Circumcision Without Hands

[Ritajanice]

Seriously, I close one thread down because of your arguments, but you choose to continue the name calling and personal evaluations of one another here. You have mentioned about many guests watching the threads and yet you choose to witness through bickering ……so what does that convey !?
Discuss the subject

It means that we need to listen to what you have just said, take it seriously on board and stop bickering...thank you Lord through @Rita for the seriously needed. “ Wake Up Call”......thank you Rita, it needed to be said by one who has authority on this forum.

I hear you loud and clear....thank you Lord.

 

[Johann]

Why is "dead faith", not "Dead Salvation"

Dead faith IS dead salvation

2.) Why is Salvation not based on how we behave, or the work we do, after we are born again?

SALVATION IS DEFINITELY BASED ON HOW WE BEHAVE-no question! Do you agree with Lordship salvation?


James says, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26).

Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith.



James 2:14–26 is sometimes taken out of context in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, but that is contrary to many other passages of Scripture.

James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works.

Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation.

Faith in Christ always results in good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or dead faith and is not saved.

Paul basically says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10. James contrasts two different types of faith—true faith that saves and false faith that is dead.

Many profess to be Christians, but their lives and priorities indicate otherwise.

Jesus put it this way: “By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’” (Matthew 7:16–23).

Notice that the message of Jesus is the same as the message of James.

Obedience to God is the mark of true saving faith. James uses the examples of Abraham and Rahab to illustrate the obedience that accompanies salvation. Simply saying we believe in Jesus does not save us, nor does religious service. What saves us is the Holy Spirit’s regeneration of our hearts, and that regeneration will invariably be seen in a life of faith featuring ongoing obedience to God.

Misunderstanding the relationship of faith and works comes from not understanding what the Bible teaches about salvation. There are really two errors in regards to works and faith.

The first error is “easy believism,” the teaching that, as long as a person prayed a prayer or said, “I believe in Jesus,” at some point in his life, then he is saved, no matter what.

So a person who, as a child, raised his hand in a church service is considered saved, even though he has never shown any desire to walk with God since and is, in fact, living in blatant sin.

This teaching, sometimes called “decisional regeneration,” is dangerous and deceptive. The idea that a profession of faith saves a person, even if he lives like the devil afterwards, assumes a new category of believer called the “carnal Christian.”

What you are calling me-Carnal-

This allows various ungodly lifestyles to be excused: a man may be an unrepentant adulterer, liar, or bank robber, but he’s saved; he’s just “carnal.” Yet, as we can see in James 2, an empty profession of faith—one that does not result in a life of obedience to Christ—is in reality a dead faith that cannot save.

The other error in regards to works and faith is to attempt to make works part of what justifies us before God. The mixture of works and faith to earn salvation is totally contrary to what Scripture teaches. Romans 4:5 says, “To him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.” James 2:26 says, “Faith without works is dead.” There is no conflict between these two passages. We are justified by grace through faith, and the natural result of faith in the heart is works that all can see. The works that follow salvation do not make us righteous before God; they simply flow from the regenerated heart as naturally as water flows from a spring.

Salvation is a sovereign act of God whereby an unregenerate sinner has the “washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit” poured out on him (Titus 3:5), thereby causing him to be born again (John 3:3). When this happens, God gives the forgiven sinner a new heart and puts a new spirit within him (Ezekiel 36:26). God removes his sin-hardened heart of stone and fills him with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit then causes the saved person to walk in obedience to God’s Word (Ezekiel 36:26–27).

Faith without works is dead because it reveals a heart that has not been transformed by God. When we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, our lives will demonstrate that new life. Our works will be characterized by obedience to God. Unseen faith will become seen by the production of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives (Galatians 5:22). Christians belong to Christ, the Good Shepherd. As His sheep we hear His voice and follow Him (John 10:26–30).

Faith without works is dead because faith results in a new creation, not a repetition of the same old patterns of sinful behavior. As Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:17, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”

Faith without works is dead because it comes from a heart that has not been regenerated by God. Empty professions of faith have no power to change lives.

Those who pay lip service to faith but who do not possess the Spirit will hear Christ Himself say to them, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers” (Matthew 7:23).

I fully endorse this article-

Now if you have intelligent questions-we may continue-and please stay focused on the topic
Thanks
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Seriously, I close one thread down because of your arguments, but you choose to continue the name calling and personal evaluations of one another here. You have mentioned about many guests watching the threads and yet you choose to witness through bickering ……so what does that convey !?
Discuss the subject

Praise God for godly Staff members! @Rita if this rebuke was to me, I'll take it like a man!
Johann.

 

[Behold]

SALVATION IS DEFINITELY BASED ON HOW WE BEHAVE-no question! Do you agree with Lordship salvation?

