• Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,610
6,451
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Question: What is the purpose of the Sabbath day commandment, or what does it really tells us to do? Please return an honest answer.
Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man. Why? Three reasons.
First, to rest. To stop work and cease concerns about making money, spending, carnal concerns etc . To lay aside worldly cares for one day, and focus on Christ and His ministry to the world. To recharge the batteries do to speak. Doing good for your neighbor. Sharing the gospel with strangers. Fellowshipping with like minded Christians in the presence of God.

Two. To remember from whence we came. The Sabbath is a memorial of creation.
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, for... Because... In six
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,825
2,457
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Jesus was not born by accident under the law. And as I said, he was circumcised, was he not? He was a Jew according to the flesh. And you know what it means to be a Jew and of the circumcision, right? That He is to keep and observe the Law. In other words, if he sins, he is condemned and will be judged by the Law. But then He did not transgress any and have kept perfectly the law. That he needs no animal sacrifice for sin is not because he was not under the law, but because He sinned not and have not transgressed the law. As such one can say that Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirement of the Law.

Tong
R1632

Sorry, brother, but we disagree. Jesus was not righteous because he observed the Law. He was righteous from birth before he did anything under the Law. He was God in the flesh. He had no need to observe the Law to be cleansed of sin. And that was the purpose of the Law, to temporarily cleanse from sin.

Jesus had a different reason for observing the Law, and that was to show himself as the Redeemer from sin, and to show that this was the purpose of the Law. The Law had always been designed to lead to eternal redemption through Messiah. Inasmuch as it only provided temporary atonement, it showed the need for Messianic atonement to last forever.

So Jesus came down to earth to live under the Law not to keep the Law, but to show that the Law had been designed to lead to faith in him. He practiced the Law by modeling himself as the ultimate Redeemer, and not as a sinner in Israel who had to observe the Law to obtain temporary atonement.

Jesus certainly had no need to observe the Law except that he could only do what God his Father wanted him to do. And God wanted him to observe the Law for reasons different than for how it applied to regular Israelis. He came to fulfill his role as Redeemer, and didn't seek atonement for himself. In this sense he was most certainly *not* under the Law!
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,825
2,457
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
And @Randy Kluth too, regarding 2 Peter 3:16

2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Have you tried to find out what “these thingsrefer to? Look in the context. And what is clear is that, Peter was not saying that all of what Paul had written are things hard to understand. Peter was specifically referring to Paul’s writing about “these things”.

Tong
R1634

True, but there is a broader context to this, with respect to Paul's ability to communicate.

2 Cor 10.10 For some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing.”
11.6 I may indeed be untrained as a speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.
Eph 6.19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel...

Paul was aware that his language had to be spiritual to communicate the spiritual things of Christ. So he had to rely on divine revelation to communicate his message. And as an untrained speaker he had to rely on the good will of his listeners to understand his arguments. Wicked men would not be convinced, and undoubtedly tried to poke holes in his arguments and try to point out inconsistencies.

The "matters" Paul spoke of involves the *righteousness* that Christians are called to demonstrate in their lives. We are to persevere in our testimony because God is patient with all, knowing that we are all saddled with the condition of a Sin Nature. God wants us to testify in the midst of persecution, so as to reach all with the Gospel of Christ's forgiveness.

The truth remains. If many wish to confuse Paul's teaching, having evil motives, this doesn't help those who are truly trying to understand Paul's words. The claim that he is inconsistent rings in our ears even as we try to find congruency in his theology. Having a backdrop of confused theology makes it difficult to understand Paul, who is indeed difficult to understand regardless, due to his untrained speech, our lack of knowledge of the ancient culture, and the need to focus upon spiritual things.
 

BarneyFife

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2019
9,122
6,356
113
Central PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I've had a life-long burden to know the source of Paul's doctrines--at least from young adulthood. Usually I know where somebody's beliefs come from, but Paul has eluded me more than nearly all others. I think God's heard my prayer because over the last few decades I've grown in understanding Paul. I won't say I have his number--I don't. I just have a much better appreciation for where his ideas came from, biblically, as opposed to what came to him directly from God.

