Christ has already returned ?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul absolutely references “the church” in Ephesians 5, but that doesn’t change who he was talking to or the covenant moment they were living in. When Paul says “the church,” he isn’t suddenly shifting to a timeless, universal, all‑future body. He’s speaking about the first‑century community of believers who were actually alive, actually waiting for Christ’s appearing, and actually part of the covenant Bride.

The church is simply a term that refers to those who belong to Christ. That includes you and me and all who belong to Christ.

He even frames the whole letter to “the saints who are in Ephesus” (Eph. 1:1).

This comes back to what I was saying before. You know that the book of John was primarily addressed to believers who were alive at that time, right? Yet, you have no problem acknowledging that John 3:16 and other verses in the book still apply to us today. So, this argument you're making in regards to who the book of Ephesians was address to is not a valid argument. If it was, you should apply it to all of the books of the Bible and you know that's not a reasonable thing to do.

The audience doesn’t magically change just because he uses the word “church” in a broader sense.

Does John's audience of contemporary believers in the book of John change in John 3:16? No. Yet, you have no problem with applying that verse still today.

Paul regularly uses “the church” to describe the collective body of believers of his own generation—the same people he says Christ would return for soon (Hebrews 10:37), the same people he says were being prepared as a Bride (Revelation 19:7).

Obviously, you and I didn't exist yet at that time, so he couldn't address us specifically. However, he was not claiming that what he was saying only applied to the church as it existed at that time. That would be like saying that John 3:16 and other verses only applied to the time it was written.

So Ephesians 5 isn’t Paul talking to us today.

But, you say John 3:16 is still talking to us today. You're not being consistent.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol people say "the holy spirit tells me this or God told me this" all the time.

Do you believe just every single person that says that to you?

I just go by the spirit of Christ which is said to produce love, mercy, kindness, faithfulness, longsuffering...

Idk what you trying to say by that notion alone.

If you can't back up your claims with scripture, then why are you here? This forum is a place where people discuss end times Bible doctrine (and sometimes other Bible doctrines) and debate is expected. It's also expected that you should be able to back up your claims with scripture instead of just saying that the Holy Spirit told you what you believe is true.

 

[MatthewG]

@Spiritual Israelite you can believe what you want. I believe Jesus came and took the bride as promised, I mean if you dont and you believe you are someone whom is special and chosen by God and you are gonna see him and you are gonna go be with him and you are gonna escape death perhaps i dont know everything you believe but have at my guy.

Im not someone to stop you.

 

[MatthewG]

Consider the Roman historian Josephus about AD 70

Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God
himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did
so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to
see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus
there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued
a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which
preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened
bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus,[Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the
night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright
day time; which lasted for half an hour.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jesus in the sky saving His church in Israel from the great tribulation ?

Matt 24:40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.
Matt 24:42 Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.

Hey Prodeo, good afternoon you know what this reminds me also? The people that mention in Revelation that could have repented but they continued instead to curse God.

 

[MatthewG]

If you can't back up your claims with scripture, then why are you here? This forum is a place where people discuss end times Bible doctrine (and sometimes other Bible doctrines) and debate is expected. It's also expected that you should be able to back up your claims with scripture instead of just saying that the Holy Spirit told you what you believe is true.

If you believe the holy spirit is telling you to call me a liar and a heretic and a person who has been decieved by the devil.

Why dont you do that? Why not just be honest. Im someone who states people should just be real with God. Tell him everything, even when you angry and upset and mad, and when you are glad and happy and thankful, or sad and depressed whatever it is tell him.



You can't prove God exist, you just believe by faith. Can you prove God exist? You going at this in the wrong way, @Spiritual Israelite

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite you can believe what you want. I believe Jesus came and took the bride as promised,

I believe what is taught in scripture and I'm backing up my view with scripture. You are not. You are trying to back up your claims with logic that you are not applying consistently throughout the Bible. Somehow, you think that what Paul wrote in Ephesians only applies to that time period, but in the case of other books like John that also were primarily addressed to a certain audience, you have no problem with applying verses from there still today, such as John 3:16. There's no consistency in your approach.

I mean if you dont and you believe you are someone whom is special and chosen by God and you are gonna see him and you are gonna go be with him and you are gonna escape death perhaps i dont know everything you believe but have at my guy.

LOL. Okay, "my guy". I don't believe I'm more special than anyone else. Those who are in the church are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:26-29), so we are all considered to be special and chosen by God. As for you saying something about escaping death, when did I ever say anything about that? I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, if that's what you're implying. I'm an amillennialist.

Im not someone to stop you.

Now there's something we can agree on.

 

[MatthewG]

I believe what is taught in scripture and I'm backing up my view with scripture. You are not. You are trying to back up your claims with logic that you are not applying consistently throughout the Bible. Somehow, you think that what Paul wrote in Ephesians only applies to that time period, but in the case of other books like John that also were primarily addressed to a certain audience, you have no problem with applying verses from there still today, such as John 3:16. There's no consistency in your approach.


