Christ's sinless Head with a sinful body?

[Peterlag]

As I said, you isolate a doctrine for yourself, by referring to passages speaking of salvation and faith, without including the passages of repenting first unto salvation.

Jesus and Peter and Paul elsewhere make it know such pure heart faith unto righteousness, is only given by God that do repent of all the dead works first.

If you're not going to believe all passages together, then you're not going to believe all the Bible together. You just preach your own gospel from your own manner of life, and try to justify yourself with part of the Bible.

God does not have to say "Repent, and believe..." everywhere in the gospel, when He speaks of His forgiveness of sin to the saving of the soul.

God does not play to unbelievers' demands, but expects the believer in all His words to have sense enough to take them all together into our hearts.

Even if God were to make sure we remember that repentance of dead works is unto faith and salvation of God, every time He speaks of having faith toward to be saved, the unbelievers would still not be persuaded to repent, because they do not care to do so.

Why not? Because repentance is an act we either do or don't do from the heart. And if the heart is hard against repenting of sinning against God, then it doesn't matter what we believe with the mind.

You believe your own gospel of believing alone unto salvation, without repenting of your own dead works. And so you preach your own life of unrepented dead works.

Fine by me. I'm a live and let live Christian. I preach the life God commands all of us to live in Christ Jesus, which only begins with repenting of all our sins and trespasses first.

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

I will take that as you can't find a verse from the Epistles that says I need to repent my sins to be saved?

 

[Peterlag]

2Co 7:10
Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Sins... not to repent. The question is a verse that says I need to repent my sins to be saved?

 

[Ghada]

I will take that as you can't find a verse from the Epistles that says I need to repent my sins to be saved?

Of course not there. You can ignore the rest of the verses elsewhere that do.

Happy sinning while it lasts.

I am not in the business of trying to get people to repent. It's just doctrinal dispute for me. Once you show you do not compute simple Bible reasoning, then I move on.

 

[Peterlag]

Of course not there. You can ignore the rest of the verses elsewhere that do.

Happy sinning while it lasts.

I am not in the business of trying to get people to repent. It's just doctrinal dispute for me. Once you show you do not compute simple Bible reasoning, then I move on.

I do not know why we have so many Christians who believe the entire Bible is written directly to them, the Church of God. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate such thinking, and I would like to add nothing could be further from the truth. It's true the Word of God was written for everyone for all time, and it's for our learning because it contains what everyone should know. That does not mean every part of it is addressed to everyone in this time, because the subject matter was written either to the Jews, to the Gentiles, or to the Church of God (1 Corinthians 10:32).

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

No, it only proves you read all verses with your cherished sin-justifying doctrine.

Since Adam transgressed, and repented not, then sin entered the world, so that all men have been conceived and born into a sinful world.

Which is still not an excuse for sinning, because Jesus was born into the same wicked world with the same flesh and blood of all men.

And though He was also tempted like Adam and all men, unlike Adam and all men, He sinned not.

And now, unlike Adam and all other men, those repenting of their sinning, are born wholly anew in Christ and sin not with Him, though still tempted like all men.

This is the gospel I preach, that I see in the Bible. I reject your sin-cursed gospel for sinners saved by believing it alone, apart from their works still sinning like all other sinners of the world.



Your fundamental doctrine, that keeps you sinning to the grave, and justifying it by blaming Christ for making you that way.


I understand you Christian doctrines perfectly, and better than you, because I am honest about they do to Christians practicing it.


That's why you get peeved and say good bye. (For now) It's because your conscience depends on your doctrine alone, not the life you live.