One thing that has come to me in more recent times is the fact that Paul abbreviated things. That's why he's so hard to understand at times. He doesn't provide a glossary, so you just have to sort of read through his material, and much of the truth comes through as if by osmosis. ;)

A perfect example of this is his use of language in Romans, where all seems to be contradictory until one realizes that he is not making any attempt to resolve the lack of consistency in word use. He is expecting the reader understands how he uses words by their context, and then apply different definitions to the same words.

"Faith" is a word that is used in different contexts to mean different things. For Paul, it can mean Saving Faith or simply OT faith. As always, context rules in defining what words mean.
Excellent post, my friend. Just extraordinarily insightful. :)

I would add that, especially in Romans 7 & 8, Paul is trying to (among other things, no doubt) explain paradoxes. You know, the idea that two things that seem absolutely contradictory are, in fact, harmonious. I perceive that Paul had an extremely high IQ and that it takes a consecrated mind and heart to begin to plumb the depths of much of what he wrote. And, as simple as His teachings were, it was the same way (but different?) with Christ.

I gravitate more toward the words of Christ, because the more I consider His words, the more I come to know/understand Him. With Paul, not so much. Not that I disregard him, but I find I have to read him more lightly, because I have a tendency to be overly analytical, and the more I dig into his work, the more confused I become, even though I find him to be wonderfully burdened for souls and their growth in the knowledge of Christ.

I wonder if you would like to share what you think might be the most misunderstood passages of the Pauline epistles?

For me, it would definitely include Romans 7 & 8, Colossians 2, and 2 Corinthians 3. I guess that's fairly obvious by now. :)
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,610
6,451
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Question: What is the purpose of the Sabbath day commandment, or what does it really tells us to do? Please return an honest answer.
Jesus said, the Sabbath was made for man. Why? Three reasons.
First, to rest. To stop work and cease concerns about making money, spending, carnal concerns etc . To lay aside worldly cares for one day, and focus on Christ and His ministry to the world. To recharge the batteries so to speak. Doing good for your neighbor. Sharing the gospel with strangers. Fellowshipping with like minded Christians in the presence of God.

Two. To remember from whence we came. The Sabbath is a memorial of creation.
"Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy... for... Because... In six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
If the Christian Church had honored the true Sabbath, remembering the Lord of creation throughout it's existence there would now be no suggestion in the church of theistic evolution or such anti biblical nonsense. Sabbath keepers l are true creationists.

Three. Remembering the Sabbath is a recognition that without Christ, we can do nothing. It is a recognition of utter dependence upon Christ for all things, particularly salvation. It is a physical real time expression of our spiritual rest in Christ, our surrender to and our recognition of His authority in our lives, and an expression of our faith in Jesus' word which says, if ye love Me, keep My Commandments.

@GerhardEbersoehn has his own understanding of a connection between the Sabbath and the Resurrection. I respect his passion and love for Christ, and I'm unsure as to the reasons for his particular stand on that issue, but he is certainly fully entitled to them. He has a large amount of angst against the church I support, but we do agree on certain basic truths. The Sabbath is still absolutely totally relevant to Christianity as are the other nine Commandments. To attempt to set it aside is totally antithetical to common sense and to Jesus own words when He said, I am not come to destroy the law or the prophets, but to fulfill. We also agree I believe that doing away with the Sabbath, for whatever reason but in particular to replace it with Sunday, is purely a Catholic invention and to follow that tradition is a conscious submission to papal authority over and above the authority of God's word, both written by His own finger in the decalogue, and spoken by His own self from Mt Sinai to all the people... Including the many Egyptians and others who were with them. God did not then say, this is just for Jews.
Two more points. History declares that the Sabbath was kept by the Christian Church by non Jewish peoples in Italy, France, north Africa Great Britain and elsewhere, for many centuries after the time of the apostles. These people were subsequently persecuted as heretics by the Catholic Church, because they refused to submit to papal authority on the day of the sun god.
One could say that Sabbath keepers are actively avoiding idolatry by refusing to honor the Catholic day of the sun.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,825
2,457
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Yes, I agree that Paul was not saying that faith did not exist before Christ.

