Coming Antichrist Is Not Of Islam

[veteran]

Actually, Veteran, there is nothing specific in Scripture that says that the Jews have to
accept the AntiChrist as their God. It is more necessary that a peace be accepted by the
Jews and Palestinians that will allow a rebuilding of the temple, and allow the sacrifices
to begin again, which is an apostasy in itself becaue Yeshua has already come to be the
final, and only fully redeeming Sacrifice that is needed. I cannot think why any thinking
Christian wants the temple rebuilt, when it is an insult to Yeshua, but I do understand the
Jews wanting one.

However, the AntiChrist will deceive darn near everyone, and by deceit he can finagle
agreement to the original peace through, I think, the UN. Once the AntiChrist shows his
true colors, the Messianic Jews might make some headway in converting the
Orthodox Jews, as well as the culturally bound agnostics in Israel. Again, it is more
important that a peace be declared, presumably after the Ezekial 38 war, when everyone
will really want a respite from war. There is a real need for a temple to be built,
somewhere in Israel, so that the AntiChrist can profane it.

As for the Islamics not believing the AntiChrist is their Mahdi, I am positive that the
Adversary is more than capable of getting them to cooperate...since most of them are
inadvertantly following the AntiChrist now. Just pursuit of Sharia Law, and a supposed
future worldwide Caliphate, however spurious, could get them radically involved, not to
mention that the enemy of their enemy is their friend. The opportunity for them to kill
Christians, Messianics, and Jews as time progresses could easily get them onboard.
And of course, all those miracles will persuade them a little later on.

In addition, as long as the Adversary's name is in Arabic, or Farsi, I'm positive they
would be ready to take that kind of a mark, particularly when Allah's name can be thought
by some as a corruption of Eloah, the singular for Elohim.

The AntiChrist need only convince a few mullahs, provide a suitable Mahdi, and all will be
well. Also, if the Mahdi gets to be the False Prophet, and does all the wonderworking signs,
the Muslims would be delighted.

Another point that could be considered is that there is a 3rd city built on 7 hills...Istanbuhl,
and conveniently, a Greek Orthodox Christian, or a Turkish/Russian Jew
in Turkey or Syria, or from the countries just north of them, could wind up being the
charming peacemaker that brings the world together.

Istanbuhl is also a greater port of entry to the Middle East than most people will
consider, and has long since 'lived deliciously'. Istanbuhl is also known as Constantinopolis,
and was the eastern seat of the Roman Emperors. The Ottoman empire ran out of there for
hundreds of years, and could easily do so again. There is no real reason for the Islamic
Caliphate not to rise again, at least, temporarily...I just don't see any Muslim being peaceful
and charming enough to be the AntiChrist as well, particularly after the Ezekial 38 war (the one
that's shaping up now so very nicely around Israel), because the neighbors surrounding Israel
(minus Jordan) are going to be cut by about 85% in that war.

But the Ezekial 38 war that's so beautifully pending right now will also nearly wipe out 85%
of the Palistinians as well, and that Mosque on Temple Mount just might not survive the
war, so that the temple could be built as part of a peace deal, particularly since that war is
YHVH's announcement to the world that He's baaack, and the Jews are going to be very
triumphant.

Oddly, I never hear anyone discuss that the AntiChrist might come out of China or
Russia, or the southern eastern nations, yet there are many a falsely professing
Christian/Messianic, Jew, and agnostic/athiest that could have the winning personality as
well as no inconvenient beliefs holding him back. After all, the AntiChrist consolidates
his reign over much of the earth in the first 3 1/2 years of the last heptad remaining in
Daniel's prophecy, and it might take him a few additional years to get into place to be in
power to settle the peace.

On the other hand, the AntiChrist can come from anywhere, and be of any religion, or none,
since he doesn't need to mean a word he says to anyone. I would be looking at an American
President if there were one clever enough, but perhaps with inspiration from the Adversary the
current one could be made to rise to the occasion. He lies beautifully already, and is well
liked by far too many people, and although born a Muslim, he claims to be a Christian of some
sort now.

Still, until the Muslim nations get together enough to attack Israel properly to allow for some
depopulation in the Middle East for the remaining 6 million Jews to move to Israel, I don't see
anything but more pieces of the puzzle being pushed into to place as YHVH allows.
All of the above would blend very nicely with a financial crash before 2016, when there will be
another ex-president hanging around making trouble, but I may be stretching things a bit.
On the other hand, I can see that ex-president as Secretary General of the UN.

