Christ has already returned ?

[ProDeo]

I think it’s cool we get along.

Yes, I had to get used to your writing style, but that is all okay now

The greatest challenge on a Bible forum is to fulfill the commandment Jesus gave us in John 13:34 -

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

@ProDeo would you like to share what you think now and maybe when you first like maybe came to church and introduced to Christianity, idk if you believe Jesus came back or not, really cause I haven’t ask you. Would love to hear if you might have anything you would like to share with not only me but anyone who may read your post, just add me so I can read it okay?

As a very young Christian I grew up with the teachings of Hal Lindsey and his book "The late great planet Earth" regarding end time theories. I bought the book by accident, I wanted something to read for the weekend and I was in a hurry and saw the book volatile, thought it was science fiction and bought it. To my surprise it was about the Bible and I became fascinated, also learned a lot about about Christ. Decades later I became frustrated with the book because what the author implied did not happen.

Studying end time theories later I came to the conclusion none of the known theories was without buts, not one was conclusive and I simply gave up.

Then the internet came with Bible fora and there end game theories are a hot topics and so I started a next round reading again. And I came across the same Scripture passages as you while trying to make sense of it. It took some time to mature and external historical knowledge certainly helped to believe Jesus only returned in the skies to rescue His people from the great tribulation as a viable theory.

Nevertheless I still believe Jesus will return bodily on Earth (not only in the skies) to end all the nonsense as pointed out in Zach chapter 14 as the Lord God has some unfinished business with Israel (Romans 11:25-36), it's no accident Israel after 1900 years is on the map again and Israel will repent (Zach 12:10), grafted in the olive tree.

 

[ProDeo]

The day of the Lord did not occur in AD 70. Jesus has not yet come unexpectedly as a thief in the night to bring sudden destruction on all of those who are in spiritual darkness. It will involve the dissolving of the heavens and the elements as well as the burning up of the earth and the things on the earth, resulting in the new heavens and new earth where only righteousness will dwell.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

What Peter wrote is future, certainly something to look forward to.

But the topic is the past.

 

[MatthewG]

Yes, I had to get used to your writing style, but that is all okay now

The greatest challenge on a Bible forum is to fulfill the commandment Jesus gave us in John 13:34 -

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.



As a very young Christian I grew up with the teachings of Hal Lindsey and his book "The late great planet Earth" regarding end time theories. I bought the book by accident, I wanted something to read for the weekend and I was in a hurry and saw the book volatile, thought it was science fiction and bought it. To my surprise it was about the Bible and I became fascinated, also learned a lot about about Christ. Decades later I became frustrated with the book because what the author implied did not happen.

Studying end time theories later I came to the conclusion none of the known theories was without buts, not one was conclusive and I simply gave up.

Then the internet came with Bible fora and there end game theories are a hot topics and so I started a next round reading again. And I came across the same Scripture passages as you while trying to make sense of it. It took some time to mature and external historical knowledge certainly helped to believe Jesus only returned in the skies to rescue His people from the great tribulation as a viable theory.

Nevertheless I still believe Jesus will return bodily on Earth (not only in the skies) to end all the nonsense as pointed out in Zach chapter 14 as the Lord God has some unfinished business with Israel (Romans 11:25-36), it's no accident Israel after 1900 years is on the map again and Israel will repent (Zach 12:10), grafted in the olive tree.

What’s zach 14 about? Thank you for sharing that with me. It’s understandable the dissatisfaction of the author ; how did that not also deter you from continuing on looking to God in spite of human failure?

 

[claninja]

This is the point: "This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

the simplest and most natural reading of the olivet discourse presents the the son of man coming on the clouds within Jesus’ first century audience.

“This generation will not pass away until all these things occur”

 

[Truth7t7]

I just want you to know I have you hidden and ignored but what you say is a lie about me personally, as you can see below. Thank you for your contribution to this thread that is not even mine.

I appericate everyone person that is against me on this forum site.

But make sure you know what I am capable of telling people in real life as well as the internet with no shame. They disagree but that is about it.

Christ has already returned ?

Calm down there. I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion with you and I'm not judging you, okay? I'm just asking if you've considered the possibility that Jesus could have been talking about His transfiguration in Matthew 16:28 or not. So, have you? I’m calm, brother. I’m not upset with you...

www.christianityboard.com

Your claims are false

 

[Davy]

I am not a preterist, or even a partial preterist, but I would say 1 Thes 4:17 is a spiritual event ... I believe in a literal rapture, but aspects of being "caught up" are spiritual ... the idea of millions of bodies suddenly floating up into the air is a movie fantasy.

Sorry to say it, but that means you don't really understand New Testament Scripture about the science of our created makeup, nor how it applies to Paul's change at the twinkling of an eye he mentioned in 1 Cor.15.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What Peter wrote is future, certainly something to look forward to.