The original sin was passed down from Adam to all. We were all born in sin EXCEPT FOR JESUS. Jesus was the only person born WITHOUT SIN, NOR DID HE EVER SIN. Jesus is God and the conception between the Holy and Mary was pure. His human nature was passed down from Mary, but not His spiritual nature. We can also argue that if Mary's corrupted genetic code was passed down to Jesus, then his body was not perfect. I don't know for sure but I would accept that God purified that conception, that God would not join with sin ridden substance ( passed from Mary). He instead interupted that generation and it became pure. ??? This concept has been argued over by the most brilliant theologians. Confusing as it may be, miracles usually are and we just surrender our minds to try to figure them out.
God creates the soul of a person at conception. The human nature is passed down, filled with the essence of sin that has corrupted the genetic code. So we have deformities, illnesses defects/mutations and such passed down to us from as far back as Adam. Now you would think that since the soul is created at the time of conception, it would be pure. But the judgment/ condemnation was passed down from Adam, therefore we are born in sin as Psalm 51:5 states.
Also we have this:
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19

I guess you were absent the day that was discussed in church and the multitude of times thereafter ... unless your Pastor was not educated and and an ordained minister. ??? It is a fundamental doctrine. Likely you were misled somewhere along the way?

 

[Ghada]

I do not know why we have so many Christians who believe the entire Bible is written directly to them, the Church of God.

It's not. Which has nothing to do with the NT commandment for all men to repent unto faith and salvation of God.

How many times now have you gone off to something else?

Next time you divert from the point, I'll just let it pass.

 

[Ghada]

The original sin was passed down from Adam to all. We were all born in sin EXCEPT FOR JESUS. Jesus was the only person born WITHOUT SIN, NOR DID HE EVER SIN. Jesus is God and the conception between the Holy and Mary was pure. His human nature was passed down from Mary, but not His spiritual nature. We can also argue that if Mary's corrupted genetic code was passed down to Jesus, then his body was not perfect. I don't know for sure but I would accept that God purified that conception, that God would not join with sin ridden substance ( passed from Mary). He instead interupted that generation and it became pure. ??? This concept has been argued over by the most brilliant theologians. Confusing as it may be, miracles usually are and we just surrender our minds to try to figure them out.
God creates the soul of a person at conception. The human nature is passed down, filled with the essence of sin that has corrupted the genetic code. So we have deformities, illnesses defects/mutations and such passed down to us from as far back as Adam. Now you would think that since the soul is created at the time of conception, it would be pure. But the judgment/ condemnation was passed down from Adam, therefore we are born in sin as Psalm 51:5 states.
Also we have this:
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Romans 5:18-19

I guess you were absent the day that was discussed in church and the multitude of times thereafter ... unless your Pastor was bit educated and anbirdained minister. ??? It is a fundamental doctrine. Likely you were misled somewhere along the way?

Nothing new here.

If you ever want to show any specific error of reasoning in any point I've made so far, I'll be glad to see it.

Otherwise I'm not interested in the conversation you're having with yourself.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Nothing new here.

Correct, Romans 5:18-19 and Psalm 51:5 have been around for awhile! You should study them.

 

[Peterlag]

It's not. Which has nothing to do with the NT commandment for all men to repent unto faith and salvation of God.

How many times now have you gone off to something else?

Next time you divert from the point, I'll just let it pass.

I don't go off course no matter how many times you say that I do. You just can't remember what you said a day ago. Here I will remind you... "Of course not there. You can ignore the rest of the verses elsewhere that do."

 

[Ghada]

It is a fundamental Christian doctrine that we are born in sin!

Of course it is! It's just not the Bible truth.

That's the problem with some Christian traditions taught for doctrine of Christ. The Jews in their religion did the same.

And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

By your Christian traditions you reject the commandment of God to repent and go and sin no more.

That's why they had Jesus crucified for exposing their doctrines as lies that bound the people to them in sin and blindness. Jesus was freeing His people from following blind guides into the ditches they dug for themselves.

You want to be bound with continued sinning with your doctrinal excuse and lie of God 'making you that way' from the womb, and others want to believe you the same. But there are Christians such as myself who refuse to be bound to go on sinning, while believing justifying lies to do so.

I used to believe that lie and was bound to sinning just as you. When I was instructed in how that's a lie, I realized the Bible was not contradicting men by commanding us to do something, that I was taught we could not possibly do.

You still teach it's impossible to repent and sin not, and use this lie for your unbelief in God's commandment, but I don't any more.

And no matter how many times with bold letters you try to proselytize me back into believing your Christian lie, it's not going to happen. There is no way at all by the grace of God, that I will repent of doing righteousness at all times, and become a sinner again like you.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

 

[Ghada]

I did not write the book...

