Christ's Coming to Gather His Church is AFTER the Tribulation

[Taken]

You are linking the flood to a type of widespread persecution or the feeling of being hemmed in? Your problem, sir, is not understanding that wrath and tribulation have different meanings. The flood was not a type of great tribulation because the flood was wrath. Tribulation is never God’s wrath. So to say we don’t go through tribulations is ridiculous. Tribulations are meant to teach and turn people towards God and away from wickedness. We glory in tribulations because of what they do! I suggest Proponents of the Pre-TB theory attempt to recognize specific words and their proper definitions if they truly care about truth.

No one said ManKIND would NOT experience Tribulations...
Scripture Teaches the COMPLETE Opposite. ManKIND shall Experience MANY Tribulations...Evil Spirits, Wicked Men, Wars over gods, Haters of people who disagree with which god/God other men trust to believe, blah, blah, blah.
The Teaching is A MAN who continues to STAND WITH GOD, Despite tribulations of evil spirits and wicked men....shall be Joyful.

* Yes God gets ANGRY. Yes Gods ANGER increases. Yes Gods Reveals
He Reacts to His ANGER via His WRATH. Yes God Has HIS OWN Tribulations He Sends DOWN From Heaven.
* And IF you pay attention: God Controls the Weather, the Earth, and USES the Weather and Earth to DESTROY the Inhabitants UPON the Face of the Earth.
* IF you pay attention: Every magnificent Storm, Mountain moving out of its place, lightening Strike, ARE LITTLE GLIMPSES of Gods POWER for men to SEE the Results.

* Yes, the Flood was A great Tribulation sent From God.
* Yes, The Greatness of the Flood, Destroyed the Whole Earth, and those upon the FACE OF THE EARTH.
* Yes, There SHALL BE Another great Tribulation sent From God, to AGAIN Destroy the Whole Earth, and those upon the FACE OF THE EARTH.

It’s a Study of multiple Scriptures;
TO KNOW...
God Created and Made ManKIND.
God Feeds ManKIND with His True and Good Word.
God Blesses ManKIND Who IS WITH Him.
God Leaves ManKIND to his own devises,WHEN manKIND distrusts God.
God GETS ANGRY at ManKIND who LEAVES Him.
God GETS JEALOUS when ManKIND REJECTS God for other gods.
God WARNS ManKIND God is Watching what ManKIND Does.
God WARNS ManKIND God will DESTROY ManKIND who Rejects Him.
Gods ANGER increased Causes ManKIND to Experience Gods WRATH.
Gods WRATH waxing Hot Causes ManKIND to Experience Gods TRIBULATIONS He Sends Down FROM Heaven.
God HAS REVEALED according to HIS ORDER and HIS WAY, an ESCAPE for “particular” manKIND, to NOT BE SUBJECT TO His ANGER, HIS WRATH and HIS NEXT and LAST GREAT TRIBULATION.

Nothing new under the Sun. What was SHALL BE AGAIN!

There is according to GODS ORDER and GODS WAY...ONLY ONE WAY, For ManKIND to ESCAPE Gods NEXT GREAT TRIBULATION.
NOTHING NEW....
Same as was IN Noah’s DAY...
LIFTED UP OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH, WHILE GODS TRIBULATION IS DESTROYING THE EARTH, AND THE INHABITANTS UPON THE FACE OF THE EARTH SUFFERING BODILY DEATH.
(BODILY DEATH, world wide devastation, from swords, famines, starvation, plagues, diseases, Mountains erupting, Lands shifts, crops failures, Water sources polluted, Sun darkened, on and on.)

IF YOU want God ANGRY with YOU.
IF YOU want to experience Gods WRATH.
IF YOU want to experience Gods TRIBULATION.
THAT IS YOUR prerogative.
IT IS quite SIMPLE for YOU to BE ASSURED to have those Experiences.....
DO NOT Hear, Learn, Trust, Believe, FOLLOW, DO, Gods Order and WAY!
Guaranteed...

A few Excerpts;
Gods Anger, Why, Gods Wrath, Why, Gods Tribulation, Why.

Ex 32:
[9] And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

Ex.33
[3] Unto a land flowing with milk and honey: for I will not go up in the midst of thee; for thou art a stiffnecked people: lest I consume thee in the way.

