Catholics

[bbyrd009]

Dear Sir,

You have me completely confused. I thought we were talking about Augustine and now you are saying Constantine!!!

I am going to assume it was a typo and you mean AUGUSTINE.

With that said I can not find anything about Augustine teaching deathbed acceptance of Christ being OK. Could you provide a link to a LEGITIMATE website backing up your statement? Please!!

Mary

Augustinianism holds that, after the Fall, mankind is unable to not sin.

my bad, i confuse these two all the time. So then, Augustinianism, and the development of the Original Sin doctrine then. (As opposed to the Law of sin and death; two different things)

 

[bbyrd009]

Did anyone have an influence on you getting saved?

well, i might reiterate that i don't think i or anyone else gets "saved" in this manner, we just say that they have. So, this makes your question kind of hard to answer, at least until we agree on what "saved" is. Yes, some adults who had influence on my parents also influenced me, but i do not consider any of them "saved" now, but more like people who have found a way to fit God into their busy lives, to the tune of a couple hours a week. Fence sitters, mostly iow.

 

[bbyrd009]

Your parents taught you to fear God? If so, they did the right thing. Matthew 10:28 is one example and if you read scripture you will see many more references about fearing God.

i agree that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, but certainly should not be the end. Also, that is usually translated fear, but may also mean "respect" or even "revere." "Fear" is likely the very worst way to characterize a relationship with God. Relationships are not built upon fear.

 

[bbyrd009]

Also, your out of context quote of John 10:10 makes absolutely no sense to me therefor I don't feel comfortable commenting on it.

makes a lot more sense imo than believing that Paul craved physical death in order to be with the Lord though. yikes. You say "out of context," but "life, more abundantly" must by definition mean "while you are alive," so you would have to point out how i have altered the context there, in what is only after all a question?

 

[bbyrd009]

If a person says they know Christ and that they are a true Christian YOU get to decide if they really know Christ and are a true Christian?

Curious Mary

ha hardly. The point was that many will cry "Lord, Lord" and yet hear "I never knew you." Iow i might be calling myself a "Christian" and God might be laughing about that. People can say whatever makes them feel justified, doesn't make it true.

Also, Christianity is not the only religion that demands Christ be followed. So no, you do not have to be a Christian to be seeking Christ, which is brought out in other passages, Romans 4 for instance

9 Do you think for a minute that this blessing is only pronounced over those of us who keep our religious ways and are circumcised? Or do you think it possible that the blessing could be given to those who never even heard of our ways, who were never brought up in the disciplines of God? We all agree, don't we, that it was by embracing what God did for him that Abraham was declared fit before God?

 

[Marymog]

Augustinianism holds that, after the Fall, mankind is unable to not sin.

my bad, i confuse these two all the time. So then, Augustinianism, and the development of the Original Sin doctrine then.

I think I understand you now. You have a problem with the original sin doctrine that was first articulated by Augustine.

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate from the tree was that a sin?

Curious Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

You have a problem with the original sin doctrine that was first articulated by Augustine.

it subverts the Law of sin and death, yes.

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate from the tree was that a sin?

no, of course not!

j/k, yes, it is deemed a "sin" by the Book, of course.

 

[Marymog]

it subverts the Law of sin and death, yes.

no, of course not!

j/k, yes, it is deemed a "sin" by the Book, of course.

Is it fair to say that the very first act of man disobeying God was the "original" (defined as first) sin?

Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

Is it fair to say that the very first act of man disobeying God was the "original" (defined as first) sin?

Mary

i'm not interested, Mary. Scripture plainly states that we sin "from a young age" etc, but infants do not sin. Original Sin is a doctrine meant to oppress people; the Law of sin and death is inviolable.

 

[Marymog]

i agree that fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, but certainly should not be the end. Also, that is usually translated fear, but may also mean "respect" or even "revere." "Fear" is likely the very worst way to characterize a relationship with God. Relationships are not built upon fear.

I could not find ANY reliable translation of scripture that has the word "respect" or "revere" in Matthew 10:28. Twist it however you want....It says fear.

Love, Mary

 

[bbyrd009]

I could not find ANY reliable translation of scripture that has the word "respect" or "revere" in Matthew 10:28. Twist it however you want....It says fear.

Love, Mary

not that Strong's is not as corrupted as the translations available to us, but
Strong's Greek: 5399. φοβέω (phobeó) -- to put to flight, to terrify, frighten
you'll see that "revere" is in there. Also "awestruck" and "respects," down lower.

Fwiw imo "fear" is a good rendering in the quoted verse, but maybe not so much in some other passages. Fear is a good beginning, not denying that

18There is no fear in love; instead, perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. So the one who fears has not reached perfection in love.

so then the two concepts have to be reconciled some kind of way. Yes, one "fears" their parents, perhaps, or maybe one of them, who knows, but this isn't or at least should not be the best characterization of the relationship?

 

[Marymog]

i'm not interested, Mary. Scripture plainly states that we sin "from a young age" etc, but infants do not sin. Original Sin is a doctrine meant to oppress people; the Law of sin and death is inviolable.

Dear sir,

I don't understand. You agree that it was "deemed a "sin" by the Book". And we know that it was CLEARLY the very first (original) sin of man. But your "not interested" in calling it original sin? It seems like you agree it was original sin, however, you just don't want to say it was original sin. What words would you use to describe the "first sin"?

