Popular doesn't necessarily mean correct! The Greek word 'en' is mostly translated as 'in'. As the Cambridge Bible notes says for verse 31, "‘With water’ is literally ‘in water’ here and John1:26."
Christians are not under the New Covenant
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So 'mostly translated' - i.e. most popular.
So you reject the 'most popular' Bible translation but accept the 'most popular' version according to the Cambridge Bible notes.
A trifle inconsistent!
Not wet as in a slight rain shower but soaked as falling into a river fully clothed.
Be realistic.
Nowhere does Scripture say that Christian baptism is full immersion.
A major early document, also known as The Teaching of The Twelve Apostles, is an apostate document.
You are getting desperate.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No.
Nobody talks like that.
Why are you assuming a person has to step into the water to get some to sprinkle on another person?
This is why we have denominations.
We're sick of churches that strain to rationalize what is obviously incorrect doctrine.
Denominations allow false movements to separate themselves from the true, and the true to separate themselves from the false.
Thank God for denominations! No more suffering under godless, Spirit-less leaders who teach falsehoods and threaten people they'll go to hell if they don't submit to them. Protestants are free. Free to find the truth, and free to walk in error if they so choose to. The sincere truth seeker will find the truth. He does not need a church organization to hem them in and threaten them if they seek truth on their own between them and God and other believers.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
"29I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them. 31Therefore be alert and remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears." Acts of the Apostles 20:29-31
I don't know the exact year, but Paul makes it clear it started upon his departure.
The new covenant most certainly is in effect, as Hebrews 8,9 and 10 state:
Hebrews 8 states Jesus is mediating, not will mediate, the new covenant, and in verses 8-10 it shows that covenant is the Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the House of Israel:
Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Hebrews 9 states that the new covenant Jesus mediates is His last will and Testament, that took effect at His death, as all last will and Testaments do:
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Notice that the called obtain the promised inheritance from the last will and Testament that took effect at His death, verse 9:15
God always has a law, and the new covenant is a legal document that gives the called an inheritance - as in inheriting eternal life.
Hebrews 10 confirms that the once for all time sacrificial offering of Himself established the Jeremiah 31 new covenant where God puts His laws in the hearts and minds of those being sanctified:
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”
Heb 10:17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Currently per Romans 11 only a remnant of the elect nation of Israel believes in Jesus and is in their own new covenant God has made with the House of Israel and thus have Gods indwelling Holy Spirit within them, which is how Gods laws are written in their hearts, and the rest are blinded until the deliverer comes out of Zion.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
Gentiles as wild Olive branches are grafted onto the Olive tree of Israel, amid the natural branches, and thus by faith gentiles enter into the new covenant with the House of Israel.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Hebrews 8 states Jesus is mediating, not will mediate, the new covenant, and in verses 8-10 it shows that covenant is the Jeremiah 31 new covenant with the House of Israel:
Heb 8:6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.
Heb 8:8 For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
Heb 8:9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Hebrews 9 states that the new covenant Jesus mediates is His last will and Testament, that took effect at His death, as all last will and Testaments do:
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Notice that the called obtain the promised inheritance from the last will and Testament that took effect at His death, verse 9:15
God always has a law, and the new covenant is a legal document that gives the called an inheritance - as in inheriting eternal life.
Hebrews 10 confirms that the once for all time sacrificial offering of Himself established the Jeremiah 31 new covenant where God puts His laws in the hearts and minds of those being sanctified:
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
Heb 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,”
Heb 10:17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”
Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Currently per Romans 11 only a remnant of the elect nation of Israel believes in Jesus and is in their own new covenant God has made with the House of Israel and thus have Gods indwelling Holy Spirit within them, which is how Gods laws are written in their hearts, and the rest are blinded until the deliverer comes out of Zion.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
Gentiles as wild Olive branches are grafted onto the Olive tree of Israel, amid the natural branches, and thus by faith gentiles enter into the new covenant with the House of Israel.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
I'm sorry, I should have been more precise. When I said, "The Greek word 'en' is mostly translated as 'in'" I meant that of all of the occurrences of the Greek word 'en' the majority are translated as 'in' (compared with less than 5% of the time it is translated as 'with'). From the Online Bible Greek Lexicon:
AV-in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 265; 2801
So it's not the most "popular" translation, it's most frequently translated as 'in' in the KJV. The Cambridge Bible notes was pointing out that although the KJV translates it as 'with', a more literal (and correct) translation is 'in'.
I think you're getting desperate if you're claiming that Paul's letter to the Galations is not to be trusted! If you're not claiming that, then I don't understand why you're mentioning a non-Biblical document and claiming that I am desperate.
I didn't suggest that anyone stepped into water to get sprinkled.
But they would step into the water to have it poured over their head as we mostly do these days.
I think you're getting desperate if you're claiming that Paul's letter to the Galations is not to be trusted! If you're not claiming that, then I don't understand why you're mentioning a non-Biblical document and claiming that I am desperate.
I never said Paul;'s letter was not to be trusted.
What is not to be trusted is your personal and fallible interpretation of it and your personal and fallible application to this issue.
So that is their opinion.
Bible Gateway gives 61 English translations. Of those 50 say "with"
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
op: "Christians" not under the New Covenant
But, HEBREW "christians" ARE under the New Covenant? Confusion, imho.
Of course, that's the Implication Of the scholar who posted Many Scriptures
From "HEBREWS" {hmm, for the "Jews"?}
And, then tries to add them TO/Mix them Up With Scriptures From
"ROMANS" {hmmm ..... For The Body Of CHRIST?}, In order to
make us believe that WE, Today, Under GRACE, are under the NC.