Deut 9:
[8] Also in Horeb ye provoked the LORD to wrath, so that the LORD was angry with you to have destroyed you.

Ex 22:
[24] And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

Gen 6:
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Gen 6:
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Gen 6:
[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Gen 7:
[17] And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

Rom 1:
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

1 John 1:
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from allunrighteousness.

1 Thes 5;
[9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thes 1:
[10] And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Matt 24
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

God IS JUST.
Every man has FREEWILL to Choose what THEY WANT.
God IS JUST.
God GIVES to Every man their Hearts Desire.

You want to Experience Gods Anger, Wrath, Tribulations....
OKAY...God will make sure YOU DO!

Me? I chose to Accept Gods WAY, to NOT HAVE God Angry with me, to NOT HAVE Gods Wrath upon me, to NOT experience Gods Tribulation.

TO each his own choices.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Keraz]

You want to Experience Gods Anger, Wrath, Tribulations....
OKAY...God will make sure YOU DO!

Me? I chose to Accept Gods WAY, to NOT HAVE God Angry with me, to NOT HAVE Gods Wrath upon me, to NOT experience Gods Tribulation.

TO each his own choices.

Basically, you have just told God what you want Him to do.

Consigning those who refute the rapture to heaven theory, to God's anger, wrath and tribulations, is shockingly unchristian.
Then to tell God to not be angry with you, is usurping His Judgment and expecting to be suddenly taken to heaven, before Judgment; is totally ridiculous, sci-fi nonsense.

Your choices are not Godly or scriptural.

 

[Taken]

Basically, you have just told God what you want Him to do.

AND? LOL, you have an issue with a man TELLING GOD WHAT the man HAS chosen and DOES want God TO DO, Being Exactly WHAT God OFFERED TO DO?

Consigning those who refute the rapture to heaven theory, to God's anger, wrath and tribulations, is shockingly unchristian.
Then to tell God to not be angry with you, is usurping His Judgment and expecting to be suddenly taken to heaven, before Judgment; is totally ridiculous, sci-fi nonsense.

Nonsense. Don’t be afraid of the Truth!


** YOU promote for YOURSELF to BE WITH God, HOPE YOU ENDURE, continue to BE WITH God, AND HOPE YOU do not become enticed, tempted by Evil spirits, Wicked men, and FALL AWAY....

** I promote manKIND TO ABSOLUTELY Desire AND TELL GOD THEIR DESIRE TO “BE WITH and IN” God, and ACCEPT HIS ASSURANCE that man shall ALWAYS BE with God, and God shall ALWAYS BE with that man. (And my, my, that being the SAME Jesus promoted!!)

Your choices are not Godly or scriptural.

Nonsense.

Any choice a man MAKES, “with, within, without” God, is expressly Scriptural .... God gives His Knowledge...Men by their own FREEWILL choose.

* YOU obviously are one who DOES NOT PROMOTE, for a man to Willingly ATTEST to his BELIEF....
(Since you are AGAINST a man telling God .... YES GOD, I WANT YOU to be “WITH.....AND......IN”, me.)

No wonder, No mystery, why you do not BELIEVE in Christ’s Church Being Lifted Up off the face of the earth;
they being excepted from Unrighteousness, Gods Anger, Gods Wrath, Gods Tribulation upon the face of the whole earth.
Because of their Testament TO GOD, (you know that part about TELLING GOD, YES THEY DO WANT WHAT HE OFFERED)!

No wonder, No mystery, Since the EXCEPTION does Not Apply to those who DO NOT ATTEST to the LORD GOD, what THEY DO WANT Him TO DO.

Thanks for clearing that up, why you reject, that which does not apply to you.

 

[Davy]

IF... one listens to the sensationalists here, they will fall into the ditch, because those go opposite of what God's Word teaches about the timeline events about the end of this world, and Jesus' future return.

Those folks would make good Leftist journalists for the likes of Leftist newspapers like the New York Times, LA Times, Washington Post, etc. Some journalists from the New York Times have been caught fabricating news! Imagine that, and the New York Times is 'supposed'... to be one of the most accurate and respected newspapers in the U.S.!

It's the times we're living in folks. The real truth is not that popular in today's news media outlets, and neither is God's Word as written that popular in many pulpits today either.