Not the Bible. You just write your own book of interpretation changing the Bible from condemning all sinning to justifying it 'spiritually'.

All sinning with the body begins with lusting of the heart.

The great lie of sinful Christianity is that someone can be inwardly pure while outwardly unrighteous, because they convince themselves believe it.

 

[Ghada]

Correct, Romans 5:18-19 and Psalm 51:5 have been around for awhile! You should study them.

Whatever happened to Bye?

Psalm 51:5 ( among many other verses) serves the purpose of disproving YOUR VIEW: that we are not born in sin and innocent. It is a fundamental Christian doctrine that we are born in sin!
You don't understand some basic Christian doctrines ... and so we won't continue on your road. Bye.

No worries. I know you Christian sinners are never serious about going away as you want to say.

There are some unrepented Christian sinners, whose conscience now trusts entirely upon their doctrinal words, since they've learned not to be convicted by sinning anymore.

And so, the only way for their conscience to be pricked is when their doctrine is challenged. Therefore, I completely understand how challenges to their pet doctrine threatens to yank away their comfort blanky, and they take that entirely personal. They just need to blow off some steam for a while, before they strangely come back for more.

I'm not quite sure about that part, other than it being a 'moth back to the flame' kind of thing.

 

[Ghada]

I don't go off course no matter how many times you say that I do. You just can't remember what you said a day ago. Here I will remind you... "Of course not there. You can ignore the rest of the verses elsewhere that do."

Pass.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Of course it is! It's just not the Bible truth.

That's the problem with some Christian traditions taught for doctrine of Christ.

It is scripture, not tradition!
Romans 5:12
Romans 5:18-19
Psalm 51:5
Ephesians 2:2-3
Genesis 8:21
Psalm 58:3
Jeremiah 17:9
Genesis 6:5

 

[Peterlag]

Not the Bible. You just write your own book of interpretation changing the Bible from condemning all sinning to justifying it 'spiritually'.

All sinning with the body begins with lusting of the heart.

The great lie of sinful Christianity is that someone can be inwardly pure while outwardly unrighteous, because they convince themselves believe it.

I did not write a book on the sin nature. I wrote a few pages on it and asked you for your thoughts on it to which you responded that you did not care to look at a few pages.

 

[Ghada]

It is scripture, not tradition!
Romans 5:12
Romans 5:18-19
Psalm 51:5
Ephesians 2:2-3
Genesis 8:21
Psalm 58:3
Jeremiah 17:9
Genesis 6:5

It is not Scripture, just tradition!!! (I raised you 2 whole exclamation points. Want to double it to see who's most right?)

I could go through all the verses and show you a reading that does not include your 'born with sin nature' tradition. But as I've said, I'll not go down that useless road, until you first show any error in my initial challenges to your tradition.

1. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Christ is the only Maker of all things. That includes any sin 'nature' 'spirit' or 'seed'. And since nothing made, is not made by Christ, then that would make Him a Maker of sin and things with sin. That of course would make Christ the god of this world.

2. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin and lust is not passed upon any man by inheritance and nature of 'sin seed'. Sin only enters into the world, and only by men sinning in the world... starting with Adam.

It is the death to God that passes upon men, and that is only by a man sinning for himself against God. And so that death of the soul has passed upon all men, for that all men have sinned:

No man has any sin and the death by sin passed on himself from another. They only way any soul made by Christ can die to God, is by sinning. Not by any inheritance of lust and sin thorough an evil 'sin seed'. Such an evil seed is not made by any angel, god, or man. And certainly not by Jesus Christ.

3. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Christ lightens every man coming into the world in and through the womb. He does not darken any babe born of the womb with lust and sin within.

You can choose to respond to any one of these, and try to show any error in the argument from the verses given. I'd be glad to see it. But, as I said, if you choose to by pass them both, and just go on to try and make your tradition come from the Bible elsewhere, then I don't engage in one-sided argument and follow along with people just talking to themselves.

