Christians are not under the New Covenant

[David in NJ]

No, theefaith is riding his hobby horse in this thread, just like he does in all threads. He needs to just go home.

Well, he needs to run to Christ alone for salvation and cast off idolatry - as Abraham did and myself as well being raised a RC.

 

[David in NJ]

DID WE READ the TITLE OF THIS POST . Who on earth said that line .
The christain ............IS THE ONLY ONE UNDER THE NEW COVENANT .
Which includes both beleiving jews and gentiles .
All else , including all jews and gentiles are under the death sentence .
JESUS MUST BE BELIEVED IN .

AMEN

 

[Truman]

One thing I am sure of is that I am under the Blood...and in that, I rejoice! Shalom!

 

[amigo de christo]

One thing I am sure of is that I am under the Blood...and in that, I rejoice! Shalom!

Put those hands up and praise the glorious wonderous Lord .

 

[Mungo]

So why have you not been baptised? You said in I have a question that remains unanswered: that you had been Christened in a font at 16 days old. Sprinkling of some water onto a baby's head, and giving the baby a name, is not baptism. Baptism is complete immersion into water (the word means to immerse or submerge), symbolising being buried in death, and it is a declaration of the person's faith in Jesus. A baby cannot have knowledge of and faith in Jesus. Romans 6:3-4 (WEB):

Or don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? (4) We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.​

Baptise comes from the Greek word baptizo which means immerse or dip or plunge. However I think it is wrong to treat baptizo as simply a Greek word with various meanings. It is the name of a Jewish, and later Christian, ritual and therefore expresses the meaning of the ritual and not of all the Greek word possibilities.

Jesus gave the formula for baptism in Mt 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". He didn't Say anybody had to immersed.
As for "sprinkling", Ezekial prophesied it:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you…. (Ez 36:25-27).

Also then Jewish purification rituals sometime used sprinkling:
“Take the Levites from among the Israelites and cleanse them. Thus you shall do to them, to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of purification on them, have them shave their whole body with a razor and wash their clothes, and so cleanse themselves……The Levites purified themselves from sin and washed their clothes” (Number 8: 6-8 & 21).

In Baptism (in water) were are made new (Ti 3:5); our sins are forgiven (Acts 2:38); brought into the kingdom of God (Jn 3:5), made members of the Body of Christ, the Church (Acts 2:47); brought into the New Covenant (Col 2:11-12).

 

[keithr]

Baptise comes from the Greek word baptizo which means immerse or dip or plunge.

Jesus gave the formula for baptism in Mt 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit". He didn't Say anybody had to immersed.

Well he did say "baptise them", which means to immerse in water!

As for "sprinkling", Ezekial prophesied it:

Sprinkling is not baptism though.

In Baptism (in water) were are made new (Ti 3:5);

Titus 3:5
(5) not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Compare with the story of Naaman, 2 Kings 5:11-14 (WEB):

(11) But Naaman was angry, and went away, and said, “Behold, I thought, ‘He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of Yahweh his God, and wave his hand over the place, and heal the leper.’
(12) Aren’t Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them, and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.
(13) His servants came near, and spoke to him, and said, “My father, if the prophet had asked you do some great thing, wouldn’t you have done it? How much rather then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean?’”
(14) Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.​

This is symbolic of baptism. Naaman dipped (immersed) himself in water, and his leprous flesh became new like a small child - symbolic of being immersed in death and rising born anew. It was a simple enough thing for Naaman to do, but if he hadn't have done it he would not have been healed. Likewise being baptised by full immersion is a simple enough thing for us to do, so why wouldn't we do it in obedience?

When Jesus was baptised he said to John the Baptist, “Allow it now, for this is the fitting way for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15), or as the Good News Bible puts it, "Let it be so for now. For in this way we shall do all that God requires". So I think we should be baptised by full immersion, if we have the opportunity.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Well he did say "baptise them", which means to immerse in water!

Sprinkling is not baptism though.

"16As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water." Matthew 3:16​

 

[Moriah's Song]

The book of Revelation, I've heard is under the new covenant.

Point 1- The book of Revelations, nor any book in the entire bible, NT or OT is under any of the covenants of God.....God's PEOPLE are under covenants. Believers in Christ are presently under the everlasting New Covenant. (See Hebrews)

Reason I am asking is because I recently came across this online Bible seminar on the book of Revelation - which is doing a series from chapters 1-22.

Point 2- Today you can find anything you want on the internet, BUT Satan also has unlimited sources like this one you came across. I could not watch anymore that about 2 minutes of that video before I shut it down as being useless.