Now, consider this passage:

Gal. 3: 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

What is your understanding of that?

Paul was not saying that the Law did not operate by faith, but only that it was unable to produce the results of Saving Faith.

The Law, operating by faith, produced mixed results because there was an exact correlation between the level of obedience and the results in terms of blessings and curses. The smallest infraction would produce a curse, which is enough to disqualify one from eternal life.

Grace does not operate this way because it is a given that all of mankind have the Sin Nature, and are thereby disqualified from eternal life. Grace offers Christ's spiritual life, which is perfect, as a gift to us so that when we choose to live in it we bear the same corresponding results that Christ obtained, namely eternal life.

It was *Israel's observance of the Law* that proved, and was intended to prove, that their faith could not result in eternal life. The smallest sin betrayed them, and relegated them to failure.

And so, the Law operated with the understanding that Saving Faith was not possible under that system, since fallen man would always produce enough sin to disqualify him from eternal life. The Law was therefore "not of faith," ie not of Saving Faith, which produces eternal life.

Also,

Gal.3:25 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

What do you understand by that? What did Paul mean in saying “we are no longer under a tutor”? What has that got to do with the matter that faith has come?

Tong
R1633

Paul is using "faith" as a shortcut for the words "Saving Faith." He is speaking of the new Christian system that does not defeat hope in eternal life, the "faith" for eternal life--something that the Law frustrated. The Law gave men temporary hope in a temporary atonement, but it proved that all men disqualify for eternal life because of the exact correspondence between our Sin and the resulting curse. Saving Faith must therefore come *apart from* the Law, which consigns all men to death. Eternal life comes only apart from the Law, through the gift of Christ, through Grace.
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,825
2,457
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Excellent post, my friend. Just extraordinarily insightful. :)

I would add that, especially in Romans 7 & 8, Paul is trying to (among other things, no doubt) explain paradoxes. You know, the idea that two things that seem absolutely contradictory are, in fact, harmonious. I perceive that Paul had an extremely high IQ and that it takes a consecrated mind and heart to begin to plumb the depths of much of what he wrote. And, as simple as His teachings were, it was the same way (but different?) with Christ.

I gravitate more toward the words of Christ, because the more I consider His words, the more I come to know/understand Him. With Paul, not so much. Not that I disregard him, but I find I have to read him more lightly, because I have a tendency to be overly analytical, and the more I dig into his work, the more confused I become, even though I find him to be wonderfully burdened for souls and their growth in the knowledge of Christ.

I wonder if you would like to share what you think might be the most misunderstood passages of the Pauline epistles?

For me, it would definitely include Romans 7 & 8, Colossians 2, and 2 Corinthians 3. I guess that's fairly obvious by now. :)

What a nice personal post! I can really relate to how you approach Paul--I have had the same difficulties. I especially like how you point out the design of some intellectual arguments to resolve paradoxes. I really think that's how Paul approached some of these things!

I'll get to your assignment for me--I love them! But for now, I have to rest my tendinitis-infected wrist! ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: BarneyFife

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,610
6,451
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Do Gentiles have this Sabbath rest of the Jews? They don’t, right? We know that because the Gentiles are not under the Law, the Law of Moses which have the Ten Commandments and the laws concerning the Sabbath. If ever there was a day of rest for the Gentiles, it was not the same as the Sabbath of the Law of Moses.

Now, consider Paul, the Christian and apostle of Jesus Christ.

Paul at one time rebuked Peter saying “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?”. We have there Peter as living in the manner of Gentile Christians. That was no problem at all, right? Right. Now what would be it like to live as Gentiles? Would that not mean even without the matter of the Sabbath day? We also have there the compelling of the Gentiles to live as Jews. That was the problem. Now, what would be it like to live as Jews? Would that not mean to do the works of the law which includes those concerning the Sabbath, as do the Jews? According to Paul that should not be, for a man, Jew or Gentile, is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ.

