"Church pastors" where are you???

[BarneyFife]

Well, perhaps not quite <giggle> But according to Scripture a fetus is merely a growth inside a womb.

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Ha, Ha, Ha. You're killing me.

Growth... Kind of like a cancer, I guess.

What other kinds of "growths" do you find inside a womb?"

Aren't growths usually physically attached to the host, rather than floating in something like amniotic fluid?

Does the hemoglobin of "growths" have as much more of an appetite for oxygen as a fetus does than the "host" mother?

How is a "growth" sanctified or consecrated by God (Jeremiah 1:5)?

Or since a fetus is only a "growth," was God actually lying and really just involved in a conspiracy to consecrate/sanctify Jeremiah's mother?
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[Stan B]

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Aren't growths usually physically attached to the host, rather than floating in something like amniotic fluid?.
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Not sure how to explain this to you, but a fetus is part of a woman’s body, attached by what some of us call an umbilical cord. And if the fetus is submerged in amniotic fluid, then it does take a whole lot of intelligence to realize that God has not breathed into it the “Breath of Life” or it would immediately drown.

I have no idea how God’s foreknowledge of Jeremiah being born a prophet, in any way relates to the subject.

 

[amigo de christo]

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What about premies?

Do they get promoted to "human" under your reign?

I'm sure the courts in Canada are guided by and subject to Scripture.
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When the value of life cannot be seen within the womb , IT WONT Be long before its not seen within society either .
A peoples who can claim that the unborn is not yet a life , WILL SOON also go along
with other ideals that even some amongst the living aint seen as LIFE . Watch out o world , soon enough
the value of the life of the elderly will be seen as the life within the womb . OBSOLTE and in the WAY of prosperity .
You think this cannot happen . IT has before , IT WILL AGAIN . Cause when folks
decide to make the call of what a soceity DEEMS IS VALID LIFE , rest assured it wont end with life within the womb
IT will reach out into all fabrics of society . AND THEN who is gonna stand and defend them elderly .
Many will do as they did with abortion . SUPPORT IT .

 

[amigo de christo]

A society that wont value life within the womb will go along with many other sinistir and evil things .
LIFE will become what govts deem is LIFE . MARK those words cause its already happening .
The elderly and those who are not productive members of society , well they will be seen as a blob
just like the fetus was . WHEN a govt and elites desire power they have a way with words . I would say ask hitler
but he is dead . FOLKS think this stuff cannot happen . THEY think history does not repeat . IT DOES
only this time its coming full force and not upon just a nation , BUT UPON THE ENTIRE WORLD .
When folks cannot value LIFE , WE GOT US A PROBLEM INDEED .

 

[amigo de christo]

The very govt and its policies that OL STAN so rigidly defends , WILL TURN ON HIM TOO .
They wont value your old age STAN . You will be seen as nothing more than a burden on society to them .
Your gift wrapping your own demise . YOU SHOULD have VALUED LIFE . YOU should have learned JESUS well
This world should never have shown GOD the spine and worse neither should the churches have done such a evil .
Well when evil is no longer corrected and those who dare to correct it are seen as haters
WOE WAIL ITS GONNA SWELL VERY FAST and THE WORLD that does such a thing
will soon realize the truth of GOD , but by then it will be too late . THE TRUTH of GOD
THE NATION that turns is back on GOD , gets turned INTO HELL . ITS COMING . Reprobation of minds has swolled
under the guise of tolerance , love and unity . Satan knew how to use those words too . I am just so sorrowful
that even so many christains so called fell for it and have been transformed to CONFORM to the world .
And now after years of work they have grown very hateful against THE VERY TRUTH that could have saved them .

 

[David Boyer]

Yeah, which proves that a fetus is not a living being, or the one who cause the abortion would be executed.

That is what the verses say. If the woman gives birth prematurely and no harm follows (baby survives, ie. NOT a miscarriage) then a fine is levied.
If the baby dies then life for life. v23
Just read the text without showing your bias. Language skills help here.

Exodus 21:22-25
“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

 

[Stan B]

That is what the verses say. If the woman gives birth prematurely and no harm follows (baby survives, ie. NOT a miscarriage) then a fine is levied.
If the baby dies then life for life. v23
Just read the text without showing your bias. Language skills help here.

Exodus 21:22-25
“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

Along with a number of other translations, Quoting from the NASB which the majority of scholars regard as the most accurate literal translation of the Bible:

“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. NASB 1977

If you believe abortion is evil, then you have to designate God and His priests as evil, when He demands that a fetus conceived from an adultress affair:

"But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” Numbers 5:20-22 NIV

 

[David Boyer]

Along with a number of other translations, Quoting from the NASB which the majority of scholars regard as the most accurate literal translation of the Bible:

“And if men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him; and he shall pay as the judges decide. NASB 1977

If you believe abortion is evil, then you have to designate God and His priests as evil, when He demands that a fetus conceived from an adultress affair:

"But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.” Numbers 5:20-22 NIV

You missed the point again. It is the phrase "no further injury". Death of the child would be a further injury.
It is nice how you can just change your bible version to match your theology. Go back to the Hebrew if you want to be honest. Try reading theses verses in Young's Literal (or the Hebrew if so inclined)
Many versions of the bible make it clearer that a miscarriage is not the interpretation but the premature birth is the better interpretation.

