Christian Predeterminism Exposed

[Gilligan]

Yes, but even us writing our own scripts--that is, our freewill, was "before the foundation of the world", and is only now made manifest, that "the man of sin is revealed."

We have no freedom nor will nor soul before being created on earth. No man was created before the foundation of the world was created. And we were not created when the first man Adam was created.

There was no man of sin, until the first man sinned, and the prophesied man of sin before Jesus comes again, may or may not already be on earth. But no man of sin, nor righteous Abel was created and born and lived before the world began.

Christ creates man in the womb, not before there was any womb of woman on earth. (Psalms 139)

If you are trying to say we spiritually did things before being born, that we now do physically, then it's not true. God is a Spirit and does all things Spiritually, but no man has done anything spiritually like God, before being born physically on earth. I don't know where all this philosophic like talk leads, but it isn't true nor real. It's an exercise in futility as is most philosophy of man.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (Rom 1)

 

[Gilligan]

You've missed the point.

The point is, all that is written was written "before the foundation of the world." Which is confirmed by the fact that man is created a mere "image."

If you think you and your body is a mere image of something, then you think to philosophically for your own good. We are and will be judged forever by what we are doing as well as even our imaginations. Our works are not just mere images but real events to be judged for.

In other words, our lives and our "works" are only news to us

And what we do now is news to Christ when He watches us doing it. And that news is only then immediately known by the Father in the beginning, because the Word was with God in the beginning.

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. (Gen 22)

What we do now is what Christ sees us doing, and so the Father foreknows it, but it is still not done, until it is done now. This is why most philosophy is vain, because it ends up having to assert obvious reality in response to unreal imaginings. It gets no one nowhere fast, and has nothing to do with what we are doing now.

But don't misunderstand--with God there is no "pre" anything (as He is the same always).

True. We are not as God in omniscience and everlasting life before He created first the world, and then man.

Therefore it is written as being "before"--only because it is "before" we experience it.

You didn't experience anything before you were born, and if you think you have, or are even now doing so before your birth, then I'm afraid your theoretical physics of spiritualism has lead you astray into some really 'lively imagination'.

We do not exist before we are the twinkle in our father's eyes, and especially not before the world began to exist, when God created the heaven and earth.

What we are doing now is the first time we ever do it and experience it. There is no reincarnation of man nor precarnation for man.

 

[Gilligan]

For those he foreknew and predestined ....

This is a misquote to teach something other than what the Bible says.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Does not God foreknow all men. Yes he does.

There isn't any angel nor man not foreknown by God from the beginning. Therefore, all men are created in His image. And so, all men are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. All men are predestinated to be conformed to Jesus' image, but not all men are being destined and conformed.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God creates, foreknows, calls and predestines all men the same, but not all choose to believe and answer His call. Though God creates and calls all men to Himself, some willingly accept His call, and others choose to reject it.

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live. (Deut 30)

The error is applying the creation, foreknowledge, and calling to His predetermined will in Christ, to just some men He has created for the good, and other men He created for the evil. Christ is not a respecter of persons when creating us, nor when judging us. He is neither an unjust judge nor unjust Creator.

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. (Eph 1)

Are not all men called? Yes all are called unto repentance:

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

All men are called to repent, believe the gospel, obey Jesus and obtain His inheritance in Christ, but only those that choose to answer His call, are in Christ and being destined to be what God predestines all men, which is to become born sons of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. (John 1)

Who is predestined? All men. What is predestined? Conforming to Christ. Who answers that call, only them being conformed to His image by faith. All are called, but not all are chosen, because all do not choose life in Christ.

 

[Gilligan]

God can sit outside of space and time and give His creatures free will

Only angels and men are created with hearts of free will to think, intend, and imagine. All other living creatures are only given the natural will to do what God says in natural law, which is to be fruitful and multiply. The just do it without thinking about it. Only man has power to think about something before doing it.

and see how the interaction of an infinite number of monkeys typing on an infinite number of typewriters plays out.

Monkey don't type nor speak with intelligence. And some men don't do so with intelligence.

