Christ's sinless Head with a sinful body?

[Ghada]

1. Every person is born in sin. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother a conceive me. Psalm 51:5

Since you agree there is no sin, where there is no sinning act of disobedience and transgression. Then you must be saying conception is an act of sin, and taking shape in the womb is sinful.

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

And since it is Christ that creates us and makes and shapes us in the womb, then you are now saying Christ is indeed the Maker of things shaped sinfully by Him. And you praise Him for that?

That is not my Christ nor my Maker, nor do I praise the devil for making up such a lie about God.

James 1 rebukes sinners, that say it's God who makes them to sin, because God 'made them that way' in the womb.

I am not bound by translations that lead to false traditions.

Behold, I was shapen into iniquity; and into sin did my mother conceive me.

This is as accurate as the other translation, without leading to false tradition of men, and confirming the Bible that says all men have sinned.

Every person is born unto sinning with the world.

Since sin entered into the world by man sinning, and there are still men and women sinning in the world, then all babes are still born into a whole world of iniquity, that lies in wickedness.

And so was Jesus Christ, when He came in the same exact flesh of all men, by the seed of David.

Read that ... are you blind - it's right there!

Wow! Congratulations! You were shaped and born a devil! Praise Him for it like the Psalmist!

More ...
Even from birth the wicked go astray;
from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies. Psalm 58:3

This is where false traditions lead to imaginative things, that any sensible person would know is unreal.

I can safely say, there has never ever been any babe exiting the womb and speaking, much less spreading lies.

Once again, all translation and interpretation must be in context of all the Bible, otherwise, out of context people might start saying babes to run astray speaking lies as soon as the unbiblical cord is cut.

The only thing coming out of the mouth of babes, is justly screaming at being whacked on the Bible. Other than that, it's just gurgles, cryings, and other unintelligible baby sounds for a while the following months.

Babes born into wicked homes learn to curse first. Not so in homes of the people of the Lord.

I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Such babes are blessed to be consecrated to the Lord from the womb. And though the Psalmist didn'/t say it at the time, He later did from the heart knowing it to be blessedly true.

Though all babes are lighted by Christ coming into the world, not all babes are blessed to be consecrated to Him in a godly home.

However, though I was not so consecrated at birth, and I am certainly thankful to God, that I was brought into some sorry Christian home, where my own parents started telling me I was doing wrong, because I was born of the devil from the get go.

Now that certainly would have put me on the straight and narrow alright. It also would have made coming to Christ making me a devil in the first place.

" ...every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time." Gen. 6:5

Nor has any babe ever been born thinking thoughts and intents of the heart, much less evil ones.

For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil...

This certainly includes at birth and beyond, until learning to do one or the other, and knowing it by doing it.

"All the time" means there was never a time that it wasn't.

Man, you really do want evil to be everywhere all the time. Sort of helps you to fit right in, right? Afterall, you are the one preaching sinning with the flesh as much as you want.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

You also therefore impute your sinful living to every one else, which is the modus aporandi of such unrepented Christians, who insist it's not possible not to be sinning like them.

Why do you Christians always have to include everyone else in your sinful ways? Do you really think it justifies you with God? I mean, you are speaking of a time when 'everybody doing it' didn't help from being judged and condemned by God. (And everybody wasn't nor isn't doing it)

This why you are not trying to teach that there was never any time earth any man was not sinning against God, including Adam in the garden and Jesus in the manger.

Makes sense. Man started cursing and lying as soon as God breathed His Spirit into his body. This also chimes with Christ being the Maker of sinners at creation. It now includes the Holy Spirit of grace breathing evil thoughts into Adam's heart and mind.

You also accuse Noah of being one of them, since there was never a time when any man was not imagining and doing evil, including Adam at creation and while being sinfully shaped by the Lord.

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Of man is not every man. It was great continual wickedness at that time. All the time continually at that time, is not all time of history, nor today, nor before Adam sinned, nor during the whole life of Jesus.

It didn't become evil, the human heart is. Our nature was corrupted.

Back to the sin nature thingy, that was put into every heart of men coming into the world, and darkened in their minds by your christ.

Not my Christ.

False.
There is no use to continue, it's beating a dead horse.