Lord Jesus was so clear in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that the day of His future return and gathering of His Church will be AFTER THE TRIBULATION, that it is impossible to misunderstand that as being some false pre-trib rapture. So why aren't those Leftists declaring what Jesus actually said?

 

[Davy]

Christ's Coming to Gather His Church is AFTER the Tribulation

OP^

Not a big secret...
Christ doesn’t gather His Church.
An archangel of the Lord gathers Christ Church!

These are only methods of denying that Jesus is Who gathers His Church AFTER the tribulation, like He showed in Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Trying to point to His angels HE... sends to gather is besides the point that He is Who comes to gather the Church. And there are many Bible Scriptures that stress Jesus gathering His Church.

Not a big secret..
Christ’s Church are exclusively the Converted.

Common sense, totally irrelevant to the subject of the timing... of Christ's gathering His Church.

 

[Davy]

Oops, you forgot to go and read and learn...Noah was SAVED being lifted up off the face of the Earth in Gods First Great Tribulation.

If you are going to discuss the event of Christ's future coming and gathering of His saints, then you must first try to understand what the 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter actually says. The comparison to the flood of Noah given by Jesus in His Revelation is NOT about some idea of being "lifted up off the face of the Earth". Noah's ark was UPON the flood of waters, and God 'sealed' Noah and his inside the ark in order that the flood would not harm Noah and his family. Thus Noah and his went through... tribulation being protected by God, they were NOT taken out of it.

Gods Last Great Tribulation, AGAIN the SAVED shall be lifted up off the face of the Earth.

Like I said, to understand about the gathering of the Church, one MUST FIRST understand 1 Thessalonians 4 by Apostle Paul. That gathering of the Church involves TWO separate groups of saints, not just those still alive on earth when Jesus comes. And those events Paul teaches there FOLLOW the Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 gathering events that Jesus taught.

Very foolish to Preach opposition Davy.
The Converted ARE NOT Subject to Wrath.

So why do you preach FOOLISHNESS AGAINST THE WRITTEN SCRIPTURE THEN? I am staying WITH WHAT GOD'S WORD SAYS AS WRITTEN. It is YOU that is leaving The Word of God, and instead are following what the pre-trib rapture charlatans say.

And YES those in Christ are subject to Satan's wrath for the time of tribulation. The Church ain't going anywhere until Jesus comes to END the "great tribulation" as written. And the 'wrath' of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is about GOD'S WRATH UPON THE WICKED ON THE LAST DAY (it's the 7th Vial wrath).

LOL...PATHETIC. But thanks for sharing you have lost any validity of your position and have to grasp at random negative and irrelevant accusations.

Your following a bunch of charlatans that LIE against God's written Word is what is pathetic.

 

[The Light]

Lord Jesus was so clear in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that the day of His future return and gathering of His Church will be AFTER THE TRIBULATION,

When will you ever present the facts of the scripture instead of what you want it to say? Here is what the scripture says.

Matthew 24
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The gathering is from HEAVEN AND EARTH. The Church is already in heaven when the gathering occurs. See the kings and priest of Rev 5.

that it is impossible to misunderstand that as being some false pre-trib rapture. So why aren't those Leftists declaring what Jesus actually said?

How is it that those with the least understanding of God's Word seem to yell the loudest? In short, you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[The Light]

If you are going to discuss the event of Christ's future coming and gathering of His saints, then you must first try to understand what the 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter actually says. The comparison to the flood of Noah given by Jesus in His Revelation is NOT about some idea of being "lifted up off the face of the Earth". Noah's ark was UPON the flood of waters, and God 'sealed' Noah and his inside the ark in order that the flood would not harm Noah and his family. Thus Noah and his went through... tribulation being protected by God, they were NOT taken out of it.

Those in the ark left the surface of the earth and were above the highest mountains. They did not experience the wrath of God.

Like I said, to understand about the gathering of the Church, one MUST FIRST understand 1 Thessalonians 4 by Apostle Paul. That gathering of the Church involves TWO separate groups of saints, not just those still alive on earth when Jesus comes. And those events Paul teaches there FOLLOW the Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 gathering events that Jesus taught.

The gathering of the Church happens BEFORE the seals are opened. The gathering in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is after the tribulation and is from heaven and earth.