And then He can intervene in space and time where it is necessary and set up the circumstances where His creature will freely make the decisions that get the outcome He wants. Hey, God has free will too.

That is why men do by being created in His image.

Are such decisions truly "free"? I'm not a philosopher.

Try doing something you don't want to do. Even when be forced physically or of necessity to do something, we still have free will to refuse and pay the cost.

For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? (Luke 14)

Animals don't count at all, much less the cost of something.

 

[Gilligan]

The culmination of all our determination to be predetermined from the start, will be realised when we receive Heavenly bodies, that can handle that level of predetermination (our present bodies can't, because they are not yet cut off, from sin).

I like this. I've been coming to the colucsion that all arecalled to be predestinated, but not all are answering that call to destinate themselves into His image.

We destinate ourselves to god predestined image for all men to be conformed to the image of His Son, but not all men do so.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

All are called to be predestined and conformed to God's image, but not all choose to answer that call of faith in Jesus.

 

[ScottA]

He was prophetically slain before creation, and so could be said to have been slain, because Christ keeps His word and promise. If he says he will do something, He will, because God cannot lie.

But it's not possible for Him to have already been slain, because the prophecy is of a man on earth with physical death.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Scripture prophecies of what shall come to pass, and so speaks of it in past tense, since it is Christ being prophesied of. He was not slain, wounded, nor bruised for our transgressions, before we transgressed. And it is physical bruising not just prophetical only.

Christ did not die before the world began, because God in heaven cannot die.



He was Christ in heaven before He made all things, and He was Christ on earth when made flesh. Christ was not slain in heaven, but only on earth as a man.


There was no fact of any man living before the world was created. And so there is no after the fact life of men. We may be actors, but we are not just acting out what was already done or predetermined to do.


And Scripture is written of that which is foreseen, not foredone. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

There is no fact of what is done, before it is done. There is only foreknowledge of the Father by foreseeing of the Word. Nothing is done until it is done, even if foreseen and known and prophesied.

And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. (Rev 16)

This is not yet done on this earth.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (Rev 21)

This is not yet done on the new earth, which has not yet been created.

We know it will be done as prophesied, so that we can foresee it with Scripture, but God has not yet said it is done, while dwelling among men on the new earth. It may be just as good as done, but not yet actually done.

To not understand the meaning of "before", is to not understand that time is a mere creation just as all the universe and the world are, and has no actual relevance to the things of God...except in revelation.

You're not getting it.

 

[Gilligan]

The great error of Christian determinism is trying to say only some men are created to be foreknown, called, and predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

All are called to be conformed to what God predestines His people to be, none are predestinated and preconformed.

Predestination is what all men are called to be conformed to in this life. Predestination is not who will be conformed to Jesus Christ.

 

[Gilligan]

To not understand the meaning of "before", is to not understand that time is a mere creation just as all the universe and the world are, and has no actual relevance to the things of God...except in revelation.

You're not getting it.

I get it, I just don't agree with it, nor have any use for it. There's nothing to reveal about us being and doing and experiencing anything before being born into the world, because there's no there there, and it serves no purpose to me to even try to think about it.

So, what practical results are from this teaching of your's? What has been changed in your life and actions as a direct result of it.

Knowledge apart from actionable results is nothing but vain philosophy as Paul says. Knowledge of the truth revealed by God, is for the express purpose of doing the truth and being conformed to the life of Christ.

So, how has this knowledge of your's changed you and your manner of life? or is it just something you like to talk about and teach?

 

[robert derrick]

Christians predeterminism, as I understand it from those that teach it, is a kind of no-choice-about-it faith and salvation. God has already decided who will believe Him unto salvation, and who will not.

If it were a simple matter of foreknowing who would and would not, then that is just the omniscience of God. However, I have found that the teaching of predeterminism includes God creating men and women differently. It suggests that God is a respecter of persons. He actually creates and makes some in His image with power to believe and willingness to obey Him, while others are not, or are created of a lesser image of God. It's like God picking and choosing the winners of life's lottery, when He creates us. Those who are determined by God to believe and obey, shall do so, because He creates them that way, and those who are not determined to do so, shall not, because He purposely creates them another lesser way.