Not so long as you continue to respond to me challenges, which you have done once specifically, to the sin 'substance' part. As well as acknowledge Christ made no such thing, nor makes men sinful with such things. And your good teaching on how there is no such thing without committing it.

Which I was agreeing with, and still do, though you later disannul it to keep holding to your 'men by nature sinful' from the womb tradition.

Or you can eve come up with some new twist to it. But, you have done as I asked, and so I will keep my promise to read your papers. If there's a new twist in that, then I'll respond to it here. Thanks.

 

[Ghada]

1.) “All things were made through it.” The logos is an “it,” not a “him.”

A new twist on another subject. I accept the challenge.

Logos is a Greek word. The Word was God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Him, not it.

People can make any translation to fit their doctrine, which I don't disagree with, Since I also make some minor adjustments to my King James translation, in order to fit better with Bible doctrine.

However, if our translation is for false doctrine, then the Bible will show it elsewhere in due time.

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God did not make the worlds by it, nor did He then appoint it be heir any thing. The Word made flesh, the Son Jesus Christ come in the flesh, was Him, not it.

You're it won't even inherit you. It's your christ that you insist on making yourself an heir to.

As I said, a new twist. I've heard of the created christ, but not yet of your it-christ. At least the created-christers call him a him, and not an it. They just say he was a god.

 

[Peterlag]

A new twist on another subject. I accept the challenge.

Logos is a Greek word. The Word was God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Him, not it.

People can make any translation to fit their doctrine, which I don't disagree with, Since I also make some minor adjustments to my King James translation, in order to fit better with Bible doctrine.

However, if our translation is for false doctrine, then the Bible will show it elsewhere in due time.

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God did not make the worlds by it, nor did He then appoint it be heir any thing. The Word made flesh, the Son Jesus Christ come in the flesh, was Him, not it.

You're it won't even inherit you. It's your christ that you insist on making yourself an heir to.

As I said, a new twist. I've heard of the created christ, but not yet of your it-christ. At least the created-christers call him a him, and not an it. They just say he was a god.

You spin and twist just as good as the best of them. "It" is what the logos is. You twisted that into I was saying "it" is Jesus. You say the logos is a him because you think the logos is Jesus. I do not. Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action.

 

[Ghada]

You spin and twist just as good as the best of them. "It" is what the logos is. You twisted that into I was saying "it" is Jesus. You say the logos is a him because you think the logos is Jesus. I do not. Jesus Christ is not a lexical definition of logos. The verse does not say "In the beginning was Jesus." The "Word" is not synonymous with Jesus, or even the "Messiah." The word logos in John 1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression... His reason, purpose and plans, especially as they are brought into action.

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God did not make the worlds by it, nor did He then appoint it to be heir any thing. The Word made flesh, the Son Jesus Christ come in the flesh was Him made heir of all things, not it.

Still Him, not it.

 

[Peterlag]

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God did not make the worlds by it, nor did He then appoint it to be heir any thing. The Word made flesh, the Son Jesus Christ come in the flesh was Him made heir of all things, not it.

Still Him, not it.

The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before. There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man. The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

 

[Maxim]

The soul that sins is dead to God. The wages of sinning is still death. We still separate ourselves from God by sinning and trespassing against Him.

No person's doctrine can disannul the law of sin and death. Men's doctrines end in the grave.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is doing unrighteousness is not of God.

Those doing God's righteousness are righteous as He. Those doing the devil's unrighteousness are unrighteous as he.

God is not an unjust judge with respect of persons to condemn one man for sinning with the devil, while excusing another doing the same thing with the devil.

For all that do such things, and all that do unrighteously, are an abomination unto the LORD thy God.

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind...

Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which are doing such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and are doing the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

What we believe does not 'shield' us from being condemned for what we do. Believing Jesus is to not do those things worthy of condemnation. Jesus's shield of faith is not against condemnation for doing wrong, but is against doing wrong.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man is sowing, that shall he also reap. For he that is sowing to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that is sowing to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.



That's why you resent the 'pressure' of the Spirit of grace while sinning. You want to believe you're already forgiven even before you sin against Him, but apparently He's still able to convict your conscience to repent and be forgiven.

There does come a day when He stops doing so, either on earth or in the grave.