So why do you preach FOOLISHNESS AGAINST THE WRITTEN SCRIPTURE THEN? I am staying WITH WHAT GOD'S WORD SAYS AS WRITTEN. It is YOU that is leaving The Word of God, and instead are following what the pre-trib rapture charlatans say.

The only foolishness I see is a foolish virgin that knows not when the Lord will come. He tells you He is coming when you think not, and yet you do not believe what is written.

And YES those in Christ are subject to Satan's wrath for the time of tribulation. The Church ain't going anywhere until Jesus comes to END the "great tribulation" as written.

Please post the scripture that says The Church ain't going anywhere until Jesus comes to END the "great tribulation" as written.

And the 'wrath' of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is about GOD'S WRATH UPON THE WICKED ON THE LAST DAY (it's the 7th Vial wrath).

The wrath of God begins after the 7th seal is open with the blowing of the 1st trumpet.

Your following a bunch of charlatans that LIE against God's written Word is what is pathetic.

These are remarks are by the blind that have no understanding of the Word of God. So go ahead and post that verse or verses that say that the Church will be here during the great tribulation.

 

[Davy]

When will you ever present the facts of the scripture instead of what you want it to say? Here is what the scripture says.

Matthew 24
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The gathering is from HEAVEN AND EARTH. The Church is already in heaven when the gathering occurs. See the kings and priest of Rev 5.

How is it that those with the least understanding of God's Word seem to yell the loudest? In short, you have no clue what you are talking about.

You MISQUOTED THE SCRIPTURE, showing your confusion.

The gathering event FROM THE EARTH is written in Mark 13:27, NOT Matthew 24:27!

The Scripture is AS I SAID...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

"from one end of heaven to the other" = the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16.


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

"from the uttermost part of the earth" = the "caught up" saints still alive on earth when Jesus comes, per 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

 

[Truth7t7]

So go ahead and post that verse or verses that say that the Church will be here during the great tribulation.

Scripture clearly teaches the church will be on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens

"Look Up, Lift Up Your Heads, Your Redemption Draweth Nigh"

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Davy]

Those in the ark left the surface of the earth and were above the highest mountains. They did not experience the wrath of God.

Noah and his went THROUGH the flood, and were SEALED in the ark by God Himself. Christ Jesus is our ARK of protection for the end with our going through... the coming great tribulation.

And here's a mystery for ya, though I doubt you'll understand it. Noah's ark was UPON the height of the flood waters for 150 days per Genesis. Per the old Hebrew calendar reckoning, 30 days equaled a month. So 150 days = five months. The time of stinging of Revelation 9 upon those NOT sealed with God's seal, is to be "five months". And in Revelation 12, we are shown the serpent casting out of his mouth waters 'AS a flood' after the symbolic 'woman' (Christ's Church who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ). The stinging is about Satan's lies as a flood to cause deception at the end of this world, and is specifically aimed at Christ's Church per that Revelation 12 chapter.

Furthermore, the 'wrath' you are pointing to, as taught by your pre-trib rapture teachers, is NOT about Satan's wrath during the tribulation. It is about GOD's Wrath upon the wicked on the LAST DAY, called there the "day of the Lord". That "day of the Lord" is when Jesus showed He comes "as a thief". It is NOT prior to the tribulation, but AFTER the tribulation, on the LAST DAY of this world. So of course, that 'wrath' of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is NOT appointed to those in Christ. It is for those which Paul showed in that chapter that will be saying, "Peace and safety", and then the "sudden destruction" comes upon them. That time of "sudden destruction" is on the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church. How many brethren will still be waiting on Him to come to end the great tribulation? I plan to, because that is when we are shown in God's Word that He will comes to gather His saints.

The gathering of the Church happens BEFORE the seals are opened. The gathering in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 is after the tribulation and is from heaven and earth.

No, it does NOT happen prior to the tribulation. Your OWN words above betray you. Those saints being gathered in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 ARE... Christ's Church. And those gathering events directly PARALLELS what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church.

The only foolishness I see is a foolish virgin that knows not when the Lord will come. He tells you He is coming when you think not, and yet you do not believe what is written.

I have no doubt that you will have to eat those above words, if you don't buckle down to your own disciplined Bible study on these events, and stop listening to the doctrines of men pushing a pre-trib rapture theory.