Scripture also plainly states that the first (original) sin of man was by Adam and Eve (Genesis) and that sin came into the world through one man, Adam (Romans, 1Corinthians).

Where does scripture "PLAINLY state that we sin from a young age"? I can't find it.

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

not that Strong's is not as corrupted as the translations available to us, but
Strong's Greek: 5399. φοβέω (phobeó) -- to put to flight, to terrify, frighten
you'll see that "revere" is in there. Also "awestruck" and "respects," down lower.

Fwiw imo "fear" is a good rendering in the quoted verse, but maybe not so much in some other passages. Fear is a good beginning, not denying that

18There is no fear in love; instead, perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. So the one who fears has not reached perfection in love.

so then the two concepts have to be reconciled some kind of way. Yes, one "fears" their parents, perhaps, or maybe one of them, who knows, but this isn't or at least should not be the best characterization of the relationship?

Dear sir,

Neither I nor scripture said this one word (fear) is the "best characterization of the relationship". If I did say that then please quote me and provide the post number.

My response is still the same with even stronger emphasis on the bold and underlined portion:

I could not find ANY reliable translation of scripture that has the word "respect" or "revere" in Matthew 10:28. Twist it however you want....It says fear.

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

i'm not interested, Mary. Scripture plainly states that we sin "from a young age" etc, but infants do not sin. Original Sin is a doctrine meant to oppress people; the Law of sin and death is inviolable.

Rubbish.
Original Sin is a Biblical concept and one that we read about in the pages of Scripture:

- Genesis 8:21 claims, “. . . the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth.”
- Proverbs 22:15 states, “Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.”
- Psalm 51:5 says that ALL of us come into the world as sinners: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.”
- Ephesians 2:2 states that ALL of us who are not in Christ are “sons of disobedience.”
- Ephesians 2:3 makes no bones about saying that ALL are “by nature children of wrath.”

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt . . .

 

[aspen]

And you have no problem with the lies spewed by "Truth"?
Your defense of this kind of rubbish is precisely what exposes your anti-Catholicism.

Shame on you.

What does Truths post have to do with yours? Your attempts at rebranding me as anti catholic may get you a job at FOXNEWS or on Trumps ongoing campaign for re-election, but it is futile.

 

[aspen]

I tend to believe that we are being sanctified everyday, whether we know it or not - sinful lives shape the heart and will, as well as lives committed to humility and love. I would not want to be a person who devoted my life to the flesh, with the expectation of converting at the last minute - the last minute has been conditioned by the flesh and will naturally follow its master.

 

[Helen]

Dear sir,

I don't understand. You agree that it was "deemed a "sin" by the Book". And we know that it was CLEARLY the very first (original) sin of man. But your "not interested" in calling it original sin? It seems like you agree it was original sin, however, you just don't want to say it was original sin. What words would you use to describe the "first sin"?

Scripture also plainly states that the first (original) sin of man was by Adam and Eve (Genesis) and that sin came into the world through one man, Adam (Romans, 1Corinthians).

Where does scripture "PLAINLY state that we sin from a young age"? I can't find it.

Curious Mary

Can I come in on this? before the subject changes again ha!
I have never got all this early-bit in the Garden straight.
To my understanding ( which is small brain stuff) I feel that Eve was deceived...not a deliberate sin....But Adam, saw her after she had eaten..and chose to eat himself....therefore his was the deliberate and first sin. ( now how it would have been if Adam chose to not eat, but harken to God..only God knows..) It was all part of The Plan, anyway.
Any thoughts?

 

[BreadOfLife]

What does Truths post have to do with yours? Your attempts at rebranding me as anti catholic may get you a job at FOXNEWS or on Trumps ongoing campaign for re-election, but it is futile.

Are you even paying attention - or do you just like to whine??
My post that YOU reported as "pure flaming" was a response to "Truth's" post #1851, where he/she posted the following anti-Catholic lies:
That the Catholic Church was established by Rome and not Jesus and the Apostles
That Constantine was the first Catholic Pontiff.
That Constantine "melded" paganism with Christianity.

Start paying attention to the posts - or simply stay out of my conversations with others . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Can I come in on this? before the subject changes again ha!
I have never got all this early-bit in the Garden straight.
To my understanding ( which is small brain stuff) I feel that Eve was deceived...not a deliberate sin....But Adam, saw her after she had eaten..and chose to eat himself....therefore his was the deliberate and first sin. ( now how it would have been if Adam chose to not eat, but harken to God..only God knows..) It was all part of The Plan, anyway.
Any thoughts?

Clearly they BOTH sinned because they were BOTH punished.
Being "deceived" isn't a get out of jail free card. We are responsible for our actions.

 

[Marymog]

Can I come in on this? before the subject changes again ha!
I have never got all this early-bit in the Garden straight.
To my understanding ( which is small brain stuff) I feel that Eve was deceived...not a deliberate sin....But Adam, saw her after she had eaten..and chose to eat himself....therefore his was the deliberate and first sin. ( now how it would have been if Adam chose to not eat, but harken to God..only God knows..) It was all part of The Plan, anyway.
Any thoughts?

It changes nothing. There the FACT is there was still the first sin.