Paul, in going about his ministry, to the Jews he became as a Jew, that he might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that he might win those who are under the law; those who are without law, as without law, that he might win those who are without law. We can see that there is no problem with Paul becoming as those who are without law, who are the Gentiles.

Then there was also the matter of circumcision, whether the Gentile Christians must be circumcised or not. If they must, that would mean that they are required to observe the law, which includes that of the Sabbath. If not, then it follows that they are not required to observe the law. And we know that they were not required to be circumcised.

Tong
R1627
You ignored the obvious so you could focus on the obscure. Jesus said the law will always be in effect. Always. He didn't come to do away with the law, but to fulfill. Fulfill doesn't mean cancel. Paul observed the Sabbath. The church observed the Sabbath. No mention of teaching of a change to the weekly Sabbath. Paul observed the feasts of the old Jewish economy such as passover, which had become obsolete, but the weekly Sabbath was never indelibly linked with the ritual and feast days of the sanctuary service which were shadows of the coming redemption in Christ. The weekly Sabbath was always a separate instrument.
 

BarneyFife

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2019
9,122
6,356
113
Central PA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Grace does not operate this way because it is a given that all of mankind have the Sin Nature, and are thereby disqualified from eternal life. Grace offers Christ's spiritual life, which is perfect, as a gift to us so that when we choose to live in it we bear the same corresponding results that Christ obtained, namely eternal life.
Just a note about grace: I was raised in the Southern Baptist faith and one thing that they get better than most denominations is the idea of something called common grace. It is different than saving grace and it is even extended to Lucifer/Satan himself. It is closely related to mercy, the primary characteristic that God attributes to Himself in Exodus 34:6 when Moses asked Him to show him His glory. The idea is that as soon as Lucifer had his first evil thought, he should have dropped dead instantly. But the mercy of God, afforded by Christ's sacrifice at Calvary was efficacious in extending a period of probation for all sinners, even the angelic type. As far I know, the exact time when Lucifer committed the unpardonable sin and became irredeemable is not known. But even now, his activity is allowed to run its course only by common grace.

Most people don't think this deeply into the sin problem. And it could be considered a mere theory, and therefore arguable. But it does seem sensible to me from what is recorded in the Bible about Lucifer and his fall.

The magnitude of the Calvary event affords endless study and edifying illumination to those who will look into it.

This is an interesting article I found about the power of Christ's sacrifice (it is denominational, but not very doctrinal) and how it extends even into eternity forward and keeps all of God's children--even the unfallen angels--from starting a 2nd rebellion (expressed in the last part of my signature):

What Was Secured by the Death of Christ :)
 

GerhardEbersoehn

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
6,308
575
113
Johannesburg
www.biblestudents.co.za
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Please explain what you meant by that.
I did, I wrote, 'under the Law. That's the only place He will be looking for you because He came to save sinners, not righteous. It's not what you become, it's what you are, for God, to bring you into Christ where you will be, saved.'
The Lord saves no one who is above the Law. "Don't think above what is written", is written - it's in there, read it for yourself.
One is always saved, once saved, or you're never saved.
 

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,610
6,451
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
I've had a life-long burden to know the source of Paul's doctrines--at least from young adulthood. Usually I know where somebody's beliefs come from, but Paul has eluded me more than nearly all others. I think God's heard my prayer because over the last few decades I've grown in understanding Paul. I won't say I have his number--I don't. I just have a much better appreciation for where his ideas came from, biblically, as opposed to what came to him directly from God.

One thing that has come to me in more recent times is the fact that Paul abbreviated things. That's why he's so hard to understand at times. He doesn't provide a glossary, so you just have to sort of read through his material, and much of the truth comes through as if by osmosis. ;)

A perfect example of this is his use of language in Romans, where all seems to be contradictory until one realizes that he is not making any attempt to resolve the lack of consistency in word use. He is expecting the reader understands how he uses words by their context, and then apply different definitions to the same words.