And you saying I don't believe what is written shows the height of YOUR DECEPTION. It is YOU that does not believe what is actually written about this in God's Word. I have shown you still, even though you refuse to heed it as written.

Please post the scripture that says The Church ain't going anywhere until Jesus comes to END the "great tribulation" as written.

I showed you, it's the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture emphatically. And that aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4, which you apparently don't understand either. In 1 Thessalonians 5, 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15, it is shown that Jesus comes to END this present world also, and it's in relation to the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night". Jesus is Who first taught the idea of HIS COMING to gather His Church being like a 'thief' breaking in. Even though the pre-trib rapture doctors deny those Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 verses are about Jesus gathering His Church AFTER... the tribulation, they still teach Jesus' idea in those same Chapters of His coming being a surprise like a thief in the night.

In Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial timing, Lord Jesus is STILL... warning His Church that He comes "as a thief". And then the gathering of the nations in prep to pour out His cup of wrath upon them with Armageddon, and the 7th Vial is then poured out, ending this present world. So it's all there, all tied together for us, with the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night". Peter said on that day man's works will be burned off this earth by God's consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10). Can a tribulation being going on when that happens? Of course not. That is about the day of Christ's ONLY future coming, and is when He will gather His faithful Church. Thing is, who wants to be among His faithful that wait for His coming like He commanded us?

The wrath of God begins after the 7th seal is open with the blowing of the 1st trumpet.

The 'wrath' of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is on the LAST DAY of this world. Reason is, because Paul was pointing to the wrath of "sudden destruction" that is to come upon the wicked that will be saying, "Peace and safety". Your pre-trib rapture doctrines of men instead BYPASS all those 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 verses, and shoot immediately to verse 9, basically fibbing to you as to what "wrath" that is!

Thus the "wrath" of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is upon the WICKED on the LAST DAY, on the "day of the Lord". And that is the day Jesus comes to gather His Church.

 

[Davy]

Scripture reveals God did ONCE become Angry with the whole world and His Anger turned to Wrath and His Wrath to turned to a promise of Tribulation upon the earth and it’s inhabitants...
And God saw 8 of mankind in the whole of the world willing to do FOR YEARS all God commanded, and they Same 8 After Preparing in Obedience to God, to Escape Gods Tribulation....were the ONLY 8 lifted up off the face of the Earth, during Gods Tribulation...SAVED!

No one was 'lifted up' (i.e., raptured) off the earth during the flood of Noah's day. Noah and his were sealed inside the ark which was lifted up on the height of the flood waters. Noah and his WENT THROUGH the flood of waters, which represents Christ's Church going THROUGH THE COMING GREAT TRIBULATION.

Scripture reveals God shall AGAIN become Angry with the world, and His Anger shall turn to Wrath and His Wrath shall turn to the whole world and He shall again send DOWN FROM Heaven His Tribulation.
* We have NO precise number of the FEW who have Prepared to Escape Gods Tribulation...
* However individuals KNOW who they ARE, their preparation, their readiness, their Escape already established for the UNKNOWN day, God shall SEND His Tribulation UPON the Earth and ALL of the Earths Inhabitants.
* Because Davy, YOU are not prepared, Because Davy, YOU have made God Angry, Because Davy, YOU will get to experience Gods Tribulation....Be GLAD for yourself. Look forward to God Anger and Wrath and Tribulation....Surely YOU and God are in agreement YOU are not worthy of Escape.

Jesus only taught that His faithful of the Church of Philadelphia, because they KEPT HIS WORD, will be kept from the "hour of temptation". That DOES NOT MEAN PHYSICAL ESCAPE. It means NOT being subject to the coming TEMPTATION during the great tribulation. But you do not know... what that coming temptation is, and show me you don't really care to know, so I won't show you.

 

[The Light]

Scripture clearly teaches the church will be on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus in the heavens

I see no mention of the Church in those verses. So it's obvious that scripture does not CLEARLY teach any such thing.

Luke 21:25-28KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

There will be people on the earth that will see these things begin to come to pass, but it is not the mostly Gentile Church. No mention of them after Revelation 5 BEFORE the seals are opened.