I find this most offensive, and an accusation against the God that is love and would have all men to be saved by faith in His Son.

The main verse of the Bible they use most is John 5:16, Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

They use this to say we have no individual choice in the matter of believing and being saved, but each person is fated one way or the other. It's the Christian version of pagan divine fatalism, that Jesus Christ came to destroy.

In the verse, Jesus is not saying we have not chosen to believe He is the Christ, but rather we have not chosen Him to be the Christ of God. We must understand old paganism to understand what He was dispelling among His disciples. Pagans believed they could choose from among many gods, the one they most wanted to please and receive blessing and protection from. They could make one god of many into their 'patron god'. Whole cities would do so, such as Ephesus of Diana and Egyptian Thebes of Amun. Catholics have a version of it with patron saints.

What Jesus is telling us, is to not thinks as the pagans think, and suppose we are choosing who is the true Christ and Lord for ourselves, from among many gods, christs and lords. We do not choose Him to ourselves as the best candidate for God's Christ. We are not favoring Him with our own form of election, of who is the best of the gods for us.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

The Jews were trying to do the same thing, by trying to choose Jesus for themselves to be their very own personal king. Jesus would have none of it. Jesus is telling us that we do not choose Him from among other christs and gods to be our King and Lord, but that we are either to believe He is the one and only Christ of God, or not. And so, he chooses them that do believe from the heart, that He is indeed the only true Christ and Lord and Savior for men.

And so, it's not that we have no choice nor say in the matter. God neither creates us different from others to become saved believers, nor does Jesus choose us 'randomly' out of crowd to be His special people. The truth is that there is only one true choice to make: we either choose to believe He is the true Christ of God sent for our redemption by faith, or we choose not to.

We have not chosen and 'elected' Him to be Christ, but we choose to believe He is indeed Christ. And so, He chooses to elect us to be His people by His faith recieved and kept in our hearts.

Keeping His faith is always a matter of choice, because all that hear His word do receive the faith instantly into the heart, but not all keep His faith in the heart. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

All choose to have Jesus' faith sown in their hearts by hearing the word alone, but all hearers do not choose to do the word and keep His faith unto salvation and everlasting life. All choose to be hearers of the world, by hearing it, but only the few choose to be doers of the word by keeping it in their hearts.

If Christian predeterminism were true, and God does in fact make some people with power of will to believe and obey Him, and some He makes a lesser version of His image without such power, and then Jesus chooses us accordingly at some point in our lives, then the exhortation to keep and continue in the faith is a redundant waste of time. It would be like telling birds to keep flying in the air, and not stop and drop to the ground, or coaxing cars to continue burning fuel from a full gas tank.

Christian predeterminism makes no practical sense and is an abhorrent teaching, that God purposely and wilfully makes some men to do good, and others to do evil. That is what James calls a false accusation against God. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

I've written a thread long ago about predeterminism, or as you call it Christian determinism, and I never corrected it the way you have. I say well done. You have shown how John 15 ought be read. I only wish I had thought of it.

You rightly show how Jesus is not saying we have no choice in our faith and salvation, but rather we are not to act like pagans about it, and think we are choosing who the real Christ is, or choosing Jesus to be our Lord and Saviour from among other lords and saviours.

I'll go a step further in that we don't choose Jesus to be our Lord and Saviour period. I've never liked the sound of 'making Jesus our Saviour.' Jesus is also saying we are not doing that, when we receive Him through faith. We don't choose nor make Jesus anything. We either choose to believe Him, and so receive Him as the only true Lord and Christ, through the work of His Spirit, or we don't.

Jesus is the Lord and true Christ of God, whether anyone believes that or not, but we receive Him by believing and confessing His name. We choose to believe Him, because we want to, because we want His fellowship. And His promise is that all such believers from the heart are now chosen by Him to be His people and reconciled to God.

 

[ScottA]

We have no freedom nor will nor soul before being created on earth. No man was created before the foundation of the world was created. And we were not created when the first man Adam was created.