IF we are "under The New Covenant," then us ignorant and unlearned
have a FEW questions:
(1) Where are ALL the OBEDIENT, Under this "claimed New Covenant, TODAY,"
That God Gave His Spirit, AND, "CAUSES" ALL of them to "OBEY ALL of HIS Commandments"??? Of course, us Ignorant And Unlearned Cannot discern:
God's Plain And Clear Scriptures Correctly, Correct?:
"And I WILL Put My Spirit Within you, and CAUSE you to walk in My
Statutes, and ye SHALL KEEP My Judgments, and DO THEM!" (Eze_36:27)
ok..ONLY ONE question, And This:
Conclusion: IF you CAN NAME me ONE person today, who FITS THIS,
then HE IS THE ONLY ONE who is "under the NEW COVENANT," Correct?
caveat: I DID meet a so-called "holiness" man once, and asked him what
he "called getting angry with his wife"? He said: "Oh, that's just a MISTAKE!"
Gbu
But, HEBREW "christians" ARE under the New Covenant? Confusion, imho.
Of course, that's the Implication Of the scholar who posted Many Scriptures
From "HEBREWS" {hmm, for the "Jews"?}
And, then tries to add them TO/Mix them Up With Scriptures From
"ROMANS" {hmmm ..... For The Body Of CHRIST?}, In order to
make us believe that WE, Today, Under GRACE, are under the NC.
IF we are "under The New Covenant," then us ignorant and unlearned
have a FEW questions:
(1) Where are ALL the OBEDIENT, Under this "claimed New Covenant, TODAY,"
That God Gave His Spirit, AND, "CAUSES" ALL of them to "OBEY ALL of HIS Commandments"??? Of course, us Ignorant And Unlearned Cannot discern:
God's Plain And Clear Scriptures Correctly, Correct?:
"And I WILL Put My Spirit Within you, and CAUSE you to walk in My
Statutes, and ye SHALL KEEP My Judgments, and DO THEM!" (Eze_36:27)
ok..ONLY ONE question, And This:
Conclusion: IF you CAN NAME me ONE person today, who FITS THIS,
then HE IS THE ONLY ONE who is "under the NEW COVENANT," Correct?
caveat: I DID meet a so-called "holiness" man once, and asked him what
he "called getting angry with his wife"? He said: "Oh, that's just a MISTAKE!"
Gbu
The early church fathers wrote that baptism was done in river water by full submersion whenever possible.
The Didache, an anonymous Christian treatise that dates between the years 65 and 80, gives specific instructions as to where baptism should take place.
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
This early instruction explains that baptism could be administered through full immersion in a river or other “living water,” or it could be done by simply pouring water three times over the head. Both forms were valid and used depending on the situation. Fasting, as can be seen in the quote above, was also a vital part of the preparation for baptism and included both the “baptizer” (i.e. the priest or deacon) and the one to be “baptized.”
Yes, I gave that quote from the Didache in post #329.
keithr's response was "Yes, the Church soon started to apostatize, as Paul foretold."
It's not my personal interpretation! There are Bible translations which translate it as 'in', so the scholars that produced those translations believed it should be translated as 'in'. The 'Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges' (to give it its full name) notes was written over 100 years ago (1882 - 1921), so this is not a new interpretation.
The Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges was the first ever complete commentary set to be published by Cambridge University Press. The more than thirty theologians and biblical scholars that contributed to this collection have illuminated the Scriptures for thousands of readers for nearly one hundred years, and continue to provide a fantastic, holistic look at the entirety of the Bible. Contributing authors include noted scholars Herbert Edward Ryle, S. R. Driver, J. Skinner, A. Plummer, F. W. Farrar, H. C. G. Moule, and W. H. Simcox. The original audience for this series was the English Bible student, and the commentaries continue to be an excellent resource for those in the scholastic arena. This set provides a comprehensive, holistic examination of the Bible, including history, original language analysis, outlines, literary analysis and verse by verse comments. The General Editor of the set was J. J. S. Perowne, Dean of Peterborough.
Or, it's their educated, scholarly understanding.
So that is their opinion.
Yes, because pouring water three times onto a person's head, and fasting, were not the original way of baptising, and were made up things, a falling away from following the original teachings (as was baptising "into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" - it should have just been in Jesus' name - see Matthew 28:19 – Trinity corrupted verse).Yes, I gave that quote from the Didache in post #329.
keithr's response was "Yes, the Church soon started to apostatize, as Paul foretold."
that’s a fundamentalist view of baptism
all are acceptable as long as it’s flowing water on the forehead three time with the words I baptize you in the name of the father and of the son and of the Holy Spirit
ez 36:25-27 sprinkle
1 pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
1 Peter 1:22
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: see Ez 36
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (baptism rom 6:3-4)
pure spiritual pride!
Are you going by spiritual pride, self-righteous private judgement from scripture, or the humility to hear the teaching of Christ through the church of His apostles?
Obedience of faith: rom 16:26
We must be taught by Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life. Jn 14:6
Instructed: Lk 1:4 acts 8:31
Teach all nations: Matt 28:19
He who hears you (the apostles) hears me: lk 10:16
Hear the church: Matt 18:17
Church is the pillar and ground of truth: 1 Tim 3:14
Christ and his church are one, the church is an extension of Christ through the whole world and all time: acts 9:4
Not scripture plus private judgement
But guided by the teaching office of Christ and his church!
Athanasius Creed!
(From the early church)
Whoever desires to be saved must above all hold to the catholic faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and entire will doubtless perish eternally.
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