But the topic is the past.

I don't know what you mean. Please explain.

 

[markalan]

Sorry to say it, but that means you don't really understand New Testament Scripture about the science of our created makeup, nor how it applies to Paul's change at the twinkling of an eye he mentioned in 1 Cor.15.

I do not understand what "the science of our created makeup" means.

By the twinkling of an eye, Paul is saying that those believers who are alive at the time of the resurrection will undergo a transformation of their bodies into an immortal state.

1Cor 15:51-53​

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

 

[PeterAndroz]

I do not understand what "the science of our created makeup" means.

By the twinkling of an eye, Paul is saying that those believers who are alive at the time of the resurrection will undergo a transformation of their bodies into an immortal state.

1Cor 15:51-53​

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

Hey Mark, the "MYSTERY" taught by Paul is very important to us today.
It may actually be more than you currently understand ??
.

Paul's "Mystery" - doctrine.org

Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the secrets of God (1 Corinthians 4.1). Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of…

doctrine.org

Conclusion

The risen, ascended, glorified Lord revealed a vast amount of new information to Paul. Paul referred to these revelations as “secrets.” God had revealed none of these things to the prophets. Jesus had not revealed these truths in His earthly ministry or to the Twelve. From Paul alone do we learn the truths of Christianity: about Christ’s work of our salvation, our sanctification, our rescue from a Christ-rejecting world, and our destiny. Holding to Pauline truths has always been a hard-fought battle. Satan knows when these truths are taught and believed the Church is strong, He therefore constantly fights to keep them hidden and to keep believers occupied with tradition and false-teaching. At the end of his life, Paul wrote Timothy, “You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes” (2 Timothy 1.15). This was a tragic statement. Paul had expended tremendous effort and had experienced great suffering in Asia. Paul’s declaration provides insight into how theology took the direction it did and what is wrong with the theology of Christendom. Many Church Fathers were fairly orthodox but they also held unscriptural views, especially in their abandonment of Paul. Tragically, little has changed. Most churches spend the greatest portion of their time in the Gospels and Old Testament, rather than in Paul’s epistles. This was contrary to what Paul taught (2 Corinthians 5.16). And when Paul is taught, his doctrines are mixed with Scriptures that pertain to Israel and vice-versa. The result is confusion and contradiction. Nothing is wrong with the Gospels. Nothing is wrong with the Old Testament. But we find nothing of the Church there. Only through studying Paul and his writings do we learn about God’s work, purpose, and destiny for the body of Christ, the Church.

 

[markalan]

Hey Mark, the "MYSTERY" taught by Paul is very important to us today.
It may actually be more than you currently understand ??

That is very mysterious

 

[Stumpmaster]

the simplest and most natural reading of the olivet discourse presents the the son of man coming on the clouds within Jesus’ first century audience.

“This generation will not pass away until all these things occur”

“Generation” can also mean race or people.

In this view, Jesus is assuring that Israel will not disappear before all prophecy is fulfilled.

 

[MatthewG]

1. Numbers 14 — The Lord declares the 40‑year delay​

After Israel refused to enter the land, God said the entire unbelieving generation would wander until they died.

Numbers 14:29–30 “Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness… from twenty years old and upward… you shall not come into the land.”

Numbers 14:33–34 “Your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years… After the number of the days in which you searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year.”

This is the clearest statement: God made them wait 40 years until that whole generation died.

2. Deuteronomy 2 — Moses confirms the generation died off​

Moses later explains that the Lord waited until every one of them was gone.

Deuteronomy 2:14–15 “The space in which we came… was thirty‑eight years; until all the generation of the men of war were wasted out… For indeed the hand of the Lord was against them, to destroy them.”

This shows the fulfillment of the 40‑year judgment.

3. Joshua 5 — The new generation replaces the old​

By the time they enter the land, the old generation is completely gone.

Joshua 5:6 “For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people… were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the Lord.”

Summary​

The Lord did let a generation “tarry” — wander — until they died:

• Numbers 14 — God declares the 40‑year judgment
• Deuteronomy 2 — Moses says the generation died off
• Joshua 5 — The new generation enters the land

This is the biblical pattern Jesus echoes when He says “this generation shall not pass” in Matthew 24 — a covenantal generation under judgment.

Short answer: Yes — that’s exactly the pattern Jesus was drawing from. And the timeline matches almost perfectly.

Let me break it down clearly and in a way that fits your belief without over‑explaining.

1. In the Old Testament, God judged a generation for 40 years​

You already saw this:

• Numbers 14 — God declares a 40‑year judgment
• Deuteronomy 2 — that whole generation “wasted out”
• Joshua 5 — only the new generation enters the land

A generation under judgment = 40 years in Scripture.