There was no man of sin, until the first man sinned, and the prophesied man of sin before Jesus comes again, may or may not already be on earth. But no man of sin, nor righteous Abel was created and born and lived before the world began.

Christ creates man in the womb, not before there was any womb of woman on earth. (Psalms 139)

If you are trying to say we spiritually did things before being born, that we now do physically, then it's not true. God is a Spirit and does all things Spiritually, but no man has done anything spiritually like God, before being born physically on earth. I don't know where all this philosophic like talk leads, but it isn't true nor real. It's an exercise in futility as is most philosophy of man.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (Rom 1)

Again, you're not getting it.

You say, "We have no freedom nor will nor soul before being created on earth. No man was created before the foundation of the world." Yet Jesus who became a man was conceived by God "before the foundation of the world."

You say, "There was no man of sin, until the first man sinned, and the prophesied man of sin before Jesus comes again." Yet Adam sinned--not in the world, but in the garden in the presence of God, after which "all in Adam" sinned in this world. Not "in the womb" (as you say) where each is only made manifest--but "all in Adam."

These things are all written, yet you say "It's an exercise in futility as is most philosophy of man." On the contrary, I have not been speaking of "futility" but of "vanity", as it is written, "All is vanity":

הֶ֫בֶל noun masculine vapour, breath​

​

Or as it has clearly been since the beginning: "image."

 

[Gilligan]

I've written a thread long ago about redeterminism, or as you call it Christian determinism, and I never corrected it the way you have. I say well done. You have shown how John 15 ought be read. I only wish I had thought of it.

Thanks. It just came to me while thinking about it. That's where God says He will reveal wisdom and truth to us by meditating on His word. It just hit me, that Jesus was dispelling the pagan frame of mind on personal gods and patron saints.

He can't be saying we have no choice in serving Him, because He tells us to make that choice once for all, and quit being double-hearted about it.

 

[ScottA]

I get it, I just don't agree with it, nor have any use for it. There's nothing to reveal about us being and doing and experiencing anything before being born into the world, because there's no there there, and it serves no purpose to me to even try to think about it.

So, what practical results are from this teaching of your's? What has been changed in your life and actions as a direct result of it.

Knowledge apart from actionable results is nothing but vain philosophy as Paul says. Knowledge of the truth revealed by God, is for the express purpose of doing the truth and being conformed to the life of Christ.

So, how has this knowledge of your's changed you and your manner of life? or is it just something you like to talk about and teach?

Denying all that was in Christ before the foundation of the world, is to deny all that has been revealed of Him.

And it is not my teaching...but "the revelation of Jesus Christ", by God. Explained.

 

[ScottA]

You didn't experience anything before you were born

That is not what I said at all.

I cautioned you not to misunderstand...but you did anyway. Thus, you have drawn the wrong conclusions, even regarding this whole matter.

 

[robert derrick]

The great error of Christian determinism is trying to say only some men are created to be foreknown, called, and predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

All are called to be conformed to what God predestines His people to be, none are predestinated and preconformed.

Predestination is what all men are called to be conformed to in this life. Predestination is not who will be conformed to Jesus Christ.

This is another good one. Someone else taught about how all men are called, and so only some are chosen, because not all men answer the common call of God to repent and believe His word.

You show further, than all men are foreknown of God, and not just some created by Him.

And your labelling that error as some being created less than God's image, and so not foreknown by Him, is excellent. Predestinarianism must teach God creates some men different from others. Some in His image to believe, and some in some other image to not believe.

This is the same teaching as being born with sin nature now. God creates some in His image to be saved, and He creates some in the image of the devil to rebel against Him.

 

[robert derrick]

You say, "We have no freedom nor will nor soul before being created on earth. No man was created before the foundation of the world." Yet Jesus who became a man was conceived by God "before the foundation of the world."

Whoa, hold on there. The Word was God, not conceived by God. Are you teaching Christ was created by God before the foundation of the world? That's what the JW's teach.

God and the Word were before creation, not any man. And the Word did not become a man until after creation and the first man, which is why He is called the second Adam.