(That does not mean I want you to keep your promise to go bye-bye. I only want you to have enough integrity to have a honest dispute between two people not agreeing with one another. After all, it takes 2 to tango.)

 

[Ghada]

I did not write a book on the sin nature. I wrote a few pages on it and asked you for your thoughts on it to which you responded that you did not care to look at a few pages.

Correct. Why waste time reading false tradition, that I've already read before dozens of times elsewhere? I probably know the 'sin nature' tradition more than most that believe it. I could also likely teach all it's points more convincingly, because I am well-rehearsed in spotting Scripture manipulation. It makes me able to do a better job of it, if I wanted to.

As they say, the best post shark is the one that knows how to most convincingly miss the shot on purpose.

I've also given my answers to your efforts here, in response to your postings. Since you have nothing to say about my challenges here, why would I waste my time just making more challenges to some other pages for you to ignore? I do not go on in endless responses to what others keep bringing up, only to have them ignored.

I don't follow along with one sided lectures of people just talking to themselves, under the guise of 'replying' to another's challenges.

I'll make you a honest deal: you first respond specifically to my previous responses and challenges to your 'sin nature' teaching, and I will then read your pages, and respond to their points for you.


1. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Christ is the only Maker of all things. That includes any sin 'nature' 'spirit' or 'seed'. And since nothing made, is not made by Christ, then that would make Him a Maker of sin and things with sin. That of course would make Christ the god of this world.

2. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin and lust is not passed upon any man by inheritance and nature of 'sin seed'. Sin only enters into the world, and only by men sinning in the world... starting with Adam.

It is the death to God that passes upon men, and that is only by a man sinning for himself against God. And so that death of the soul has passed upon all men, for that all men have sinned:

No man has any sin and the death by sin passed on himself from another. They only way any soul made by Christ can die to God, is by sinning. Not by any inheritance of lust and sin thorough an evil 'sin seed'. Such an evil seed is not made by any angel, god, or man. And certainly not by Jesus Christ.

3. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Christ lightens every man coming into the world in and through the womb. He does not darken any babe born of the womb with lust and sin within.

You can answer any one of these points, or all if you like, and show any error in my reasoning from the verses given. Then I'll read your pages. But, remember, you must first address the specific point made and either agree, or show any error in it to disagree with. Just going on to repeat what you teach doesn't work in an honest 2 sided debate.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Christ is the only Maker of all things. That includes any sin 'nature' 'spirit' or 'seed'. And since nothing made, is not made by Christ, then that would make Him a Maker of sin and things with sin. That of course would make Christ the god of this world.

You don't know what death is and it looks like you don't have a grasp on what sin is either. The commandments gives us an idea of what sin is. In the Garden, God gave them one rule/law. Sin did not exist before they broke the law, they disobeyed.
Jesus didn't create disobedience in man. Nor did He create actions in man, we are not puppets. He influences actuins in man to do good, but not evil. Man has a will and must to be responsible for something.
Evil is not some substance that can be created. Jesus created all things visible and invisible. But sin is not a physical or spiritual substance. It is an act, not a substance. It is a violation. The penalty/consequence of the disobedient act caused a pure soul to become impure and prone to temptation. This also caused death to the spirit. Spiritual death is a broken relationship with God, a disconnection, creating a blindness. So we are are born spiritually blind.

It is the death to God that passes upon men, and that is only by a man sinning for himself against God. And so that death of the soul has passed upon all men, for that all men have sinned:

False

No man has any sin and the death by sin passed on himself from another.

1. Every person is born in sin. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother a conceive me. Psalm 51:5

Read that ... are you blind - it's right there!
More ...
Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. Psalm 58:3

" ...every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time." Gen. 6:5
"All the time" means there was never a time that it wasn't. It didn't become evil, the human heart is. Our nature was corrupted.

Christ lightens every man coming into the world in and through the womb. He does not darken any babe born of the womb with lust and sin within.

False.
There is no use to continue, it's beating a dead horse.

 

[Peterlag]

Correct. Why waste time reading false tradition, that I've already read before dozens of times elsewhere? I probably know the 'sin nature' tradition more than most that believe it. I could also likely teach all it's points more convincingly, because I am well-rehearsed in spotting Scripture manipulation. It makes me able to do a better job of it, if I wanted to.