If you are looking for the Church they will not be dwelling on earth as the Church can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass....AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[The Light]

You MISQUOTED THE SCRIPTURE, showing your confusion.

The gathering event FROM THE EARTH is written in Mark 13:27, NOT Matthew 24:27!

That would be an error. Simply mislabeled the scripture I was quoting. As to my confusion, I must confess, I am confused why you ignorantly call anyone that believes in the truth of the pretribulation rapture a liar.

The Scripture is AS I SAID...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

"from one end of heaven to the other" = the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16.


Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

"from the uttermost part of the earth" = the "caught up" saints still alive on earth when Jesus comes, per 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

1 Thes 4 has nothing to do with the gathering from heaven and earth and everything to do with the fullness of the Gentiles coming in. If you are looking for the gathering from heaven and earth, you might look here.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 

[Davy]

I see no mention of the Church in those verses. So it's obvious that scripture does not CLEARLY teach any such thing.


There will be people on the earth that will see these things begin to come to pass, but it is not the mostly Gentile Church. No mention of them after Revelation 5 BEFORE the seals are opened.

If you are looking for the Church they will not be dwelling on earth as the Church can escape ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass....AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.

Luke 21
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You have no Biblical proof of what you are suggesting. You're just pushing speculation from men's doctrines of a pre-trib rapture theory. There is no such pre-trib rapture written anywhere in God's Word.

 

[Davy]

That would be an error. Simply mislabeled the scripture I was quoting.

Yeah, you did, but I don't hold that against you. I just wanted to make sure you noted it. I'm sure you'd do the same for me or others.

As to my confusion, I must confess, I am confused why you ignorantly call anyone that believes in the truth of the pretribulation rapture a liar.

Men's doctrines are just men's ideas, and the pre-trib rapture theory isn't your idea, not something you came up with, it was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby. Before that, the Christian Church held to a post-trib coming by Christ, for 1,830 years.

That's why I call those behind the movement charlatans. So where did I call you personally that? I didn't. I call those behind the pre-trib rapture theory that because there is nothing written in God's Word about Jesus coming PRIOR to the great tribulation to secretly gather His Church.

Instead, the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scripture is clear that His coming and gathering of the Church is AFTER... the tribulation, in His Own Words.

1 Thes 4 has nothing to do with the gathering from heaven and earth and everything to do with the fullness of the Gentiles coming in. If you are looking for the gathering from heaven and earth, you might look here.

I find that many deceived on that false pre-trib rapture theory don't actually understand the 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter by Apostle Paul. Now with what you say in that underlined part, I find you are just another that does not understand Paul in that 1 Thess.4 Chapter. You really need to study it, because the Pre-trib Rapture doctors rely on it heavily. Something they miss though, is Paul's point about the day of His coming written there with the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him. Paul showed there that happens at the resurrection.

So WHEN is the resurrection with Jesus' coming?

At the very END of this world on the LAST DAY. So why would the pre-trib rapture doctors instead teach Jesus comes PRIOR to the tribulation to gather His Church??? One should easily smell a rotten fish by what those pre-trib rapture doctors say in opposition to God's written Word.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Yes, and that happens at the "last trump", so when is that "last trump"? That's the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11 that happens immediately after God's two witnesses rise in Jerusalem, per that same Chapter. That Scripture says on that 7th Trumpet all the kingdoms of this world then become those of The Father and of His Christ.

That is a post-tribulational coming by Christ, if you didn't notice.

 

[The Light]

Noah and his went THROUGH the flood, and were SEALED in the ark by God Himself. Christ Jesus is our ARK of protection for the end with our going through... the coming great tribulation.

Noah was in the ark 7 days before the flood, even as the Church will be in heaven during the 70th week of Daniel.

And here's a mystery for ya, though I doubt you'll understand it. Noah's ark was UPON the height of the flood waters for 150 days per Genesis. Per the old Hebrew calendar reckoning, 30 days equaled a month. So 150 days = five months. The time of stinging of Revelation 9 upon those NOT sealed with God's seal, is to be "five months".

Interesting. However, those not in the ark die and those that are stung will seek death and not find it. Therefore, I don't see the correlation.