There is also a rapidly expanding energy problem that will bring many nations to 'seek a
prey' in Israel, now that they have found so much oil and natural gas in their tiny bit of
land. If Peak Cheap Oil is as over as it is thought to be, everybody is going to want a
possible claim to all that black gold. All those people in the east are very oil
hungry, and we do need a 200 milliion army to fight for some eastern king. I'm sure
China would oblige, or India, or all the smaller Asian countries could join together.

As for the beast's ten horns, I am of the opinion that they are likely to be attached to the
CFR's/UN's ten region world system...most likely as 10 new Central Banks that come
about in the next few years when the worldwide Financial System is allowed to crash, and
the world gets reorganized into those ten financial regions. (The treaty between Canada,
America and Mexico known as NAFTA - United North America, is region number one).

After all, Kings and Presidents don't lend support quite so easily to up and coming
political stars, but Banksters always do. I also don't see too much difficulty for Eastern
Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East making common cause under their Central
Banks from their then-to-be war torn area, which would conveniently be the three horns
that are conquered by the rising AntiChrist.

Again, this will only happen if he manages to make a peace with Israel and the surrounding
countries for long enough for the miracle working side show to begin to abound in his
supporters. We are not looking in my scenario for political support, but commercial support
for the AntiChrist, although I daresay the UN will be keeping the peace in a open Jerusalem
with powder blue helmeted forces.

For those wondering what my beliefs are, being a newbie, I am a Messianic Gentile, not having
been brought up in any church, temple or synagogue; working sola scriptura for the last 42 years
with the Ruach haKodesh, and several Christian friends of varying denominations; I use the KJV for
beauty and accuracy, not trusting newer translations, and am quite used to working around the
mistakes in that text. I use the Hebrew Names out of the respect for the Personages they describe,
but also use Christ, Jesus, and the Lord readily. I am a pre-wrath resurrectionalist fully
expecting a very uncomfortable if not deadly tribulation period, but expect the Last
Trump to sound just before the vials get poured out. If I get that far, I don't want to be
there to watch.

The word rapture to me is way too misleading, bringing to mind Left Behind books, not
to mention that the dead rise before any living Believers do, which is not your average
catching away. Resurrectionalist, although a bit long for those unaccustomed to it, is accurate.

On the other hand, just to add spice to the discussion from another thread, I do think that
the spirits of the elect are in a seperate holding area as shown in Reveltion when the
dead from the Tribulation are under the glass sea in front of the Throne of YHVH. I also
believe that Yeshua preached to all the spirits in the place called Paradise which is not in
heaven, is also outside of time, but is not where the wicked are. We do need to allow
some Judaic background to influence our thinking since our God is Jewish.

I also think that the wicked dead, including all the pre-Noahide people, demons and all,
received a triumphant visit from Yeshua letting them know that He had succeeded, which
being God, He would. The place called hell/sheol/gehenna is probably merely a seperate
dimension, presuming that Yeshua was outside of time while he was no longer in a human
body, but not as yet ascended to Heaven.

I also believe that Yeshua preached to both Jew and Gentile in the non-wicked portion of
hell/sheol/gehenna, and added greatly to the myriads that we see in Revelation. He could
also have preached to all the dead, from Adam to now, and even forward. He
is God, after all.

Just my 2 cents.

Q

My Bible shows the unbelieving deceived Jews in Jerusalem WILL accept the coming Antichrist as their Messiah.

Even MANY Christian believers are going to be deceived into believing that false one coming to Jerusalem will be Christ Jesus having returned.

In Matthew 24:24 Christ specifically mentioned the idea of a Pseudo Christ (pseudochristos - "false Christs"). He warned how the great signs and wonders that false christ is to work would almost deceive even His Own elect if it were possible.

Jews here on this forum may not want to believe their unbelieving brethren are going to bow to that coming false christ, but that is especially who their religious leaders are preparing them for!

 

[Questor]

To the best of my knowledge it says, or means; " There is no god but Allah " this information is in my signature as well... signature being the bottom most script on my post.

That would fit the Muslims mispronouncing of Eloah to Allah...since it is the singular for 'god', and they fail to see the multiplicities or manifiestations of YHVH in the Book they say they respect.

They do have some close up pictures, but to get one encomapassing the entire ring would be the difficult part i speak of.