As they say, the best post shark is the one that knows how to most convincingly miss the shot on purpose.

I've also given my answers to your efforts here, in response to your postings. Since you have nothing to say about my challenges here, why would I waste my time just making more challenges to some other pages for you to ignore? I do not go on in endless responses to what others keep bringing up, only to have them ignored.

I don't follow along with one sided lectures of people just talking to themselves, under the guise of 'replying' to another's challenges.

I'll make you a honest deal: you first respond specifically to my previous responses and challenges to your 'sin nature' teaching, and I will then read your pages, and respond to their points for you.


1. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Christ is the only Maker of all things. That includes any sin 'nature' 'spirit' or 'seed'. And since nothing made, is not made by Christ, then that would make Him a Maker of sin and things with sin. That of course would make Christ the god of this world.

2. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Sin and lust is not passed upon any man by inheritance and nature of 'sin seed'. Sin only enters into the world, and only by men sinning in the world... starting with Adam.

It is the death to God that passes upon men, and that is only by a man sinning for himself against God. And so that death of the soul has passed upon all men, for that all men have sinned:

No man has any sin and the death by sin passed on himself from another. They only way any soul made by Christ can die to God, is by sinning. Not by any inheritance of lust and sin thorough an evil 'sin seed'. Such an evil seed is not made by any angel, god, or man. And certainly not by Jesus Christ.

3. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Christ lightens every man coming into the world in and through the womb. He does not darken any babe born of the womb with lust and sin within.

You can answer any one of these points, or all if you like, and show any error in my reasoning from the verses given. Then I'll read your pages. But, remember, you must first address the specific point made and either agree, or show any error in it to disagree with. Just going on to repeat what you teach doesn't work in an honest 2 sided debate.

1.) “All things were made through it.” The logos is an “it,” not a “him.”

 

[Ghada]

You don't know what death is and it looks like you don't have a grasp on what sin is either.

I've seen enough dead bodies, and I remember what being dead to God was like. I also see what it is to those still sinning and dead to Him.

The commandments gives us an idea of what sin is. In the Garden, God gave them one rule/law. Sin did not exist before they broke the law, they disobeyed.

Good. There is no sin anywhere, that there is no sinning and transgressing against God.

Whosoever is committing sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Jesus didn't create disobedience in man. Nor did He create actions in man, we are not puppets.

Even better. Jesus is not a Maker that makes babes with sin nor sinful. Only after being born and a child sins, is the child become a sinner and child of the devil.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God.

He influences actuins in man to do good, but not evil. Man has a will and must to be responsible for something.

Which is only what we do, not what we inherit by seed of man, which is just flesh and blood shaped in the image of man, not that of porcupines.

Evil is not some substance that can be created. Jesus created all things visible and invisible. But sin is not a physical or spiritual substance. It is an act, not a substance. It is a violation. T

Absolutely. I believe you are the first person trying to teach the 'man made with sin' tradition, that has actually acknowledge this simple truth. I.e. there is no 'sin thingy' apart from doing it, and Christ is certainly not the Maker of it put into a babe's body.

Good job.

he penalty/consequence of the disobedient act caused a pure soul to become impure

And dead to God and His Spirit separated by sinning from the soul.

Sin has not passed upon all men, but only the spiritual death of sin, by a man sinning, beginning first with Adam. Every man since then as died to God, because all men since Adam have also sinned against God, save One.

It is the acts of sinning we are now all born among, not any act of sin by conception and being born.

and prone to temptation.

No, all sin is by temptation, beginning with Adam in the garden. Jesus was also tempted as all men are tempted. Sinning only makes us prone to falling by temptation. Not sinning makes us more prone to not falling by temptation.

This also caused death to the spirit. Spiritual death is a broken relationship with God, a disconnection, creating a blindness.

True.

So we are are born spiritually blind.

Not born from the womb, but only when sinning to become children of the devil.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God.

Every babe and man coming into the world at birth is lighted by the light of Christ, not darkened by the god of this world.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.