Revelation 9
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

And in Revelation 12, we are shown the serpent casting out of his mouth waters 'AS a flood'

Must have been quite a church service you had. Did you ever think to tell the preacher that there is quite a difference between God flooding the earth in His wrath and the dragon sending a flood after the woman. No correlation whatsoever.

after the symbolic 'woman' (Christ's Church who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ).

The woman is Israel. Period. The seed of the woman are the 12 tribes across the earth who keep the commandments of God and now have the testimony of Jesus Christ as part of Israel has it's eyes opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The stinging is about Satan's lies as a flood to cause deception at the end of this world, and is specifically aimed at Christ's Church per that Revelation 12 chapter.

Why do you find it necessary to make things up? The stinging has nothing to do with Satan. You are making the wrath of God out to be the wrath of Satan. No correlation. Again. The woman is Israel and the seed of the woman is the 12 tribes across the earth.

Furthermore, the 'wrath' you are pointing to, as taught by your pre-trib rapture teachers, is NOT about Satan's wrath during the tribulation. It is about GOD's Wrath upon the wicked on the LAST DAY, called there the "day of the Lord". That "day of the Lord" is when Jesus showed He comes "as a thief". It is NOT prior to the tribulation, but AFTER the tribulation, on the LAST DAY of this world. So of course, that 'wrath' of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is NOT appointed to those in Christ. It is for those which Paul showed in that chapter that will be saying, "Peace and safety", and then the "sudden destruction" comes upon them. That time of "sudden destruction" is on the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus comes to gather His faithful Church. How many brethren will still be waiting on Him to come to end the great tribulation? I plan to, because that is when we are shown in God's Word that He will comes to gather His saints.

I have no pretrib teachers. However, you are correct that the pretrib model that is taught is incorrect. That's what gives those in blindness, like yourself, confidence that they are correct. In other words, you understand that the TRIBULATION IS OVER BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS. Most of those that believe in a pretribulation rapture think and teach that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same thing. They are not. So the fact, that you understand this makes you think that there is no pretribulation rapture. You are in error. He is coming in a time that you think not.

In summary, you see the error in what is taught about the pretribulation rapture, but you don't see your own error. You don't see that Jesus comes at the 6th seal. You don't see that all the trumpets are the wrath of God. You can't let them be the wrath of God because if you do, your timeline doesn't work. Well, get this. Your timeline doesn't work.

No, it does NOT happen prior to the tribulation. Your OWN words above betray you. Those saints being gathered in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 ARE... Christ's Church. And those gathering events directly PARALLELS what Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about the gathering of the Church.

That is not Christ Church being gathered from the earth. That is the twelve tribes across the earth. This is so far over your current level of understanding, I'm not sure why I am wasting my time posting it. It is the twelve tribes that are gathered from the earth. The 144,000 are the first fruits of this harvest. Here we see those that are gathered from the earth BEFORE the wrath of God are singing the song of Moses. They are Jews as the 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel

Rev 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

I have no doubt that you will have to eat those above words, if you don't buckle down to your own disciplined Bible study on these events, and stop listening to the doctrines of men pushing a pre-trib rapture theory.

And you saying I don't believe what is written shows the height of YOUR DECEPTION. It is YOU that does not believe what is actually written about this in God's Word. I have shown you still, even though you refuse to heed it as written.

You've spent so much time making things up, like the woman is the Church that you have fallen off the correct path. The fact that you understand that the pretrib model that is taught is wrong gives you confidence that you are correct, and yet you are blind. In Revelation we see that the Church will be given reward crowns and be kings and priests. This is what we see in Revelation 4 and 5. The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened.

I showed you, it's the Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scripture emphatically. And that aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4, which you apparently don't understand either. In 1 Thessalonians 5, 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15, it is shown that Jesus comes to END this present world also, and it's in relation to the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night". Jesus is Who first taught the idea of HIS COMING to gather His Church being like a 'thief' breaking in. Even though the pre-trib rapture doctors deny those Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 verses are about Jesus gathering His Church AFTER... the tribulation, they still teach Jesus' idea in those same Chapters of His coming being a surprise like a thief in the night.

In Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial timing, Lord Jesus is STILL... warning His Church that He comes "as a thief". And then the gathering of the nations in prep to pour out His cup of wrath upon them with Armageddon, and the 7th Vial is then poured out, ending this present world. So it's all there, all tied together for us, with the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night". Peter said on that day man's works will be burned off this earth by God's consuming fire (2 Peter 3:10). Can a tribulation being going on when that happens? Of course not. That is about the day of Christ's ONLY future coming, and is when He will gather His faithful Church. Thing is, who wants to be among His faithful that wait for His coming like He commanded us?

The Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened. The seals are the 70th week of Daniel. It is the time when God turns His attention to His Chosen. God is bringing the Church who is not of this fold, with His Chosen into one fold.
John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

But this does not happen until the gathering. The gathering occurs before the wrath of God.

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

It's all about timing. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel. Part of those people can only see after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Don't be ignorant of this mystery.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

 

[The Light]

The 'wrath' of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is on the LAST DAY of this world. Reason is, because Paul was pointing to the wrath of "sudden destruction" that is to come upon the wicked that will be saying, "Peace and safety". Your pre-trib rapture doctrines of men instead BYPASS all those 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 verses, and shoot immediately to verse 9, basically fibbing to you as to what "wrath" that is!

Thus the "wrath" of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is upon the WICKED on the LAST DAY, on the "day of the Lord". And that is the day Jesus comes to gather His Church.

The end of the age is at the 6th seal, and then the wrath of God begins.

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



The gathering from heaven and earth has Jesus in the clouds at the 6th seal. It is a harvest at the last trump. Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect and then the wrath of God begins. Here is another view in Rev 14.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

You have no Biblical proof of what you are suggesting. You're just pushing speculation from men's doctrines of a pre-trib rapture theory. There is no such pre-trib rapture written anywhere in God's Word.

What are you talking about? There is proof everywhere.

 

[The Light]

Men's doctrines are just men's ideas, and the pre-trib rapture theory isn't your idea, not something you came up with, it was first preached in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by John Nelson Darby. Before that, the Christian Church held to a post-trib coming by Christ, for 1,830 years.

No. I think it was much, much earlier than John Nelson Darby. Of course it wasn't my idea. It was Jesus idea. He tells you He is coming when you think not. He tells you to watch and be ready.

That's why I call those behind the movement charlatans. So where did I call you personally that? I didn't. I call those behind the pre-trib rapture theory that because there is nothing written in God's Word about Jesus coming PRIOR to the great tribulation to secretly gather His Church.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

Instead, the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 Scripture is clear that His coming and gathering of the Church is AFTER... the tribulation, in His Own Words.

He comes for the Church when you think not before the tribulation begins, as we can escape all these things that will come to pass. He then comes for the gathering at the 6th seal and all are in heaven for the marriage supper, immediately after the tribulation. Then He comes at Armageddon with the armies of heaven.

I find that many deceived on that false pre-trib rapture theory don't actually understand the 1 Thessalonians 4 Chapter by Apostle Paul. Now with what you say in that underlined part, I find you are just another that does not understand Paul in that 1 Thess.4 Chapter. You really need to study it, because the Pre-trib Rapture doctors rely on it heavily. Something they miss though, is Paul's point about the day of His coming written there with the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him. Paul showed there that happens at the resurrection.

Jesus comes for the Church at the trump of God. Jesus comes for the gathering at the sixth seal at the last trump. All go to heaven for the marriage supper and return with the Lord at Armageddon.

So WHEN is the resurrection with Jesus' coming?

At the very END of this world on the LAST DAY. So why would the pre-trib rapture doctors instead teach Jesus comes PRIOR to the tribulation to gather His Church??? One should easily smell a rotten fish by what those pre-trib rapture doctors say in opposition to God's written Word.

Jesus comes as lightning out of heaven in His day.

Luke 17
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Obviously He comes more than once.
Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

Yes, and that happens at the "last trump", so when is that "last trump"? That's the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11 that happens immediately after God's two witnesses rise in Jerusalem, per that same Chapter. That Scripture says on that 7th Trumpet all the kingdoms of this world then become those of The Father and of His Christ.

The is a reason we find no teaching about what the last trump is. Don't you think since Revelation was not written until years later that Paul would have to explain His teaching on the last trump. Paul didn't have to explain the last trump teaching as all Jews know that the last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast.

That is a post-tribulational coming by Christ, if you didn't notice.

Yeah. Post tribulation which is pre wrath. The tribulation is over before the wrath of God begins.