You prove your unbelief by quoting the Bible pertaining to unbelievers.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

And so, you are not righteous. You do not understand. You do not seek God. You are gone out of the way. You do no good. Your throat is an open grave. Your tongue is deceitful. Your lips are poisonous. You curse bitterly with your mouth. Your ways are destructive. You know no peace and have no fear of God.

That's quite a salvation you have there. The doctrines and salvations of men end in the grave.

And so, you are a transgressor of God's law and know you are a sinner.


Everyone is not like you.



Not everyone is no good like you.

Sinning less is not closer to God. Sinning not is fellowship with God and walking in His light.


We are judged by our deeds. Being something just by believing it is delusional. We can believe what we want, but our deeds tell the truth.


Not by your unbeliever's gospel.


Yours is. You save yourself by your own faith whether sinning or not.

That's why you dismiss the 'pressure' of the Holy Ghost to repent of sinning and be forgiven by God.


Now you quote the false accuser of Job. They did the same with Jesus, and still do so with His saints.


God commands men everywhere to repent of all sins and trespasses, not just the ones we don't enjoy doing.

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

What's to repent of if you're already forgiven by faith alone? Don't you believe your own gospel?

Back to your gospel of unbelief.


No, you can't, because you won't.



Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Not with you. You preach it is impossible.



You do, not being with God.

New to you, who says you are in the light by faith, while walking in darkness by deeds.


Written to sinners calling themselves believers. God does not command man to sin and say they are sinners. The god of this world wants all men to sin, have sin, and say so.


True, myself from the Bible.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

And you speak for yourself and your bible, that says keep sinning, because it's impossible not to keep sinning with the devil against God.



There is no rebuke nor help for anyone that says he is in the light by faith, while walking in darkness by deeds.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4‭-‬7 NIV

 

[Ghada]

The fact that the logos "became" flesh shows it did not exist that way before.

He was before in the Beginning with God. He was made flesh with a body prepared for Him by the Spirit.

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative "existence" as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man.

Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Not your it-christ.

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

The same is true with the "word" in writing. It had no literal pre-existence as a "spirit-book" somehow in eternity past, but came into being as God gave the revelation to people and they wrote it down.

He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,

 

[Ghada]

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4‭-‬7 NIV

True. Good quote

No matter how many good things we may have done without Christ, it was still just filthy rags to God and did not commend us in any way to be saved by Him, before repenting of the sins and trespasses.

One sin is enough to need repenting of for Jesus' sake to be reconciled to God.

There are no unrepented lusting hearts and sinners in Jesus' body on earth: The sinless Head has no sinful members.

 

[Maxim]

The soul that sins is dead to God. The wages of sinning is still death. We still separate ourselves from God by sinning and trespassing against Him.

...

"The soul that sins is dead to God"... Are you dead then? Or would you say you're without sin? Do you think you're perfect and deserve salvation on your own, or you should be like that? Look, Abraham, Job, Moses and prophets are much more righteous compared to us, but New Testament say everyone is guilty before God and no one will be justified through their deeds and they're not deserving salvation by their deeds. By your deeds you're completely nothing, you can't even fulfil His word to the very end and you're liar if you say you can. Or maybe you're not understanding what He was teaching. My advice to you, if you're saying you should be sinless to be saved, go and become one first, before preaching what Bible doesn't say, and if you can't do it yourself then don't teach such nonsense.

Abraham, Job, etc are righteous only to a certain extent. Sure, their conscience was good and they did what they thought was right, but they didn't have Jesus' word and didn't know everything to the very end. And it seems you don't know as well.

It was Old Testament that said "Don't sin, and if you sin, you'll die", we're in the New Testament already. New Testament says "All your sins are forgiven, you're saved by faith, independently of the deeds of the law". Sure, deeds confirm your faith, but faith is not only about not sinning, it's very small part of it actually and Jesus word is much more than "don't sin". It seems to me you didn't even try to fulfil it.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 3:28 KJV

And we're not saved for our future good deeds howni mentioned above, as well. Eternal life is for free to all believers following Jesus.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:5‭-‬7 KJV

We should abide in Jesus and are cast forth and wither if we aren't, but it doesn't mean you're completely sinless and perfect, but that you have good conscience in faith.