Some of the points challenged my understanding and what I previously thought to be true, though all of it is biblical and backed up by scripture.

Since you don't say what those "points are that challenged your understand" I can't comment on because you don't say what your understanding is or was.

...though all of it is biblical and backed up by scripture.

This is troubling to me because it is SO EASY to be mislead these days. There are so many false teachers out there that have access to TV, radio and the internet that it boggles my mind. Then there are the writers who think they know all write books like Tim LaHay by the millions. After the book came the move "The Late Great Planet Earth" by Hal Lindsay that people now believe the movie more than they believe the truth of scripture. Then there are the seminaries and Bible Colleges that are dedicated to promoted the false theory of dispensationalism that got its beginning in the early 1800's in England and Scotland.

Would love to hear your thoughts, and also if you have any other recommendations when looking to understand the book or Revelation and the New Covenant

My thoughts are this:

1- Start with the Book of Genesis - especially chapters 2-4.
2- Move to the NT and the 4 gospels and read them 3 times.
3- Then move to the book of Acts and read that 3 times.
4- Move to the epistles and read those 3 times.
5- Then go back to Matthew and continue reading until you get to Jude.​

6- Do not focus on the book of Revelation and it's symbolism because there are so many different opinions about what chapter 13:1-4 mean that it will leave you shaking your head at some of those interpretations. Even scholars differ greatly so why should you or I think we can interpret them correctly? Not to say that the book is useless at all. It isn't in many parts that are easily read....like the messages to the churches and the last two chapters are great reading for those who wish to see what happens at the end of this age.

God Bless!

 

[Mungo]

Well he did say "baptise them", which means to immerse in water!

As I pointed out baptism is the name of a ritual not a definition of how it is performed.
According to A Jewish site whgen the Jews and Evangelists wrote in Greek they avoided the Greek words for bathe and bath because of the sexual connotations. The Greek communal bathing was a place of gossip (often crude), communal nudity and homosexuality. So they used the word baptizein (and its derivatives) instead. The word therefore expresses this ritual purification with water.

Sprinkling is not baptism though.

Actually Catholics don't ''sprinkle'. They pour water.
But as I pointed out Ezekial prophesied it:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you…. (Ez 36:25-27).

Also then Jewish purification rituals sometime used sprinkling:
“Take the Levites from among the Israelites and cleanse them. Thus you shall do to them, to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of purification on them, have them shave their whole body with a razor and wash their clothes, and so cleanse themselves……The Levites purified themselves from sin and washed their clothes” (Number 8: 6-8 & 21).

Titus 3:5
(5) not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

Compare with the story of Naaman, 2 Kings 5:11-14 (WEB):

(11) But Naaman was angry, and went away, and said, “Behold, I thought, ‘He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of Yahweh his God, and wave his hand over the place, and heal the leper.’
(12) Aren’t Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them, and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.
(13) His servants came near, and spoke to him, and said, “My father, if the prophet had asked you do some great thing, wouldn’t you have done it? How much rather then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean?’”
(14) Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.​

This is symbolic of baptism. Naaman dipped (immersed) himself in water, and his leprous flesh became new like a small child - symbolic of being immersed in death and rising born anew. It was a simple enough thing for Naaman to do, but if he hadn't have done it he would not have been healed. Likewise being baptised by full immersion is a simple enough thing for us to do, so why wouldn't we do it in obedience?

When Jesus was baptised he said to John the Baptist, “Allow it now, for this is the fitting way for us to fulfill all righteousness” (Matthew 3:15), or as the Good News Bible puts it, "Let it be so for now. For in this way we shall do all that God requires". So I think we should be baptised by full immersion, if we have the opportunity.

As you say baptism is symbolic. The symbol does not have to be an exact replica. Yes, the story of Naaman foreshadows christian baptism just as my quote from Ezekial does.

Here are some more OT quotes showing sprinkling for purification

The Lord said to Moses: Take the Levites from among the Israelites and purify them. This is what you shall do to them to purify them. Sprinkle them with the water of remission (Num 8:5-7)

Also Psalm 51
Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure. Hyssop was used for sprinkling (see Ex 12:22, Num 19:18).

The early Christians did not just immerse:
The Didache
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days" (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).

 

[Mungo]

"16As soon as Jesus was baptized, He went up out of the water." Matthew 3:16​

Jesus was baptised in a river. Rivers are below the riverbank. So you have to come up out of the water when you leave it whether you were immersed or just standing in it.

 

[keithr]

But as I pointed out Ezekial prophesied it:
I will sprinkle clean water upon you to cleanse you from all your impurities, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit within you…. (Ez 36:25-27).