"Faith" is a word that is used in different contexts to mean different things. For Paul, it can mean Saving Faith or simply OT faith. As always, context rules in defining what words mean.
I think Paul also uses the word "law" differently, depending on context.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BarneyFife

GerhardEbersoehn

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
6,308
575
113
Johannesburg
www.biblestudents.co.za
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Yes, Jesus was born under the *era* of the Law. He was not, however, under the Law in the sense that God gave sinful Israel the Law to cover their sins with animal sacrifices. Jesus had no such need for animal sacrifices!
You're staring yourself blind against what Jesus <needed> or did not need, looking past what He gave and who He was. So you miss the Gospel, because He needed NOT to do anything for ungrateful sinner; He could destroy him simply, but no, He NEEDED for His Love's sake, to GO UNDER THE LAW WHERE man found himself, TO SAVE SINNER! Christ's only 'need' was his own; so what He needed, He NEEDED TO GIVE TO SAVE. And that is the explanation for the Law of God-- God needed to persuade man he needed GOD!

The Law to convince sinner of his need of God's atonement He provided for him, is the Law contained in the single Great Law and it as contained in the Ten Commandments-- all other Law in the Scriptures are given and meant as explanation of the Great Law of all, the one Law no man is able to fulfil although he may be able to fulfil all the other, accessory even if they are essential laws of Scripture. However, even were man able to 'keep the Great Law', is he not saved by his keeping of it or the other laws, ever -- not in the Christian 'era' or in the 'era' before it.
 
Last edited:

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,825
2,457
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I wonder if you would like to share what you think might be the most misunderstood passages of the Pauline epistles?

For me, it would definitely include Romans 7 & 8, Colossians 2, and 2 Corinthians 3. I guess that's fairly obvious by now. :)

I don't know how clear this will come across. I haven't spent the time to polish it--yet I wanted to give you a more immediate response. It deserves it. Very good questions, very good Scriptures to ask about, and something I've wrestled with for years.

Romans 7. Paul speaks of the cessation of the system of the Law, which is superseded by the new system of Christ. We get confused because it seems Christ did not just come out and declare the old system was dead and the new system would be in the resurrection. But in fact he did say that the temple system would be obliterated, and that he is the Way, and the true temple of God.

Paul basically argued that Israel had been separated from God due to the failure of one party, Israel, to fulfill the terms of the marital agreement, and due to the other party, Christ, dying. Both elements caused the covenant of Law to fail for Israel.

Embracing Christ as our advocate for the court sentencing, we died with him when he died for sins that we actually committed. His death for those sins showed that we deserved to die with him for those very sins. And spiritually entering into him, by faith, we actually do die with him. The power over of sin over our lives has been broken, I believe.

Having died, the condemnation of the Law, which certified that we were ineligible for eternal life, was removed. And we would stay condemned had we not been joined to Christ, our advocate, who after his death was raised from the dead. Again, being spiritually united with him, we actually benefit from his righteousness. We actually display it. Hence, we were raised up with him, no longer condemned by the Law, but judged as though judged the way Christ is, as sinless and eligible for eternal life.

In the latter part of Rom 7, Paul is arguing about his experience with the Law even after that system had been superseded by Christian Grace. He had not yet experienced Christian Grace, and still lived under a system that was designed to show the incapacity of the independent flesh to obtain eternal life. Until Paul came to Christ, he remained under condemnation, particularly as he lived apart from Christ.

This was not saying that the Law was still an active system, nor was it saying that when the Law had been active that Israel necessarily lived ungodly lives. Paul is only saying that at that time in the history of Israel, when Israel had generally lost its spirituality, only proved what the Law had stated, that man, going his own way, was condemned to death. The smallest sin could condemn to death. And despicable sin by an entire nation accomplished the same.

Rom 8. Paul goes on to speak of what true spirituality under the Law was meant to produce after Christ had made a final atonement for sin. The record of failure could be erased by joining onto Christ, and thus obtaining his record of sinlessness.