1.) Faith is not the Savior, so, if we have slow faith, or dead faith, we are already born again, before that happened.

Faith is not the Savior.
God is the Savior, who saved us THROUGH our Faith. one time... DONE. = Born again is the proof.
Faith didn't die on the Cross for our sin.
Faith is not the Savior.

People who do not understand Salvation have "faith in faith"< and that is not faith in Christ.

"as long as i hold unto my Faith, i wont go to Hell".

NO...
The reason you wont Go to Hell if you are born again, is because you are born again.

Also, remember that God and Christ are always faithful to us, even when we are not faithful to them.

2 Timothy 2:13​

If you BELIEVE NOT....(no faith, dead faith)...Yet GOD abideth Faithful, as He cannot deny Himself"


Philippians 1:6.... God is FAITHFUL to complete your Salvation.



A.) Jesus said.. "I will never leave you or forsake you"...

He never said, "only if you are good, work hard, practice Lordship Salvation, and keep a very strong faith...THEN< i'll hang around".

Johann,.... Christ is IN the born again.... This is why we go to Heaven., as where Jesus is... So are the Born again, forever. "IN Christ"...

God never told us... "Ok, i'll save you, only if you hold unto your faith and keep it HOT and ALIVE".

No, He never said that was required. He only said. "if you Believe in Jesus".

"You take Jesus, and I'll take You".

And if you did, He forgave your sin through the Blood and death of Jesus, and gave you the new birth, and that is eternal.

Eternal Life and Eternal Salvation and being BORN AGAIN.... are all the same thing.

Salvation is based on the Cross of Christ, where Jesus died for your sin, Johann.
Is that your "behavior"?

2.) And No, "lordship "Salvation, is a false theology, that tries to prove that works and salvation, are Redemption.

Lordship Theology is "MAN MADE"... Just like CALVINISM.

The people that are slaves to the "lordship" doctrine, dont yet realize that JESUS IS LORD, no matter if you believe it or not.
and one day soon, "every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord".... because He is right now, and forever.
He is Lord of ALL. All of Creation.... but He's not the SAVIOR of all.

Most Believers are at this very moments, not doing anything for Jesus, or God, and have not, in years.
That is dead faith, but, ... their Salvation was a Gift, that they didnt earn., and they can't lose.
You can't stop being born again., but you can stop being a good disciple.

DEMAS = was a terrible disciple, and he's in Heaven. He left the ministry, but He could not leave being "Born again".

The Gift of Salvation, does not require you to work to keep it., as Jesus finished all the work necessary as Salvation, on The Cross.
Our Work, can never equal His Sacrifice on The Cross, so, never believe that what we do can be compared to what He has already completed : as the finished work of Jesus on The Cross.

We work because we are saved, and never to try to stay saved.

 

[Rita]

Praise God for godly Staff members! @Rita if this rebuke was to me, I'll take it like a man!
Johann.

I must admit that you were included, but it was aimed at others as well. Trust me I know how easy it is to ‘ react ‘ as I did it myself many years ago when I first became a member here. I had some right arguments, but I realised that I was taking offence and reacting. I learned to take a step back and respond, and sometimes to walk away.

 

[Keturah]

I have found folks  choose to either hear spiritually what is said, when we speak the word of God, or reject / refuse what is said.
Then it becomes a case of " be it on your own head "!

 I do think the Lord NO LONGER holds us responsible for the refusers of the truth in the word of God.

 

[Johann]

1.) Faith is not the Savior, so, if we have slow faith, or dead faith, we are already born again, before that happened.

Slow faith-dead faith-before WHAT happen?

"as long as i hold unto my Faith, i wont go to Hell".

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


For by grace, etc.
This may truly be called exceeding riches of grace, for ye are saved by grace. Grace has the article, the grace of God, in Eph_2:5, Eph_2:7.
And that
Not faith, but the salvation.
Of God
Emphatic. Of God is it the gift.

​

2 Timothy 2:13 if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now
2 Timothy 2:13 if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now
2 Timothy 2:13 if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now
If you BELIEVE NOT....(no faith, dead faith)...Yet GOD abideth Faithful, as He cannot deny Himself"
2 Timothy 2:13 if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now
2 Timothy 2:13 if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now
2 Timothy 2:13 if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now
2 Timothy 2:13 if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now
2 Timothy 2:13 if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now
2 Timothy 2:13 if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now
Jesus said.. "I will never leave you or forsake you"...

Adequately answered you on this scripture.

Salvation is based on the Cross of Christ, where Jesus died for your sin, Johann.
Is that your "behavior"?

I have shown you, from scriptures, how we ought to behave and conduct ourselves AFTER our rebirth.