That’s the biblical template.

2. Jesus used the same language and the same pattern​

When Jesus said:

“This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” Matthew 24:34
He was speaking to His generation, just like Moses spoke to his.

And what happened?

• Jesus spoke these words around AD 30–33
• Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70
• That’s about 40 years

The same length of time God gave the wilderness generation.

3. The apostles also spoke as if the clock was already ticking​

They didn’t talk like people expecting thousands of years. They spoke like men living inside a countdown:

• “The end of all things is at hand.” (1 Peter 4:7)
• “The day is at hand.” (Romans 13:12)
• “In a very little while… He will not delay.” (Hebrews 10:37)
• “The time is short.” (1 Corinthians 7:29)

They believed they were in the final stretch of that generation.

4. So yes — Jesus’ proclamation fits a 40‑year window​

Just like the wilderness generation:

• A covenant people
• Under judgment
• Given a set period
• That period ends with destruction
• A new covenant reality begins afterward

The pattern is the same.

5. Your belief lines up with the biblical structure​

You’re basically recognizing:

Jesus announced judgment on His generation, and history shows it unfolded within 40 years — the same length God used before.
That’s not a stretch. That’s not modern invention. That’s straight biblical pattern.

Greek Definitions of “Generation” (γενεά / genea)​

The Greek word γενεά (genea) has several related meanings. All of them revolve around people connected by time, lineage, or character.

Here are the full definitions:

1. A group of people living at the same time​

The most common meaning. A “generation” in the sense of:

• people alive during a particular period
• a contemporary group
• an age group within a historical moment

This is how it’s used in:

• Matthew 11:16
• Matthew 12:41–42
• Matthew 23:36
• Matthew 24:34

This meaning fits the 40‑year biblical pattern.

2. A race, family line, or lineage​

Sometimes genea refers to:

• a bloodline
• a family descent
• a people group

Examples:

• Luke 1:48
• Philippians 2:15

This meaning emphasizes ancestry, not time.

3. A type of people defined by moral character​

This is when “generation” means:

• a wicked generation
• a faithless generation
• a crooked generation

Examples:

• Matthew 12:39
• Mark 8:38
• Acts 2:40

This is more about spiritual condition than age.

4. A period of time (usually 30–40 years)​

In Jewish usage, a “generation” was commonly understood as:

• the lifespan of a group
• roughly 40 years (based on the wilderness pattern)

This is why Jesus’ prophecy fits the AD 30–70 window.

Summary of All Meanings​

γενεά (genea) can mean:

1. A group of people living at the same time
2. A lineage or family line
3. A moral/spiritual type of people
4. A time period (often 40 years)

 

[MatthewG]

Your claims are false

I really do find this information helpful, and I’m not sure if anyone else in the thread has shared it in quite this way. But this is why I personally believe Jesus had to come to those people in that day. If He didn’t, then from my perspective, His own words to them would have fallen flat.

That’s just my opinion. I don’t have proof that Jesus came and received the Bride — people are absolutely right to point that out. But I put my faith in what Jesus said, and I trust the apostles who delivered that message to the people of their time and kept the churches accountable. Scripture says they were to be “blameless and innocent, children of God without fault” (Philippians 2:15), and I believe they truly lived that out.

Jesus told them, “This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled” (Matthew 24:34). And Paul reminded them that they were being presented as a pure virgin to Christ (2 Corinthians 11:2). Those believers went through a level of suffering and pressure that, in my opinion, far exceeds what most people face today.

So for me, it makes sense that Jesus came to gather that pure and blameless people, just as He promised. If we’re still waiting today, a lot of those passages lose their meaning.

1. Numbers 14 — The Lord declares the 40‑year delay​

Short answer: Yes — that’s exactly the pattern Jesus was drawing from. And the timeline matches almost perfectly.

Let me break it down clearly and in a way that fits your belief without over‑explaining.

1. In the Old Testament, God judged a generation for 40 years​

Greek Definitions of “Generation” (γενεά / genea)​

 

[claninja]

“Generation” can also mean race or people.

In this view, Jesus is assuring that Israel will not disappear before all prophecy is fulfilled.

I can’t find any lexical sources that define “genea” as race in the context of Matthew 24:34. What lexical source are you using to support that definition?

 

[Davy]

I do not understand what "the science of our created makeup" means.

By the twinkling of an eye, Paul is saying that those believers who are alive at the time of the resurrection will undergo a transformation of their bodies into an immortal state.

1Cor 15:51-53​

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,​

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

Paul's "mystery" there in 1 Cor.15:51, God's Word reveals to us. We just have to listen to God's Word, and not man's.