Unrighteous are not saved, sure, but unrighteous are not the ones who have a little of small sins remaining. If you look what Paul says about unrighteous (in for example, "unrighteous don't inherit the Kingdom of God...") they are either perverts with perverted mind or continuously doing evil to others thinking only about what's good for them, looking only for their own benefit uncaring of others.

I heard there were churches teaching you should be sinless to be saved, but I didn't know it was that bad. Faith is following Jesus and fulfilling His word. Read Hebrews 11 and re-read His teachings. Most of all you should learn this:

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: but I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:38‭-‬48 KJV

“But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back{***a little mistranslated, considering words in Matthew this should be about lending, i.e. give to everyone who asks and don't ask back from the one who took from you}. Do to others as you would have them do to you.
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Luke 6:27‭-‬38 NIV

If we follow this, then we abide in Jesus and are saved.

If you fulfill this to the very end, then you're not far from being perfect. There's more for you to learn, still.

Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: and thou shalt be blessed for{***"that", mistranslated as well} they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.
Luke 14:12‭-‬14 KJV

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Matthew 6:19‭-‬21 KJV

Seek heavenly treasure by giving to the poor and needy by selling what is yours.

And the best of all, after all of it, if you truly wish to be the first and follow Jesus to the very end, then this is for you:

Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”
“... If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
“Which ones?” he inquired.
Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
...
Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
Matthew 19:16‭-‬22‭, ‬27‭-‬30 NIV

 

[Maxim]

True. Good quote

No matter how many good things we may have done without Christ, it was still just filthy rags to God and did not commend us in any way to be saved by Him, before repenting of the sins and trespasses.

One sin is enough to need repenting of for Jesus' sake to be reconciled to God.

There are no unrepented lusting hearts and sinners in Jesus' body on earth: The sinless Head has no sinful members.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Galatians 2:17 KJV

We're found sinners according to Paul as well.

 

[Maxim]

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:55‭-‬57 KJV

Law is the power of sin and it doesn't anymore has it. By being baptized in Jesus we're dead to the law and Jesus destroyed it, nailing it to His cross.

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Galatians 2:19 KJV

... blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Colossians 2:14 KJV

Bible doesn't say righteous are sinless. For example, here:

Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?
Proverbs 20:9 KJV

Here:

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
1 Corinthians 11:31‭-‬32 KJV

If we're chastened to not be condemned with the world, then it means we're guilty of something and therefore sin in something.

Here:

Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
Romans 14:4 NIV
(Although context is a little bit different, Paul speaks in general words here.)

And here:

For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again:
Proverbs 24:16 KJV

You're not to be sinless but to stand up again after you fall.


This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Galatians 5:16‭-‬24 KJV

"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." "against such [people] there is no law"


For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
John 1:17 KJV

And you're to learn the same grace, truth
and forgiveness that was given through Jesus.


And even through Jesus word it's obvious we continue to sin at the same time being believers.

After this manner therefore pray ye:
...
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
...
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Matthew 6:9‭, ‬12‭, ‬14‭-‬15 KJV

So forgive others who are guilty before you to be forgiven. Sin doesn't separate you from God, but moves away. But sin doesn't have any power over us anymore and doesn't condemn us, unless you're no longer abide in Jesus.

So, it's you who is teaching the wrong gospel, not me.

Also, sorry, I wrote a little wrong. Abide in Jesus doesn't mean to have good conscience and being with sin, but to constantly remain in His word. If you're like this and your conscience doesn't condemn you of anything then whatever you ask of Him, He'll give you. And if you completely remain in His word then you're not sinning (at least for a certain time). But John writes what we should aspire to be, not how we are, and you will not die if you follow His teachings but still sin a little (but try not to).

Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
1 John 3:21‭-‬24 KJV

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
John 15:7 KJV

 

[Maxim]

I edited previous comment, if you read it before, go over it once again. Also, I'm ending this conversation now and will not be replying to you, because if you don't believe me after what I said to you, there's no point talking to you anymore, but believe me, you were fooled and your gospel is false. Your church is false and is teaching bad and wrong things, making you blind and guilty. Deeds indeed confirm your faith, but there's never been this standard of salvation to be sinless. Better, learn grace and mercy from Jesus.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Whenever confronted with the Bible fact that Jesus Christ saves and takes away the sins of the world from the hearts and lives of His people, and that there is no sin in Him, some Christians insist that only applies to Jesus Christ Himself.