Yet Adam sinned--not in the world, but in the garden in the presence of God, after which "all in Adam" sinned in this world.

Whoahoho again. Adam was not on planet earth, nor come into the world? Are you saying the garden was somewhere out of this world, and only after Adam sinned was he run out of the garden into this world?

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

This is planet earth in this world.

Not "in the womb" (as you say) where each is only made manifest--but "all in Adam."

Now you're saying all men and women were in Adam before the world, and we are only manifestations of Adam when entering the womb? Each soul and person is created individually by Christ, and is created the same way as Adam was, except not from the dust without the womb of a woman.

We are all individually still created the same way as Adam by the Spirit of God breathed into our nostrils in the womb and lightened by Christ coming into the world. And like Adam, we have all then sinned against God in the world. Other than that, I have nothing to do with Adam, nor he with me.

We were not all in Adam before the world began, and we have not all sinned with Adam, when he sinned. This must be some kind of source teaching for all men were made sinners before coming into the world, and it's false. The only way to be made a sinner is make ourselves transgressors by sinning, not by being in Adam sinning with him before and outside the world, and then born sinners into the world.

These things are all written, yet you say "It's an exercise in futility as is most philosophy of man." On the contrary, I have not been speaking of "futility" but of "vanity", as it is written, "All is vanity":

הֶ֫בֶל noun masculine vapour, breath​

​

Or as it as clearly been since the beginning: "Image."

So once again, what is the practical affect this thinking has had on you and your life? Even if it's just a new way of breathing, that would still be something tangible.

 

[Behold]

Lets say you decide today to have a Pizza, or drink some Tea.

Did God decide you would..... before you were born, or did God KNOW you would before you were born?

See it?

God knowing all you will do or think, before you showed up, is "Foreknowledge"..... that is Knowledge of what you are going to do Be-FORE you do it.

Does that make sense to you, reader?
It didnt to John Calvin, as his warped brain decided that if God Knows everything you will do, before you are born, then that must mean that God CAUSED you to do everything you ever did or will do. = no free will.


See that warped understanding of "Foreknowledge"?

That was Calvin's inability to understand that God knowing everything, before it happens, is not the same as God CAUSING everything to happen.

Calvin died never understanding "foreknowledge" but before he died, he created a twisted demonic theology..."predestined elect".... that is based on him not understanding that God knowing that you are going to have a Pizza and some Tea, is not the same as God causing you to do it.

Do you understand "FORE-Knowledge" now? That is knowledge of will happen next, or "be-fore" it happens... = FOREKnowledge.

 

[robert derrick]

That is not what I said at all.

I cautioned you not to misunderstand...but you did anyway. Thus, you have drawn the wrong conclusions, even regarding this whole matter.

Well, it's your own fault, because you don't write things plainly. I've spoken to you before about this doctrinal language you use, is mostly lost on me. I have to try and decipher it, and then ask you if that is what you mean, and it can go on for three or four posts, because you finally say something outright.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech.

If you have any hope of me understanding you the first time, then let's make a deal. After you write in your usual way, conclude it by saying, "That all means this..." Finish with a conclusion, that is so simple and crystal clear, that I can't mistake you for saying something else. Thanks.

 

[360watt]

If I understand you right, then I agree with your point of making faith a work, that I have never thought of before. Determinism says that faith or unbelief is a determined work of God at creation. It goes along with the idea that God works to create faith in some people, but not in others at the beginning of our creation itself.

It says God works to create some with faith and others with unbelief. God's work never results in unbelief with determined will to disobey Him

Good point.

Yeah.. I mean, I'm neither calvinist nor arminian. I'm what you call a 'biblicist' .

So arminianism.. usually means eternal salvation, though it is thru free will.. can be undone/lost.. which I don't believe can be done.

And, like you , I don't accept calvinists making putting your faith in Christ to be a work.

I also don't agree with the calvinist saying a converted person IS going to be faithful. That if they aren't.. they were never saved.

I don't think scripture says that. We all have troubles with sin..even after being saved.