The Law was never meant to show that Israel could only live under that system in the corrupt ways of flesh. Rather, it was designed to show that whether living in righteousness or in sin, apart from Christ nothing was good enough to achieve eternal life apart from Christ. The record of man apart from Christian Grace would always show sin, which in turn renders man ineligible for eternal life.

Again, Paul was arguing as a Jew who had initially rejected Christian Grace. He therefore found himself under indictment by the very Law that had been intended by God to show man's ineligibility for eternal life apart from Christ.

Col 2. Today I realize that the self-disciplinary exercises Paul relegated to vanity was not just Judaism, but Gnosticism as well. It referred to contemporary practices of self-denial that did not achieve eternal life, any more than the Law, as spiritual as it was, could not obtain eternal life when that system was in effect.

2 Cor 3. The Law was veiled in the sense that it was a system that portrayed the inability of man, apart from Christ's atonement, to obtain eternal life. Christ was veiled, when that system was in place, because he had not yet come, and not because Israel was necessarily unspiritual. It was not because Israel was disallowed from seeing him when he came.

God simply kept Christ from being clearly seen under the system of Law until it was time to bring testimony to final atonement through Christ. Until Christ actually came, God wanted Israel to testify to the Law, and thus to the inability of man to obtain eternal life by his own independent works. It was a testimony to our need to live by faith in God's grace and forgiveness.

Paul applied this temporary lack of insight under the Law to his own time, when the Jews had become particularly blind, due to backsliding and degeneracy. They could not see Christ even after he had come because they were still binding themselves to independent living, which was the very thing the Law was given to testify against!
 
  • Like
Reactions: BarneyFife

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,610
6,451
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Just a note about grace: I was raised in the Southern Baptist faith and one thing that they get better than most denominations is the idea of something called common grace. It is different than saving grace and it is even extended to Lucifer/Satan himself. It is closely related to mercy, the primary characteristic that God attributes to Himself in Exodus 34:6 when Moses asked Him to show him His glory. The idea is that as soon as Lucifer had his first evil thought, he should have dropped dead instantly. But the mercy of God, afforded by Christ's sacrifice at Calvary was efficacious in extending a period of probation for all sinners, even the angelic type. As far I know, the exact time when Lucifer committed the unpardonable sin and became irredeemable is not known. But even now, his activity is allowed to run its course only by common grace.

Most people don't think this deeply into the sin problem. And it could be considered a mere theory, and therefore arguable. But it does seem sensible to me from what is recorded in the Bible about Lucifer and his fall.

The magnitude of the Calvary event affords endless study and edifying illumination to those who will look into it.

This is an interesting article I found about the power of Christ's sacrifice (it is denominational, but not very doctrinal) and how it extends even into eternity forward and keeps all of God's children--even the unfallen angels--from starting a 2nd rebellion (expressed in the last part of my signature):

What Was Secured by the Death of Christ :)
Isn't it such a blessing to read an essay which upholds Christ and loses self.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BarneyFife

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,825
2,457
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Just a note about grace: I was raised in the Southern Baptist faith and one thing that they get better than most denominations is the idea of something called common grace. It is different than saving grace and it is even extended to Lucifer/Satan himself. It is closely related to mercy, the primary characteristic that God attributes to Himself in Exodus 34:6 when Moses asked Him to show him His glory. The idea is that as soon as Lucifer had his first evil thought, he should have dropped dead instantly. But the mercy of God, afforded by Christ's sacrifice at Calvary was efficacious in extending a period of probation for all sinners, even the angelic type. As far I know, the exact time when Lucifer committed the unpardonable sin and became irredeemable is not known. But even now, his activity is allowed to run its course only by common grace.

Most people don't think this deeply into the sin problem. And it could be considered a mere theory, and therefore arguable. But it does seem sensible to me from what is recorded in the Bible about Lucifer and his fall.

The magnitude of the Calvary event affords endless study and edifying illumination to those who will look into it.