They say, (not me, but I speak as a sinner man), that He is the only man on earth having no sin in Him, but that all of His people still have sin in them, and continue sinning in this life unto the death.

Is Jesus Christ the Head sinless with His own body full of sin? God forbid. Is the sinless Head separated by sin from His own body? God forbid.

Maybe this is not relevant but to me it helps answer the question you asked. However this is only my opinion. I’m a smoker. I want to quit and recently I took a free class on smoking. One step was to stop identifying as “I am a smoker trying to quit.” But instead “I am not a smoker” in making that commitment to identify with “I no longer smoke” rather than “I’m still a smoker.”

To me this applies to identifying with sin too. I don’t think there is anything wrong with identifying with “I no longer sin”. Because it’s a commitment. It doesn’t claim (Imo) to be —arrived at— “I am no longer a sinner” but a commitment to the preparation to become “no longer identifiable with sin”.

Another thing taught in the class was “change can happen in an instant” but this is when the change becomes visible to others in “no longer smoking”…but there is a preparation beforehand, a change of mind, a change in what infiltrates your life in the same way you welcomed cigarettes into your everyday lifestyle, you begin to unwelcome them. The same way you welcomed sin in, you unwelcome it. a new way by and through perpetration to be free from it.

That may not make sense …but saying “I am a sinner” is (Imo) a way to say the commitment hasn’t been made to walk in a new way; letting it “free from sin” become just as much a part of your life as you allowed “sin” to become a part of it. if this is the mind set… “I am a sinner” weird that the Mind is in the Head and that Mind is Christ.

 

[Ghada]

"The soul that sins is dead to God"... Are you dead then? Or would you say you're without sin?

Not now. Was before. Tomorrow is another day to endure or fall temptation.

But 2 Peter say we can ensure our salvation and not fall, by adding virtue, temperance, godliness, and charity to our faith.

Do you think you're perfect and deserve salvation on your own, or you should be like that?

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.

Look, Abraham, Job, Moses and prophets are much more righteous compared to us,

Us, being you and others like you.

but New Testament say everyone is guilty before God

All unrepented sinners and unbelievers. If you are still guilty, then:

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

and no one will be justified through their deeds

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

We can keep going down your own gospel road for justifying guilty sinners against God, but I'm only going to quote the Bible gospel.

and they're not deserving salvation by their deeds.

Not by any man's past deeds, before repenting unto faith and salvation of God.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

By your deeds you're completely nothing, you can't even fulfil His word to the very end and you're liar if you say you can.

You judge all others according to yourself.

Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

You are not the example of all Christians. Only Jesus is, and neither He nor me are like you.

My advice to you, if you're saying you should be sinless to be saved,

Only one man Jesus Christ was sinless on earth and never sinned from cradle to grave.

Every other man has sinned, but not all men are now still sinning like you. No matter how much you want us to. There is no safety in numbers, even if everyone is 'doing it' like you.

go and become one first, before preaching what Bible doesn't say, and if you can't do it yourself then don't teach such nonsense.

But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

but they didn't have Jesus' word and didn't know everything to the very end. And it seems you don't know as well.

Your word is not Jesus' words, nor mine. As I've shown above.

It was Old Testament that said "Don't sin, and if you sin, you'll die", we're in the New Testament already.

So, it's no more don't sin? Or if we sin we don't die?

New Testament says "All your sins are forgiven, you're saved by faith, independently of the deeds of the law".

True. so long as we are repented from sinning.

Sure, deeds confirm your faith, but faith is not only about not sinning, it's very small part of it actually and Jesus word is much more than "don't sin".

True. Repenting of sinning only leads to salvation and now doing good at all times.

And we're not saved for our future good deeds howni mentioned above, as well.

Your not saved to do good? Then what are you saved from and for what?

Eternal life is for free to all believers following Jesus.

True. Freely given to all that do repent of our sinning for Jesus' sake.

but it doesn't mean you're completely sinless and perfect,

True. As I said, only Jesus was sinless all His life. And we are not perfect as God in heaven, because like Jesus was, we are still being tempted in this life.

but that you have good conscience in faith.