Saved people who aren't faithful have a distant relationship with Jesus. But they aren't condemned to hell.

Yeah, so back to faith being a work.. that they like to try to say it is..

It isn't a work because it's the Holy Spirit working it in us. Being saved under His conviction. Him doing the saving. All the sinner does is 'give in' to that..accept it. Although.. they can resist the conviction, because it's not forced.

 

[robert derrick]

This is another good one. Someone else taught about how all men are called, and so only some are chosen, because not all men answer the common call of God to repent and believe His word.

And so you are saying that all are called but only few chosen, because not all men repent. And so, it's not just speaking of those that already answered the call but failed to follow through. I like it.

And your labelling that error as some being created less than God's image, and so not foreknown by Him, is excellent. Predestinarianism must teach God creates some men different from others. Some in His image to believe, and some in some other image to not believe.

I say a movie once called "The children of a lesser God". That would fit.

This is the same teaching as being born with sin nature now. God creates some in His image to be saved, and He creates some in the image of the devil to rebel against Him.

People who believe the sin nature stuff at birth, are really saying either God is now making children for the devil, or the devil is now a creator and maker of sinful men and women on his own, and not God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. They are saying Christ is no longer the only Maker, and has even turned over the creating of babes in the womb to the devil.

It's another absurd accusation against God, that He either makes sinners Himself, or He tempts man to sin by letting the devil make them in the womb.

 

[robert derrick]

Yeah.. I mean, I'm neither calvinist nor arminian. I'm what you call a 'biblicist' .

Sola Scripture is the only way to be like the Bereans. Teaching and tradition is only as good as the Bible that agrees with it.

So arminianism.. usually means eternal salvation, through it is thru free will.. can be undone/lost.. which I don't believe can be done.

I don't see it as undoing or losing anything. We are either being saved and doing His will, or we are not doing His will and not being saved.

Determinism says two false things: God creates some to believe and others not. And God guarantees those that believe will be conformed to His image. Neither is true. Some begin the race but aren't crowned, because they return to the filth of the world, or they don't finish lawfully, but running it their own way in their own righteousness.

In the end, the result is the same: only those being conformed to Jesus' image are those that believe unto salvation, and that call to life is for all men, that are created equally in the image of God.

And, like you , I don't accept calvinists making putting your faith in Christ to be a work.

We work at our faith, but we don't work it up for ourselves. We either believe Jesus is the Christ or we don't, and it's not a work of God that he does for certain few at creation. It's the work He does for any man that would freely repent by his own will and believe the gospel.

I used to be a Christian that tried to work up some faith in myself, especially in matters of healing, but that's not the faith that God freely gives to all that hear and trust in Him.

I also don't agree with the calvinist saying a converted person IS going to be faithful. That if they aren't.. they were never saved.

True. Some Christians talk like they must have pigs and dogs all along, and only fooling everyone else. Being a pig and dog is easy to spot. You don't even have to look for it. It's just there.

I don't think scripture says that. We all have troubles with sin..even after being saved.

That's why f we sin, we can still confess and be forgiven. Being saved is not necessarily one shot thing. It's still possible to sin, but we are not out of the race for good, if we do. We still have an Advocate with the Father and propitiation for sinning just like everyone else in the world.

Saved people who aren't faithful have a distant relationship with Jesus. But they aren't condemned to hell.

I rather would say no relationship nor fellowship with Jesus while walking in darkness.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:


There is no part reconciliation, part fellowship, part light, and part relationship with Christ.

It isn't a work because it's the Holy Spirit working it us. Being saved under His conviction. Him doing the saving. All the sinner does is 'give in' to that..accept it. Although.. they can resist it the conviction, because it's not forced.

True. It isn't work to believe Jesus. We either do are we don't. We don't work up faith to convince yourself of something. We don't make ourselves believe nor do His will.

Therefore said I, The Philistines will come down now upon me to Gilgal, and I have not made supplication unto the LORD: I forced myself therefore, and offered a burnt offering.

The main difference between Saul and David, is that David believed and loved God from the heart, so that God could continue working with David, but could not continue doing anything good with Saul.