If we believe not (εἰ ἀπιστοῦμεν)

Better, are faithless or untrue to him. Comp. Rom_3:3. In Pastorals only here.
Faithful (πιστὸς)

If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful,.... The Syriac and Ethiopic versions read, "if we believe not him". This may be understood, either of such who are altogether destitute of faith, who do not believe in Christ at all; and particularly do not believe what was just now said concerning his denying such that deny him, but mock and scoff at his coming, and at a future judgment: this unbelief of theirs will not make void his faith or faithfulness; see Rom_3:3, he will abide faithful to his word of threatening; and what he says in Mar_16:16 will be found to be an everlasting truth:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

or it may be understood of true believers, whose faith sometimes is very low, as to its exercise on Christ, and with reference to their future glory and happiness; but Christ is faithful to all his, covenant engagements for them, to bring them to glory, and to every word of promise concerning their happiness, and to every branch of the faithful saying above mentioned; and he is ever the same in his love to them, and in the efficacy of his blood, righteousness, and sacrifice; and his salvation is an everlasting and unchangeable one; nor do the saints' interest in it, and security by it, depend upon their acts of believing, or their frames, but upon the firmness and unchangeableness of Christ, the object of faith.
He cannot deny himself; he cannot go contrary to his word; that would be to act contrary to his nature and perfections, and would be a denying of himself, which is not possible; wherefore his faithfulness will never fail, even though, the faith of his people does, as to the exercise of it.
Gill

Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.


True to his own nature, righteous character, and requirements, according to which he cannot accept as faithful one who has proved untrue to him. To do this would be to deny himself.



God’s part, “faith” ours.

And that (kai touto). Neuter, not feminine tautē, and so refers not to pistis (feminine) or to charis (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ex humōn, out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (dōron) and not the result of our work.
MV

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The issue with the cult that teaches "sinless perfection", is that they say this is... to defeat sin in life and also be without sin, as if this can't be the Work of The Cross and The Grace of God.
Like this isn't possible, when in fact, God saved us to exist in that Holy Life, that HE created.. for us to exist within.

Are you are referring to me, just because I teach sinlessness? I do NOT teach sinless perfection. And the rest of your statement, if about me, is totally false. I sure wish you would try to understand the scriptures I give you.
Sinlessness and Perfection are two different stages. Both reachable through Christ the Author and Finisher of not only our Faith but our Perfection "You shall BE MADE Perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect". That means mature in all fruit of the Spirit.
Even "sinlessness" is not sinless of ALL sin, just sinless of willful sin in the eyes and judgement of God. Unintentional sin is what Jesus cleanses in 1 John 1:7 WHILE walking in the Spirit/Light. Though simple and according to the Bible, it is too complex for some to understand.

J is too far gone with unbelief that he won't even believe the words of Jesus. John 8:32-36. His righteousness is by works, not by the power of a cleansed nature. In fact, it is not a matter of won't but can't. 1 Cor. 2:9-16

Rita seems to understand from experience like I do.

You and I are close, but I admit I do try to teach you what you haven't grasped, but you don't want it, even trying to tell me what I believe, but I actually believe totally the opposite, especially about the Cross and Grace and works.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Behold .....when I first became born again.....it overwhelmed me, I tried to act like Jesus, I was trying to please him, it’s really hard to explain.

I believe it’s the role of the Holy Spirit to make us into the image of Jesus....then there is the renewing of our minds....that is fundamental to understand that and what it means...to be honest it was you who opened my ears up to what that meant...or should I say the Holy Spirit opened up my ears.

I can do nothing in my own strength I wait on the Lord, I don’t have to worry about anything ,as I know in my heart/spirit, that he is working mightily in me....I see him at work in me everyday.

It’s my old mindset that pops up now and again....gets less and less and I’m very aware now of the renewing of my mind..so I recognise this old mindset when it pops up quite quickly.

Just my thoughts and opinions.

 

[Ritajanice]

Rita seems to understand from experience like I do.

Amen!!....Sis.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Amen!!....Sis.

Please don't believe what Behold says about what I believe. He hasn't understood it yet, and says I believe the opposite of what I do. We are close to agreeing, but what we don't agree on are hundred miles apart. LOL

 

[Behold]

Please don't believe what Behold says about what I believe. He hasn't understood it yet, and says I believe the opposite of what I do. We are close to agreeing, but what we don't agree on are hundred miles apart. LOL

I told her what you told me., a few times., on different Threads, same topic.

You told me that a born again Christian can lose their Salvation.
You explained why you believe that...

Have you changed your Theology?

 

[Ritajanice]

Please don't believe what Behold says about what I believe. He hasn't understood it yet, and says I believe the opposite of what I do. We are close to agreeing, but what we don't agree on are hundred miles apart. LOL

I LOVE you both....and can understand what you are both saying....it’s a pleasure listening to you both ministering the word....and I thank God for you....Praise Jesus.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I told her what you told me., a few times., on different threads, same topic.