The Numbers verses are a curse... not a recipe for an abortion.
A pregnant woman could consume the water from the priest and nothing happen. Only if there was adultery would a miscarriage occur.

 

[Stan B]

You missed the point again. It is the phrase "no further injury". Death of the child would be a further injury.
It is nice how you can just change your bible version to match your theology. Go back to the Hebrew if you want to be honest. Try reading theses verses in Young's Literal (or the Hebrew if so inclined)
Many versions of the bible make it clearer that a miscarriage is not the interpretation but the premature birth is the better interpretation.

The Numbers verses are a curse... not a recipe for an abortion.
A pregnant woman could consume the water from the priest and nothing happen. Only if there was adultery would a miscarriage occur.

The penalty in that passage for causing an abortion, is a mere fine; a parking ticket. A dead fetus has no value. But if the woman is injured, then "eye for an eye' law applies.

 

[David Boyer]

The penalty in that passage for causing an abortion, is a mere fine; a parking ticket. A dead fetus has no value. But if the woman is injured, then "eye for an eye' law applies.

Incorrect reading by you there.
The woman is injured already. She was struck so that the "child came out"... better translation.
Your ideology is blinding you to reading things as they are.
You want these verses to back your position, so to you they do.
Get your sloppy theology out of Gods word and back to where it came from.

 

[Stan B]

Incorrect reading by you there.
The woman is injured already. She was struck so that the "child came out"... better translation.
Your ideology is blinding you to reading things as they are.
You want these verses to back your position, so to you they do.
Get your sloppy theology out of Gods word and back to where it came from.

My ideology is based soley on Scripture, not the false proclamations posted by the Biblically illiterate anti-God anti-abortion bunch.

So it would be reasonble for you to quote from the Bible where abortion is forbidden; you know, like "Thou shalt not have an abortion!!" That would be a good place to start, because I have never heard a single syllable from Scripture stating that it is against God's Law!!

 

[David Boyer]

My ideology is based soley on Scripture, not the false proclamations posted by the Biblically illiterate anti-God anti-abortion bunch.

So it would be reasonble for you to quote from the Bible where abortion is forbidden; you know, like "Thou shalt not have an abortion!!" That would be a good place to start, because I have never heard a single syllable from Scripture stating that it is against God's Law!!

I'm simply refuting your argument. I am not making the claim that God says abortion is bad or good.
Try to keep up. You made a silly argument and I defeated it. Simple.
If your ideology is based solely on scripture than prove it... State your ideology with biblical references and allow the group to be convinced by your wonderful argumentation.
Or be prepared for your arguments to be shredded by your betters.

By the way, why do you only rely on the one version(or is there another translation that butchers the Hebrew like NASB, no mater what the "scholars" say) of the Bible that gives you the words you need to come to these conclusions?

 

[Stan B]

I'm simply refuting your argument. I am not making the claim that God says abortion is bad or good.
Try to keep up. You made a silly argument and I defeated it. Simple.
If your ideology is based solely on scripture than prove it... State your ideology with biblical references and allow the group to be convinced by your wonderful argumentation.
Or be prepared for your arguments to be shredded by your betters.

By the way, why do you only rely on the one version(or is there another translation that butchers the Hebrew like NASB, no mater what the "scholars" say) of the Bible that gives you the words you need to come to these conclusions?

 

[Stan B]

I'm simply refuting your argument. I am not making the claim that God says abortion is bad or good.
Try to keep up. You made a silly argument and I defeated it. Simple.
If your ideology is based solely on scripture than prove it... State your ideology with biblical references and allow the group to be convinced by your wonderful argumentation.
Or be prepared for your arguments to be shredded by your betters.

By the way, why do you only rely on the one version(or is there another translation that butchers the Hebrew like NASB, no mater what the "scholars" say) of the Bible that gives you the words you need to come to these conclusions?

I consider the NASB the most accurate literal translation of Scripture. I came to that conclusion after reading reviews of the top WELL KNOWN Scholars who say "The New American Standard Bible is a literal translation from the original texts, well suited to study because of its accurate rendering of the source texts." Until I exceed their knowledge, I am satisfied to regard the NASB, as the Rock of Biblical accuracy.

Your declaration that the NASB butchers Hebrew, is something I have never heard suggested before; and it won't change my study habits.

 

[David Boyer]

I consider the NASB the most accurate literal translation of Scripture. I came to that conclusion after reading reviews of the top WELL KNOWN Scholars who say "The New American Standard Bible is a literal translation from the original texts, well suited to study because of its accurate rendering of the source texts." Until I exceed their knowledge, I am satisfied to regard the NASB, as the Rock of Biblical accuracy.

Your declaration that the NASB butchers Hebrew, is something I have never heard suggested before; and it won't change my study habits.

Pride goeth before destruction.
Enjoy the fall.