If he is wearing a ring that says that, then I see no reason for him not being a future world leader. As for his being the AntiChrist, rather than an antichrist, well that remains to be seen, although looking at his cosseted march to the top of America, and how the media lavishes attention on him, well, I can readily see it.

As to his being cleverer than he seems, he doesn't need to be, only willing to be the beloved peacemaker, to play the role that gets him the celebrity-type worship he seems to be in office for...then the Adversary enters in, and well, that's another whole type of knowledge for us to deal with. That should be a noticable change, as well, since except for speechifying, he is rather wobbly on intent, and seems blown about by circumstances.

My Bible shows the unbelieving deceived Jews in Jerusalem WILL accept the coming Antichrist as their Messiah.

Even MANY Christian believers are going to be deceived into believing that false one coming to Jerusalem will be Christ Jesus having returned.

Oh, I agree completely. 'nearly the whole darn world' is what I said. I meant that there is no need for the Orthodox, Conservative, and Liberal Jews to accept the AntiChrist as the pretender endtime Messiah (which is only Yeshua in His return).

One thing I hope for, for the Jews sake, is that they are Jewish, and have cultural constraints against bowing to images, or getting tatooed. Of course the young ones, seeking and searching for meaning in existance, well, they could fall prey to the wondermaker. By the wondermaker, I speak of the AntiChrist's prophet, who I do think will be a Jew. It seems to fit with prophecy better to have
a Jew repeating John the Baptist's role of announcer to the AntiChrist.

In Matthew 24:24 Christ specifically mentioned the idea of a Pseudo Christ (pseudochristos - "false Christs"). He warned how the great signs and wonders that false christ is to work would almost deceive even His Own elect if it were possible.

Jews here on this forum may not want to believe their unbelieving brethren are going to bow to that coming false christ, but that is especially who their religious leaders are preparing them for!

Jews everywhere seemed to be being prepared by the Evangelicals and other rapturist's (Pre-trib- Pre-wrath) for an AntiChrist to come soon. (To me there is only a resurrection and translation of the living Elect.) The way Israel is being hammered by those Jews who want a Temple built ASAP so they can do their covenant's sacrifice's, one wonders how they can stand it, when added to all the Christians's telling them how to believe. Begging them to believe would be far more to the point.

That they should believe in Yeshua...well, they are blinded by YHVH from seeing Him.

I am grateful for the growing numbers of the Messianic Jews, since they can do a better job of telling fellow Jews that being a Believer is not against their heritage, but already a part of it.

One of my questions is the about the number of the Messianic Jews doing the converting during the Tribulation. I tend to think that 144,000 is a symbolic number of all Believers being sealed by the Ruach haKodesh, since that number can include any stray offspring of the Lost Ten Tribes, and other forcibly converted Jews.

However, the Bible does say that that number is being sealed at the time just prior to the four winds being released, so I am doubtful of current Believer's being sealed against harm, as the prophecy implies. One would like to be fully protected against harm during those eventful years,


By the way, what is your feeling as to how close we are to the last seven years?


Q

 

[Hezekiah]

Wouldn't these scriptures prevent him from being a man?

Rev_17:8


The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev_17:11


And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

What mere man was before John's vision but was not on the scene at the time of John's vision but will reappear in the latter days?

Dan_8:11


Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

The prince of the host is Christ himself.

Dan 8:10

And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

The host of heaven? The angels? The stars? The angels?

 

[tgwprophet]

Wouldn't these scriptures prevent him from being a man?

Until he is cast down... most likely, yes.


when I said cast down, if it helps - I mean " cast out of Heaven and limited to earth. "

And i wish to leave it possible that when he... Satan.. emerges from the inner-sanctum that he will be in edified form and that could mean an eternal body, possibly.


By the way, what is your feeling as to how close we are to the last seven years?
The begining is within my physical lifetime, but not the ending.

 

[veteran]

1). I have seen two different claims about this both with sometomes much validity, thou I have not seen any that debubnked the other without opinion as a main reason. This is why I did not include it in the calendar I developed.

The events about the ending of the sacrifice and placing of the abomination that makes desolate are key to endtime events. Christ covered it in His Olivet Discourse which directly links to the Revelation endtime events. So for me, there's no debating this because of the obvious Scripture links. Dump the Daniel part, and one must dump its place within Christ's Olive Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, and then also much of His Revelation. Just who... would want to do that kind of Scripture dumping? Those who work against Christ and His Church. Some here are listening to those false prophets who do that.