True. keep a conscience without sinning against God and our own conscience.

Unrighteous are not saved

True. No man doing unrighteousness is inheriting the kingdom of God.

, sure, but unrighteous are not the ones who have a little of small sins remaining.

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

You're more than welcome to your diminished gospel. I'll keep Jesus full light gospel.

If you look what Paul says about unrighteous (in for example, "unrighteous don't inherit the Kingdom of God...") they are either perverts with perverted mind or continuously doing evil to others thinking only about what's good for them, looking only for their own benefit uncaring of others.

Anyone doing any such thing at any given time, is at that time an unrighteous doer of such things.

The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked:

God the righteous judge does not acquit the guilty at any time, much less all the times.

I heard there were churches teaching you should be sinless to be saved,

No. this is your false representation, in order to accuse the righteous, thinking to excuse your continued unrighteousness.

There are preachers of righteousness, who still preach the Bible gospel of repenting of all transgressions for Jesus' sake, in order to receive His faith, heart, Spirit of holiness, and blameless life.

Many are more like yourself, where you preach your own gospel of believing to be saved first, and then repent at leisure down the road, but never of all your transgressions.

You still like to keep your little of small sins remaining for personal funsies' sake.

but I didn't know it was that bad. Faith is following Jesus and fulfilling His word.

Not while sinning against Him.

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned.

You don't heed what you give lip service too.

You judge all people to be like yourself, and you condemn anyone not being like yourself.

Someone preaches doing the righteousness of God at all times for Jesus' sake, and you get offended and condemn the guiltless.

Rather than take it as hope of doing the same, you choose to sear your guilty conscience against the conviction of the Spirit of grace.
In any case, the sinless Head Jesus Christ does not having sinning transgressors living in His own body.

No member of His flesh sinned on earth, and no member of His body today is sinning in heaven nor on earth.

 

[marks]

You judge all people to be like yourself, and you condemn anyone not being like yourself.

Someone preaches doing the righteousness of God at all times for Jesus' sake, and you get offended and condemn the guiltless.

Rather than take it as hope of doing the same, you choose to sear your guilty conscience against the conviction of the Spirit of grace.

In any case, the sinless Head Jesus Christ does not having sinning transgressors living in His own body.

No member of His flesh sinned on earth, and no member of His body today is sinning in heaven nor on earth.

If you were able to honestly evaluate your replies to others you will see your ongoing choice to malign others, which is sin. It's lying. You have an honesty issue, both concerning yourself, and others.

If you truly believe that you must remain sinless to be saved, you will be suffering from cognitive dissonance, and may not really be able to see these things, having the deep emotional need to see yourself as completely sin-free.

Honesty, we need honesty with ourselves and others.

Much love!

 

[Ghada]

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Galatians 2:17 KJV

Thanks. This verse is good for the thread, that there is no sinning member of the body of the sinless Head Jesus Christ.

If seeking justification of Christ, we are found sinners like the world, we are not justified by Christ, because He is not a minister of sin.

God forbid the sinless Head is ministering sin to sinners in His own body.

We're found sinners according to Paul as well.

Neither your sinners' gospel nor personal Paul is the gospel and apostle Paul of the Bible.

This is a great example of how the righteous read the Bible with pure eyes:

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

And the unrighteous twist it with defiled minds.

Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Some Christians are so defiled in life and mind, that in order to justify themselves, they're actually willing to make Paul the apostle as much a double hearted sinner as themselves. Some even ensure they are justified more than Paul, by making him to be the chiefest of all Christian sinners ever.

Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

Some of course want all other Christians to be as much sinners as themselves, and rather than being shamed, they choose to condemn.

Not as Cain, And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

 

[Ghada]

Maybe this is not relevant but to me it helps answer the question you asked. However this is only my opinion. I’m a smoker.

There is no point of law against smoking, nor drinking, nor sex, etc...but only if something is corrupted by lust and addiction harmful to the Lord's body, which are our bodies.

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

And so, if it is sin to us, then keeping a clean conscience is more important than the liberty of the law of Christ.

And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

I want to quit and recently I took a free class on smoking. One step was to stop identifying as “I am a smoker trying to quit.” But instead “I am not a smoker” in making that commitment to identify with “I no longer smoke” rather than “I’m still a smoker.”

