from scripture that shows it is OK.

Jesus shows no GRACE. He said you are a hypocrite if you pray in public. Plain and simple.

So I ask again and this is based on the scripture YOU provided: If two or three Catholics are gathered in prayer and two or three Baptist are gathered in prayer and they both ask for a different outcome of the same situation (based on their Churches teachings)...who will God listen too?

You dodged my question.

Mary

God will listen to both. How He answers is none of your business.

 

[Job]

So I ask again and this is based on the scripture YOU provided: If two or three Catholics are gathered in prayer and two or three Baptist are gathered in prayer and they both ask for a different outcome of the same situation (based on their Churches teachings)...who will God listen too?

This is called baiting.

 

[pia]

Dear Pia,

You should read ALL of that chapter instead of the few cherry picked sentences that fit your theory:

30. What SIGN or WORK are you going to do for us Jesus so that we may BELIEVE in you.
31. Our fathers at bread (manna) in the wilderness and this bread came from heaven.
32. Jesus responds; Moses didn't give you that bread. My Father gave it to you and He gives you TRUE bread.
33. The bread that God gives is the bread that gives life to the world.
34. They said to Jesus: Always give us this bread.

Notice they ask for a SIGN or WORK so that they may BELIEVE him. It doesn't say, Just believe and you are going to be OK.

Jesus then says that He is the bread that gives life. You must eat this bread to have life in you. Your two sentence cherry picked quote is not in context. When it is put in context one can see how completely and utterly wrong you are.

NO WHERE in scripture does it say, Just BELIEVE and everything will be OK.

Mary

I didn't claim that. He said :" Ask, believe and you shall receive." Paraphrased from various different times Jesus says this....You can find the scriptures yourself.....

 

[pia]

Hi Pia,

You SHALL NOT or is it that you CAN NOT answer those questions? I haven't seen a legitimate answer yet. If you CAN NOT answer those questions maybe we should discuss WHY you can't?

I have been asked to guide you thru scripture so that you may learn The Truth. Are you willing to take that journey with me?

Love, Mary

As I said, follow your own heart and leave me in His safe hands, never failed me before.

 

[pia]

Hi Pia,

You SHALL NOT or is it that you CAN NOT answer those questions? I haven't seen a legitimate answer yet. If you CAN NOT answer those questions maybe we should discuss WHY you can't?

I have been asked to guide you thru scripture so that you may learn The Truth. Are you willing to take that journey with me?

Love, Mary

Never came onto this forum to discuss of what's mainly contentious issues. Had just hoped for some fellowship between believers. Not always easy to find.

 

[pia]

Marymog...Are you at all aware of the venomous and deceitful way you get people into your 'grasp' ? You claim you are searching, which you are obviously not. To appoint yourself Holy Ghost Junior, that's a whole other matter. I can only answer you one way. I KNOW Him and therefore His Truth...... My now late husband, who knew me for 23 years, and who had been to Bible school, was in his own words constantly amazed, but it took him almost 20 years to receive something from The Lord, just because I said so. But until then he would always come running excitedly with The Bible to show me where various things were in it, which confirmed what I shared with him , that Jesus had either told me or shown me. Others have also done this. It never bothered me, whether it was in there or not, but I have come to realize it matters a WHOLE lot to other believers. That's OK, but let not the Bible become a physical idol in your life, when The Risen Christ is right there for you to reach, and even His Holy Spirit, if you allow yourself to be sealed by Him. Become ONE with HIM, not churches, priests, pastors or any other thing. He is where the Life, Truth, Love, Wisdom and on and on comes from, He is the real source of it all, so why would you go elsewhere? OK, I have had my fill of that which profits nothing, so I wish you well, and I have tried my best to answer your 'question'.

 

[pia]

I felt that I answered your question...= NEITHER!!!
Unless one of the groups heard from the Holy Spirit HOW to pray..then, and then only, God will answer.

Wow she truly is a piece of work, may even be one of those troll atheists who just stirs up trouble. I have read a great many of her posts now, and there most certainly is no fruit accompanying her so called 'been lead by The Holy spirit for 15 years' ( at some point , she claimed this ) That is what made me wonder, this isn't just to have a go, and I hope you do remember me different than that, I really do wonder now, as she seems to coming from the east, then the west etc. very odd indeed....Bless your patience in Him

 

[mjrhealth]

Do you think that Jesus judges the individual - or judges entire groups on a curve??
Do you have even have a CLUE about that?? I don't think so.

Jesus will judge those cardinals and priests harshly (Matt. 18:6). But, make NO mistake my ignorant friend - we will be judged as individuals - not as a group. There are good people AND bad people within the Church - just as Jesus warned there would be (Matt. 7:15-20). Didn't you know that??

You're trying to judge Christ's Church based on the actions of a few sinners. That's not only anti-Biblical - it's really stupid logic.

Look - instead of just quoting the Bible in post after post - take some time to LEARN what it is saying.
Remember - ignorance is NOT bliss . .

No judging here, teh fruit is obvious it is rotten and stinks.

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

And we are not so blind

Had to do that I know you love shouting.

 

[mjrhealth]

Ad that's just it - you're NOT in His Church.
You're an angry, lying enemy of His Church - and He won't take that lightly . .

Angry, whos using the bold letters, I have nothing to be angry about, you chose your religion we have chosen Him, it is your choice not His. Cant help it if belonging to Him makes you angry, all you need do is ask. As i said before, salavtion is in Him alo0ne, no back doors.

 

[tabletalk]

Hi Scott, Don't sweat the small stuff from the adversary, the Lord Himself will deal with this one in 3 days so that He learns not to blaspheme his God. It's going to get awfully hot for him and a consuming fire will threaten his house and he will know that it's from the Lord. Even this is an act of grace on the Lord's part, because this is about unification of the body of Christ (and not the promotion of some institution).

3 days have passed. Did a "consuming fire threaten his house"?

 

[bbyrd009]

(John 11:41-43)

Jesus didn't mind praying in public.

Stranger

"but becauseth of the multitude that standeth around I saideth it..."