You told me that a born again Christian can lose their Salvation.
You explained why you believe that...

Have you changed your Theology?

I believe only a born again Christian is sanctified at justification. It is one act and it is when we've repented and receive the Holy Spirit and are born again. The born again cannot sin. They don't have the desire to. However, they still have free choice, just like Adam did.

You don't believe that Hebrews is written to the born again. I do. If you did you could see that when it is impossible to bring someone back to repentance it is because they had been born again. An unregenerated "Christian" that has never received the Holy Spirit and just going through the motions can always repent. I know, though it took me 30 years! Those are the people in the OSAS that believe they can willfully sin and still be saved.

26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven. 35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:

37 “For yet a little while,And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”

39 But we are not of those who draw back to [i]perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

Losing our salvation is a choice. But that is not the issue that you completely misquote me on.

 

[Behold]

Nonetheless-too much mud slinging here-and you have a problem with me.

No, @Rita

it's not "nonetheless"... Its not..."oh it does not matter that i told her some deception, and now we'll just overlook it.

See, she is a MOD< and you can't play games with her, at my expense.

Not going to happen., Johann.

You abused RitaJanice yesterday, and today you are "correcting" me all day, until you decide to play a shell game with this Mod.

 

[Behold]

people in the OSAS that believe they can willfully sin and still be saved.

Losing our salvation is a choice.

Yes, you confirmed it for @Ritajanice

You just taught that the born again can lose their Salvation, and you gave your usual "Hebrews" as i said you would.

I just wanted her to know.
I told her what you told me, and you confirmed it., tho i said you would do it in about 15 mins.
It actually took you about 24 hrs.

Also, i do believe that some of Hebrews is written TO the Born again, but not all of it..
Just like Acts 28:28 is not written to the born again.

Sometimes these Apostles are preaching to the LOST... and that is not them speaking to the Born Again, in the verse.

 

[Ritajanice]

I believe only a born again Christian is sanctified at justification. It is one act and it is when we've repented and receive the Holy Spirit and are born again. The born again cannot sin. They don't have the desire to. However, they still have free choice, just like Adam did.

Hi Sis.....I must say....I don’t believe we have free choice ,when it comes to doing the will of God...it must be done....I’ve been chastised by God and it ain’t pleasant.

I’m only to willing to be obedient and do his will...he knows what’s best for me...I don’t....we must be obedient or there will be consequences...imo/ belief

 

[Enoch111]

...Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God...

This is addressed to born again believers who are already justified, and also sanctified in Christ Jesus (having received the gift of the Holy Spirit). Being justified they already have the imputed righteousness of Christ. But what about their practical day-to-day righteousness?

Paul is telling them that they must not yield the members of their bodies to unrighteousness (sinning). Meaning quit sinning and walk away from sinful thoughts and sinful behavior. And how would they do that? By being FULLY YIELDED to God. By being under the control of the Holy Spirit. By obedience to Christ and to the Word of God. By focusing on righteousness and holiness.

Now genuine Christians generally desire to please the Lord and do His will. But they cannot claim to be sinlessly perfect, since they may sin by omission or commission. They may allow the flesh to momentarily cause them to sin. Let's say in a fit of anger or frustration or cowardice. Moses -- the man of God -- had a fit of anger and forfeited his opportunity to enter the promised land. Peter temporarily began to shun Gentile Christians because of Judaizers and had to be corrected by Paul. No doubt he quit that kind of behavior.

And then we have those promoting false doctrines and twisting the Scriptures. They are definitely sinning, although they imagine they are proclaiming the truth. All the cults believe that they are truly Christians, yet many deny the deity of Christ. That in itself is a sin. Indeed the apostle John tells us that those who reject the doctrine of Christ are antichrists!

 

[Ritajanice]

You just taught that the born again can lose their Salvation, and you gave your usual "Hebrews" as i said you would.

I don’t believe and NEVER will believe, that a Born again can lose their salvation....we have been birthed period...we can’t be un- birthed...never in a million yrs...my belief.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Hi Sis.....I must say....I don’t believe we have free choice ,when it comes to doing the will of God...it must be done....I’ve been chastised by God and it ain’t pleasant.

I’m only to willing to be obedient and do his will...he knows what’s best for me...I don’t....we must be obedient or there will be consequences...imo/ belief

Yes, but it was your error that wasn't God's will that you were chastised on. That is free will. But I doubt it was a sin unto death. You have been completely circumcised from sins unto death, so it was probably a minor offense that is a sin NOT unto death. We are sinless as long as we obey our conscience. But not perfect until ALL the minor sins of immature fruit are matured by the vinekeeper. John 15. Then we are made perfect.