2) The two dead bodies certainl;y are people. But, after Armageddon they are two... more candlesticks and after the 1000 year persiod could be placed along with the 7..meaning they became Christian churches grafted unto the vine. This is just a thought.

You're definitely confused about all that. The two witnesses event is only for the timing of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. It has nothing to do with Christ's future thousand years reign.

3) The rapture idea of which I agree... for reasons I have already shown... is not debunked becasue it was "opened" by someone else. The words explaining a " rapture " were there long before the word rapture was associated with the event.

The word 'rapture' originated from the Latin, not from Greek. The NT Greek uses the Greek word 'harpazo' ("caught up"). But the Rapture false prophets would rather use that Latin origin 'rapture', most likely because it keeps the Christian Bible student away... from discovering the other lessons in God's Word where Greek 'harpazo' occurs, like in 2 Cor.12.

4) I had considered that if the Beast was described as being a Chinese leader yet the person was of Roman heritage whoe family had lived in China for centuries.. the prophet could have described him as Roman because of his appearence or Chinese becasue he nor his partents nor their parents ever lived elsewhere. This would sure be a good way for Satan to hide the Beast identity.

God made the coming Antichrist the full pattern of beauty, before he rebelled against Him.

5) We are not discussing agreement accross the world, nor accross religious boundaries... but rather, agreements in Christians seeking the wisodm of God.

I know, I speak of those 'within' Christ's Church on earth especially. Many brethren are going to be deceived by the coming false messiah, thinking he's our Lord Jesus having come. That was Paul's main subject of 2 Thess.2 addressed to the brethren.

6) Actually I think Israel was describedas Sodom and Egypt - where the two witnesses are killed... not Babylon

Rev.11:8 shows it is Jerusalem specifically.

7) There is no reason Satan eeds to emulate God's mark, however there is a reason for a physical mark.. yet the prophecy aslo includes one knowing his name... meaning no physical mark and one claiiming a sore for having a physical mark.

There's EVERY reason for Satan to mimic God's marking of His, for it involves the main event for the end of this world. What event do you think is the main event by Satan for this world at the end?

That would fit the Muslims mispronouncing of Eloah to Allah...since it is the singular for 'god', and they fail to see the multiplicities or manifiestations of YHVH in the Book they say they respect.

If he is wearing a ring that says that, then I see no reason for him not being a future world leader. As for his being the AntiChrist, rather than an antichrist, well that remains to be seen, although looking at his cosseted march to the top of America, and how the media lavishes attention on him, well, I can readily see it.

As to his being cleverer than he seems, he doesn't need to be, only willing to be the beloved peacemaker, to play the role that gets him the celebrity-type worship he seems to be in office for...then the Adversary enters in, and well, that's another whole type of knowledge for us to deal with. That should be a noticable change, as well, since except for speechifying, he is rather wobbly on intent, and seems blown about by circumstances.


Oh, I agree completely. 'nearly the whole darn world' is what I said. I meant that there is no need for the Orthodox, Conservative, and Liberal Jews to accept the AntiChrist as the pretender endtime Messiah (which is only Yeshua in His return).

One thing I hope for, for the Jews sake, is that they are Jewish, and have cultural constraints against bowing to images, or getting tatooed. Of course the young ones, seeking and searching for meaning in existance, well, they could fall prey to the wondermaker. By the wondermaker, I speak of the AntiChrist's prophet, who I do think will be a Jew. It seems to fit with prophecy better to have
a Jew repeating John the Baptist's role of announcer to the AntiChrist.
Jews everywhere seemed to be being prepared by the Evangelicals and other rapturist's (Pre-trib- Pre-wrath) for an AntiChrist to come soon. (To me there is only a resurrection and translation of the living Elect.) The way Israel is being hammered by those Jews who want a Temple built ASAP so they can do their covenant's sacrifice's, one wonders how they can stand it, when added to all the Christians's telling them how to believe. Begging them to believe would be far more to the point.

That they should believe in Yeshua...well, they are blinded by YHVH from seeing Him.

I am grateful for the growing numbers of the Messianic Jews, since they can do a better job of telling fellow Jews that being a Believer is not against their heritage, but already a part of it.

One of my questions is the about the number of the Messianic Jews doing the converting during the Tribulation. I tend to think that 144,000 is a symbolic number of all Believers being sealed by the Ruach haKodesh, since that number can include any stray offspring of the Lost Ten Tribes, and other forcibly converted Jews.