 

[Matthias]

“Scripture is clear that all humans have worth and deserve protection because they are created in the Image of God, His masterpieces.

The Biblical standpoint is plain and distinctive, children in the womb are just as much a human at the point of conception as those who are already born. This is demonstrated in two key Scriptures.

First, from the Old Testament, Genesis 5:21-22 reads: ‘Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was childless. The LORD answered his prayer, and his wife Rebekah became pregnant. The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, “Why is this happening to me?” So she went to inquire of the LORD.’

It is important to note here that the occupants in Rebekah’s womb are addressed in these verses as ‘babies’. The Hebrew word used here for ‘babies’ is … (banim) which can also be translated into English as ‘children’ or more specifically ‘sons.’ It is of significant importance to also realize that the word ‘banim’ is repeatedly used throughout the Old Testament to refer to children outside the womb.

This important truth is, furthermore, reaffirmed in the New Testament. …”

(Baxter Boyd, “WHY PRO-LIFE? Abortion kills a human and rips apart God’s most cherished creation,” The Kentucky Citizen, Vol. XXXI, No.3, 3rd Quarter 2022)

 

[Stan B]

“Scripture is clear that all humans have worth and deserve protection because they are created in the Image of God, His masterpieces.
The Biblical standpoint is plain and distinctive, children in the womb are just as much a human at the point of conception as those who are already born. This is demonstrated in two key Scriptures.

Children in the womb are just as much human at the point of conception as those aiready born???? That is certainly the opposite of what God says. God says, that one becomes a living being ONLY after God breathes into it the Breath of Life. You, on the other hand declare God and His Scriptures to be a LIE. Sounds like unbridled demonic blasphemy to me.

God says that one becomes a living being only after God Breathes into the fetus the Breath of Life; and that can only happen after the fetus exits the womb.

"Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Gen 2:7

And for all of us, life started the moment God breathed into us, the breath of life. When is your birthday? The day you were born, or the day you were conceived?

So what really happens in an abortion? Since the fetus has never been born, it is not a living being. Before we are even born, God already has us, our spirit which comes from Him, ready to enter a body on earth. The fact that the anticipated body was disposed of via abortion makes no difference.

Abortion does not destroy the spirit. In the absence of an appropriate body, our spirit stays with God until appropriate accommodation is found for that spirit. Whatever existed in our "earthly tent" merely returns to dust. And when our body returns to dust we/our "spirit returns to God who gave it." Eccl 12:7 And with God it awaits a new earthly tent to become available.

Until we exit the womb, the mother provides the interim breath via her body, but a fetus does not become a viable living being until it exits the womb and is able to Breath on it's own, with the Breath God gives as a living being.

 

[David Boyer]

Children in the womb are just as much human at the point of conception as those aiready born???? That is certainly the opposite of what God says. God says, that one becomes a living being ONLY after God breathes into it the Breath of Life. You, on the other hand declare God and His Scriptures to be a LIE. Sounds like unbridled demonic blasphemy to me.

God says that one becomes a living being only after God Breathes into the fetus the Breath of Life; and that can only happen after the fetus exits the womb.

"Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being." Gen 2:7

And for all of us, life started the moment God breathed into us, the breath of life. When is your birthday? The day you were born, or the day you were conceived?

So what really happens in an abortion? Since the fetus has never been born, it is not a living being. Before we are even born, God already has us, our spirit which comes from Him, ready to enter a body on earth. The fact that the anticipated body was disposed of via abortion makes no difference.

Abortion does not destroy the spirit. In the absence of an appropriate body, our spirit stays with God until appropriate accommodation is found for that spirit. Whatever existed in our "earthly tent" merely returns to dust. And when our body returns to dust we/our "spirit returns to God who gave it." Eccl 12:7 And with God it awaits a new earthly tent to become available.

Until we exit the womb, the mother provides the interim breath via her body, but a fetus does not become a viable living being until it exits the womb and is able to Breath on it's own, with the Breath God gives as a living being.

Because of a special case (Adam) you make generalisations about everyone? Poor eisegesis.
Birthday... is the day of birth. But conception day would be the day I became human, but it isn't celebrated in the west.
Abortion doesn't destroy the spirit, but neither does murder.
So you believe in reincarnation. Waiting on a "new earthly tent" is very reincarnation sounding.
What if the baby needs a ventilator? Are they not alive until they can breath on their own? What if they needed a ventilator until they die at the age of 90? Do they never become a person? A person in an iron lung is no longer a person?

 

[Stan B]

Because of a special case (Adam) you make generalisations about everyone? Poor eisegesis.
Birthday... is the day of birth. But conception day would be the day I became human, but it isn't celebrated in the west.

I have no idea what you are talking about. God starts out Scripture telling us how a person becomes a living being. Because I believe what God says, you call that poor exegesis!!

Your exegesis is that God is a LIAR??And I am stoopid for believing God!!

At the same time God also told us how the serpent operates: “Did God really say that??”

How do I escape the lies and BS I have been fed by studying the demonic NASB??

 

[Matthias]

A person begotten and conceived is created.

Abortion destroys a living, created, human person.

Abortion is murder of the unborn.