This is an interesting article I found about the power of Christ's sacrifice (it is denominational, but not very doctrinal) and how it extends even into eternity forward and keeps all of God's children--even the unfallen angels--from starting a 2nd rebellion (expressed in the last part of my signature):

What Was Secured by the Death of Christ :)

You are surprising me by your personal knowledge of these kinds of issues. Generally, people on these forums are educated, and know a lot. But the deeper we go into Christian spirituality, the less we find those who have persevered into these deeper matters. I'm not speaking of any kind of elitism or pride, but only dealing with the fact that many people give up at the early signs of trouble living the spiritual life.

I remember that back in Bible School we asked the question about whether after our Eternal Redemption we could go through another Fall, such as the angels did! I would have to say no, because Eternal Life has now been proclaimed by the word of God to be eternal life. Human Choice has its limitations, thank God! ;)

Responding to your sense of Grace towards Lucifer, I may have some yes and no thoughts about it. I don't think God tolerates Satan because He owes it to him in terms of His love, nor because of feeling sorry for him and wanting to keep on extending His patience to him.

But yes, I do think it shows that God always remains loving, even amidst his enemies, and does show at least enough patience to allow a process of justice to take place, to visibly show Satan where he went wrong and why he deserves judgment.

It would be the same as in our court systems, a person has a right to confront his accuser before being condemned and sentenced. In this case, Satan is given due process to see the outworking of his own actions in the course of human events on earth. Satan's involvement has been apparent every step of the way, and will come to an end in the same way AntiChristianity will come to an end at Christ's Return.

Why does God allow evil, all philosophy students are asked? The problem of Evil, it is called. Simply put, it is because God allows the evil action in order to judge the evil person.

The evil person must be shown for who he is. After rejecting God as Lord, and after deciding to go his own independent way, God turns him over to his own devices. And what results are the evil acts that are then judged over the due course of time.

God is patient, allowing this process to be played out in time, not necessarily to be kind to evildoers, but more, to display His justice universally. Everyone deserves to see the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Obscurity is bad. Murky justice is bad. History reveals the truth for those willing to wait, and for those with eyes to see. This is the real purpose for God's patience, I believe. It is for God Himself, and for those interested in seeing who He is.
 
Last edited:

Brakelite

Well-Known Member
Feb 6, 2020
8,610
6,451
113
Melbourne
brakelite.wordpress.com
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Grace offers Christ's spiritual life, which is perfect, as a gift to us so that when we choose to live in it we bear the same corresponding results that Christ obtained, namely eternal life.
Could I suggest that the gift of grace... Christ's righteousness... Not only grants us eternal life, but also a life well lived now. A life that reflects the light of the Lightgiver. A life of experiential real time righteousness that is empowered to overcome sin, and even has the healing power that frees us from the real time consequences of sin... Addictions and evil habits of character which if not overcome will count against us in the judgement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BarneyFife

GerhardEbersoehn

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
6,308
575
113
Johannesburg
www.biblestudents.co.za
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Galatians 3
23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Before Christ came into our life, we were under the Law, "If thou shalt do sin, thou shalt DIE"-- God's LAW: "Death is the reward of sin". Under which Law we are incarcerated in the Prison of Sin where we MUST serve sentence until Christ might come and redeem us. Wherefore our Redeemer sent us Message with His Law to teach us and instruct us on his visit, that we might be justified when He comes. Now after that Christ is come, we are no longer under schoolmaster Messenger Law, but under Lawgiver Master Jesus Himself, to teach us, under Whom we for the rest of our lives shall receive instruction and upbringing in the Faith of HIM.
 
Last edited:

GerhardEbersoehn

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2014
6,308
575
113
Johannesburg
www.biblestudents.co.za
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Could I suggest that the gift of grace... Christ's righteousness... Not only grants us eternal life, but also a life well lived now. A life that reflects the light of the Lightgiver. A life of experiential real time righteousness that is empowered to overcome sin, and even has the healing power that frees us from the real time consequences of sin... Addictions and evil habits of character which if not overcome will count against us in the judgement.
God be praised for such a post as yours!
 
  • Like
Reactions: BarneyFife