LOL. Okay, "my guy". I don't believe I'm more special than anyone else. Those who are in the church are all one in Christ Jesus (Galatians 3:26-29), so we are all considered to be special and chosen by God. As for you saying something about escaping death, when did I ever say anything about that? I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture, if that's what you're implying. I'm an amillennialist.


Now there's something we can agree on.

Okay. I back up my view with scripture. So what... I believe by faith Jesus came. I dont need proof. You can't prove God exist.

We exist in the same wavelength of thought. You just going about it in a bad way.

 

[MatthewG]

We can't even prove that Jesus rose again, we just believe it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you believe the holy spirit is telling you to call me a liar and a heretic and a person who has been decieved by the devil.

Why dont you do that? Why not just be honest.

LOL! Why would I do that when it's not what I believe? I believe you are mistaken in your eschatological beliefs, but I haven't seen you lie about anything. You seem to be pretty honest about what you believe. You are obviously a very sensitive person who gets easily offended and maybe you can't help that. But, you don't need to accuse me of thinking things about you that I'm not just because maybe others have said those things about you.

Im someone who states people should just be real with God. Tell him everything, even when you angry and upset and mad, and when you are glad and happy and thankful, or sad and depressed whatever it is tell him.

That's a good thing.

You can't prove God exist, you just believe by faith. Can you prove God exist? You going at this in the wrong way, @Spiritual Israelite

I have no idea of what point you were intending to make here. Can you clarify? You think I'm wrong by backing up what I believe with scripture and wanting you to do the same?

 

[rockytopva]

Truth... Let's examine it!

Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself ? - Ecclesiastes 7:6

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. - 1 Corinthians 3

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. - 2 Corinthians 12:7

If God is going to take people who think they are wise... And deal with them... It should be common sense to address issues that may be intended to be hid from us with great humility.

 

[MatthewG]

Truth... Let's examine it!

Be not righteous over much; neither make thyself over wise: why shouldest thou destroy thyself ? - Ecclesiastes 7:6

18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. - 1 Corinthians 3

And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. - 2 Corinthians 12:7

If God is going to take people who think they are wise... And deal with them... It should be common sense to address issues that may be intended to be hid from us with great humility.

I just use the scripture to back up my claims. Has nothing to do with being wise unless being smart and useful when it comes to sharing the bible is a viable thing cause the bible is the source of information.

WE can be honest and say we can't prove God exist - but people say they can.... but it takes faith to believe God exist.

Just look at the first verse of Genesis. "In the beginning God."


We have the sky, and we have the history and we have Jesus and we have the apostles.

But Matthew can't call down the Sheikan glory and say "GOD SHOW YOURSELF!~"

 

[MatthewG]

LOL! Why would I do that when it's not what I believe? I believe you are mistaken in your eschatological beliefs, but I haven't seen you lie about anything. You seem to be pretty honest about what you believe. You are obviously a very sensitive person who gets easily offended and maybe you can't help that. But, you don't need to accuse me of thinking things about you that I'm not just because maybe others have said those things about you.


That's a good thing.


I have no idea of what point you were intending to make here. Can you clarify? You think I'm wrong by backing up what I believe with scripture and wanting you to do the same?

I never said you were wrong. I just been sharing information. You find me a quote where I said you were wrong then Ill apologize.

 

[MatthewG]

Im okay with being wrong and looked @ like a weirdo.

Im okay with that I dont care to be condemned people, and they can call me a heretic a lunatic a child of the devil.

None of that stuff matters to me cause I just share the bible... I just share information either people see for what it is worth.

Or they try to destory it. Doesn't make a difference to me I just know Ive been making progress regardless cause people can't dicate peoples faith.


:)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never said you were wrong. I just been sharing information. You find me a quote where I said you were wrong then Ill apologize.

I didn't ever say that you said I was wrong. I mean, you're obviously disagreeing with me about some things, which can imply that, but you have never specifically said that I'm wrong. I was responding to you thinking that I believe you're a liar and so on and that's not what I believe about you. I think you are sharing what you believe honestly and not just making things up that you don't actually believe. So, I don't believe you are a liar.

 

[MatthewG]

I didn't ever say that you said I was wrong. I mean, you're obviously disagreeing with me about some things, which can imply that, but you have never specifically said that I'm wrong.

That's good that means I did great!

 

[ProDeo]

A lot of words Matthew but did you read and collate the scriptures I forwarded?

@MatthewG

1Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[ProDeo]

Hey Prodeo, good afternoon you know what this reminds me also? The people that mention in Revelation that could have repented but they continued instead to curse God.

Yes and following Josephus one million Jews were slaughtered when the walls of Jerusalem finally fell after a 3.5 year siege (Daniel comes to mind) and the horrors during those 3.5 year were destructive in Jerusalem, the famine, mothers killing their children to have something to eat. The great tribulation was from 66-70 (3.5 years Daniel spoke of).