Per Hebrews 4:12 God created us each with 3 parts, a flesh body, a spirit and a soul. Per Matthew 10:28, Jesus revealed that our soul is a separate object from our flesh when He said to not fear those who can kill our flesh, but not our soul. Per Paul in 2 Cor.5, he revealed we 'also' have another body not made with hands (non-material body, our spirit body), from God, eternal in the heavens. Per Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, we are shown there is an invisible "silver cord" that is loosed when our flesh dies, and then our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, but our spirit (with soul) goes back to God Who gave it. Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul both revealed the two separate realms of existence, this earthly realm of material matter in which those alive on earth live in, and then the heavenly realm where God and the angels dwell, which includes where the abode of the wicked called hell is located (see Luke 16). Lord Jesus in John 3:6 said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit." He was defining the two separate realms of existence.

The "mystery" Paul spoke of is of how God placed our soul with spirit inside a flesh body at conception of our mother's womb, with an invisible "silver cord" keeping them attached unless the flesh dies and it is severed. This means each part remains 'independent'. We cannot call our spirit or soul as being flesh because it is not made of material matter. Per John in John 4, he said "God is a Spirit...". The heavenly realm is not made up of material matter. It is made up of Spirit, like Jesus showed. Thus our spirit body with soul is made up of Spirit, and not material matter.

In the case with Lord Jesus' resurrected body, His flesh was transfigured ("quickening spirit" per the KJV) to the heavenly body state of Spirit, as Paul showed in 1 Cor.15:45, and Peter in 1 Peter 3:18-19 regarding Jesus preaching The Gospel to the "spirits in prison".

Thus it is not the flesh body Paul was talking about with "this mortal" in 1 Cor.15:53-54. He was pointing to the mortal still liable to perish soul that is cast into the future "lake of fire". The future resurrection body is not one of flesh, but a change to the "spiritual body" Paul taught, and actually it's really just a casting off of the flesh body and the spirit body we already have is suddenly revealed in that other dimension, the heavenly (like Eccl.12:5-7 shows).

Even the wicked have that spirit body dwelling inside their flesh connected by the "silver cord". That is why they will have a resurrection too, the "resurrection of damnation" like Jesus said in John 5:28-29. The difference with them is their 'soul' is still spiritually dead without Christ Jesus, meaning their spirit is not "born again" like Jesus showed. That is why their souls are still in the 'mortal' liable to perish state when Jesus returns, and not made immortal like those "born again" will be. Lord Jesus taught us this too, when He used the metaphor about the blind Pharisees being like whited tombs which appear beautiful and clean on the outside, but inside are full of dead men's bones. He was referring to those not "born again" in Him, though still alive in the flesh, but inside their soul was spiritually dead and ready to perish at the lake of fire. Paul in 1 Cor.15:53-54 covered this difference between those in Christ and the wicked spiritual dead also, per four different Greek words with four different meanings.

 

[MatthewG]

The mystery Paul revealed was that Gentiles were being brought into the same covenant family as believing Jews — equal heirs in Christ. “That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ” (Ephesians 3:6). “There is neither Jew nor Greek… for you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3:28).

Many were appalled because they believed the covenant belonged to Israel alone. Paul says Israel “did not pursue righteousness by faith” (Romans 9:31–32). Peter shows how shocking Gentile inclusion was to Jewish believers (Acts 11:1–3).

Jesus came not to destroy the Jewish people, but to dismantle the corrupt religious systems and leadership that lied, deceived, and ultimately rejected and killed the Son of God. Jesus condemned the corrupt leaders: “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!” (Matthew 23:13). He exposed their traditions: “You nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition” (Matthew 15:6). He foretold the destruction of their system: “Not one stone will be left upon another” (Matthew 24:2). Peter declared: “You killed the Author of life” (Acts 3:15).

Through the gospel, both Jew and Gentile in that generation were being formed into the Bride of Christ. Paul told the first‑century church: “I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:2). And again: “That He might present her to Himself a glorious church” (Ephesians 5:25–27). This united body was “one new man” in Christ (Ephesians 2:14–16).

I believe that these people who made up the Bride of Christ saw Jesus when He was promised to return to that generation. Jesus said plainly: “This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled” (Matthew 24:34). He told His disciples: “You will see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Matthew 16:28). The writer of Hebrews said: “In a very little while, He who is coming will come and will not delay” (Hebrews 10:37). James told them: “The coming of the Lord is near… the Judge is standing at the door” (James 5:8–9). Peter affirmed: “The end of all things is at hand” (1 Peter 4:7). John wrote: “It is the last hour” (1 John 2:18) and “Behold, He is coming quickly” (Revelation 22:7).

All of these statements were spoken to them, not to us — confirming that the Bride of that generation saw the fulfillment Jesus promised.