That whole chapter is God talking to the nation of Israel. You should include the previous verse, and the next verse, to get some context, Ezekiel 36:24-25,28 (WEB):

(24) I will take you from every nation and country and bring you back to your own land.
(25) I will sprinkle clean water on you and make you clean from all your idols and everything else that has defiled you.
(28) Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors. You will be my people, and I will be your God.
​

It's not talking about baptism, and it doesn't apply to Christians.

The early Christians did not just immerse:
The Didache
"After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. If you have no living water, then baptize in other water, and if you are not able in cold, then in warm. If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Before baptism, let the one baptizing and the one to be baptized fast, as also any others who are able. Command the one who is to be baptized to fast beforehand for one or two days" (Didache 7:1 [ca. A.D. 70]).

Yes, the Church soon started to apostatize, as Paul foretold.

 

[keithr]

Jesus was baptised in a river. Rivers are below the riverbank. So you have to come up out of the water when you leave it whether you were immersed or just standing in it.

I don't think that is what it is describing:

Matthew 3:16-17 (WEB):
(16) As soon as Jesus was baptized, he came up out of the water. Then heaven was opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God coming down like a dove and lighting on him.
(17) Then a voice said from heaven, "This is my own dear Son, with whom I am pleased."

Mark 1:9-10
(9) In those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
(10) Immediately coming up from the water, he saw the heavens parting, and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.

Those verses are saying that as soon as Jesus rose up from the water God's spirit came down on him and God spoke from heaven. I wouldn't have thought it meant that after Jesus had waded back to the dry land the above happened - why would God have delayed?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Jesus was baptised in a river. Rivers are below the riverbank. So you have to come up out of the water when you leave it whether you were immersed or just standing in it.

No, you come up out of the water when you've been in it.

 

[keithr]

No, you come up out of the water when you've been in it.

And John the Baptist said, John 1:26 (WEB):

(26) John answered them, “I baptize in water, but among you stands one whom you don’t know.​

 

[Mungo]

That whole chapter is God talking to the nation of Israel. You should include the previous verse, and the next verse, to get some context, Ezekiel 36:24-25,28 (WEB):

(24) I will take you from every nation and country and bring you back to your own land.
(25) I will sprinkle clean water on you and make you clean from all your idols and everything else that has defiled you.
(28) Then you will live in the land I gave your ancestors. You will be my people, and I will be your God.
​

It's not talking about baptism, and it doesn't apply to Christians.

You get very selective about what in the OT applies to Christians today.
Do Christians get cleansed of Leprosy if they bathe in the Jordan?

Actually in a spiritual sense Ezekial does apply to Christians as Jesus ggathers people from every land and baptism brings them into the kingdom of God.

Yes, the Church soon started to apostatize, as Paul foretold.

What! The Church had apostatised by 70 AD?
Don't be ridiculous.

 

[Mungo]

I don't think that is what it is describing:
Matthew 3:16-17 (WEB):
(16) As soon as Jesus was baptized, he came up out of the water. Then heaven was opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God coming down like a dove and lighting on him.
(17) Then a voice said from heaven, "This is my own dear Son, with whom I am pleased."

Mark 1:9-10
(9) In those days, Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
(10) Immediately coming up from the water, he saw the heavens parting, and the Spirit descending on him like a dove.

Those verses are saying that as soon as Jesus rose up from the water God's spirit came down on him and God spoke from heaven. I wouldn't have thought it meant that after Jesus had waded back to the dry land the above happened - why would God have delayed?

Well that is your opinion. But that is all it is.
Do you really think all those people who came to John for baptism waded into the Jordan fully clothed and then had to go back to Jerusalem dripping wet?

 

[Mungo]

And John the Baptist said, John 1:26 (WEB):

(26) John answered them, “I baptize in water, but among you stands one whom you don’t know.​

To quote some of the most popular versions:
John 1:26
John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not (KJV)
John answered them, “I baptize with water; but among you stands one whom you do not know (RSV)
“I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands one you do not know (NIV)

 

[Mungo]

No, you come up out of the water when you've been in it.

If I paddle in the sea and just get my feet wet I still come up out of the water.

 

[keithr]

What! The Church had apostatised by 70 AD?
Don't be ridiculous.

Galatians 1:6 (ESV):
(6) I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—

Paul wrote Galatians a few months before his attendance at the Jerusalem Council in AD 49 (according to Book of Galatians Overview - Insight for Living Ministries).

 

[keithr]

Do you really think all those people who came to John for baptism waded into the Jordan fully clothed and then had to go back to Jerusalem dripping wet?

That depends on whether or not they lived in Jersalem! But yes, they would have got wet.