Well now, that is a big amen.

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:

So long as Christians persist in calling themselves sinners, then they fulfil their own prophecy of sinning. I compare that kind of Christianity to AA, where they must always acknowledge they are alcoholics as necessary in their path to sobriety.

Your smoker's class is more Biblical in nature than that kind of Christianity and AA.

To me this applies to identifying with sin too. I don’t think there is anything wrong with identifying with “I no longer sin”. Because it’s a commitment. It doesn’t claim (Imo) to be —arrived at— “I am no longer a sinner” but a commitment to the preparation to become “no longer identifiable with sin”.

This is true in a sense, and this simple reasoning alone ought at least forbid anyone naming the name of Christ, while calling themselves sinners in the body of the sinless Head.

And you are correct, that includes the practical results better than identifying with the devil.

However, don't rule out actually obeying the commandment to repent of all our sins and trespasses, and Jesus' word to go and sin no more.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

In the pure religion of Jesus Christ, it's not just about identification, but about doing the word. The great and exceeding promise of the good news of God, is that if we do repent of sinning, then He will give us His new heart and Spirit of Christ. And will surely enable us to please Him at all times, just like His Son did on earth:

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Another thing taught in the class was “change can happen in an instant” but this is when the change becomes visible to others in “no longer smoking”…but there is a preparation beforehand, a change of mind, a change in what infiltrates your life in the same way you welcomed cigarettes into your everyday lifestyle, you begin to unwelcome them. The same way you welcomed sin in, you unwelcome it. a new way by and through perpetration to be free from it.

Exactly. Paul calls it our spiritual warfare: we're not fighting with our own bodies, but with spiritual things seeking to sin against and harm our own bodies:

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

That may not make sense …but saying “I am a sinner” is (Imo) a way to say the commitment hasn’t been made to walk in a new way; letting it “free from sin” become just as much a part of your life as you allowed “sin” to become a part of it. if this is the mind set… “I am a sinner” weird that the Mind is in the Head and that Mind is Christ.

Exactly. Another great point for the subject of the thread.

How can we claim to have the mind of Christ, while also claiming we have the mind of sinners? Is Christ double minded? God forbid.

Thanks much. It's always good to hear fellow Christians exhorting victory over sinning, rather than some that condemn it as impossible. They even treat it as shameful to just speak of not sinning, as though doing righteousness is darkness.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

As you say, weird.

 

[Ghada]

If you were able to honestly evaluate your replies to others you will see your ongoing choice to malign others, which is sin. It's lying. You have an honesty issue, both concerning yourself, and others.

The troll is back again. I never even think about you, until you're back.

But, I guess it's like the man said, I must live rent-free in your mind.

It's nothing new. Cain couldn't just leave well enough alone. He just had to go have another talk with Abel. Cain really did want Abel to finally repent of all his righteous doing, and convert to the common religion of all sinners like Cain. Cain really was sincere about doing it for Abel's own good.

But righteous Abel just wouldn't listen to any of Cain's arguments, for at least some sinning in life. Not all the time, but like everyone else doing it, just some of the time at least.

They zealously affect you, but not well; yea,

having the deep emotional need to see yourself as completely sin-free.

God forbid.

Honesty, we need honesty with ourselves and others.

You are honest about being completely sinful. And you honestly accuse all others of being the same as you.

I am honest too. I do not at all accuse you of being righteous as my Lord Jesus.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

I would never ever dishonestly accuse you of not being a sinner at any time on earth.

 

[Ghada]

And so, we have another Bible proof, that there is no sinful member of the body of the sinless Head Jesus Christ.

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Christ is not the minister of sin to His own body, but only ministers righteousness to the saints of God in His body.

Therefore. those seeking to be justified by Christ, that are still found to be sinners, are not being ministered to by the sinless Head Jesus Christ.

They are still being ministered to by the sinful head of another body on earth.

 

[marks]

You are honest about being completely sinful. And you honestly accuse all others of being the same as you.

I am honest too. I do not at all accuse you of being righteous as my Lord Jesus.

This is not honest. I strongly suggest you take a strong look at yourself.

You reveal yourself in your words, maybe to everyone except yourself.

Much love!