However, the Bible does say that that number is being sealed at the time just prior to the four winds being released, so I am doubtful of current Believer's being sealed against harm, as the prophecy implies. One would like to be fully protected against harm during those eventful years,


By the way, what is your feeling as to how close we are to the last seven years?


Q

Look at Ezekiel 9 about God's mark for that sealing. It's represented there by the Hebrew letter that in ancient form was a cross.

How close are we to the last seven years? We're still in the 5th Trumpet events. Some are still being sealed with God's sealing today, especially in nations outside the Christian west. When the 6th Trumpet starts, that's the tribulation time. We're that close.

 

[tgwprophet]

I simply mean he only needs mark those of " his " and the type of mark is only in conjunction with what man could get rid of or copy for a fake workable mark allowing them o buy and sell. As far as a counterfiet mark of God.... no way there are inherient problems if that was available... people marked of Satan killing others marked of Satan etc....

 

[veteran]

I simply mean he only needs mark those of " his " and the type of mark is only in conjunction with what man could get rid of or copy for a fake workable mark allowing them o buy and sell. As far as a counterfiet mark of God.... no way there are inherient problems if that was available... people marked of Satan killing others marked of Satan etc....

The contrast to God's mark is the mark of Cain.

The requirement for buying and selling per the end of Rev.13 is not the same thing.

 

[tgwprophet]

Veteran wrote: " The contrast to God's mark is the mark of Cain.

The requirement for buying and selling per the end of Rev.13 is not the same thing. "

Many years ago i encountered a few churches that believed the mark of Cain was black skin... Although I never believed that - I never learned of another description. I still do not believe that.

Your second thought... i see no qualifier to prove the Beast's Mark is not also a physical mark, indeed, I do see that it is.

6) Actually I think Israel was describedas Sodom and Egypt - where the two witnesses are killed... not Babylon
you wrote: " Rev.11:8 shows it is Jerusalem specifically. " - Notice Jerusalem is a city... Babylon is also a city - not a country

I gave 7 terms in an attempt to find common ground. Agreement is a good foundation with which to build - dis-agreements and un-common ground will achieve what? - no discovery and no resolve. If we as Christains cannot seek out truth and build from agreement how can we as Christians progress forward? These 7 principles were written in a format to allow the understanding most have that we can debate them and narrow them in our quest for truth, yet none or few can even agree on these things... hmmmmmmmmmmmm... will we remain grid-locked?

Veteran wrote: " You're definitely confused about all that. The two witnesses event is only for the timing of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. It has nothing to do with Christ's future thousand years reign. "

Confused? Have you not read where these two will stand through the 1000 years? Certainly I am NOT confised here!

GOOD VET, one minute we are are standing in agreement, the next we argure toof an knail - shows we are both trying.

Now, if only we can find more agreements than arguements and allow Jesus to guide us instead of our prejudices.

 

[veteran]

Veteran wrote: " The contrast to God's mark is the mark of Cain.

The requirement for buying and selling per the end of Rev.13 is not the same thing. "

Many years ago i encountered a few churches that believed the mark of Cain was black skin... Although I never believed that - I never learned of another description. I still do not believe that.

God created the root races of mankind on His 6th day, along with the specific man Adam He formed in His Garden. Some have believed that the Black peoples were the result of Ham's sin too, but that is also false.

Your second thought... i see no qualifier to prove the Beast's Mark is not also a physical mark, indeed, I do see that it is.

There's no actual "mark of the beast" phrase there in Rev.13. Because it mentions a 'mark' required for buying and selling, that does suggest a literal physical mark. But it's not the same idea as the spiritual marking in contrast to God's seal. The Biblical pattern for that is with Daniel's time and the command to bow in false worship to the idol image. It shows only those who submit to false worship of the beast will be given the mark for buying and selling.

6) Actually I think Israel was describedas Sodom and Egypt - where the two witnesses are killed... not Babylon
you wrote: " Rev.11:8 shows it is Jerusalem specifically. " - Notice Jerusalem is a city... Babylon is also a city - not a country

Isa 1:8-10
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
(KJV)

Jer 23:14
14 I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
(KJV)

It's clear that God was pointing to Jerusalem and Judah with that.


And it's very clear that Rev.11:8 is speaking of the city of JERUSALEM...

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(KJV)


Where was Christ Jesus crucified??? JERUSALEM.

The previous phrase "the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt" is about Jerusalem also, for it is in the SPIRITUAL sense concerning false worship.

I gave 7 terms in an attempt to find common ground. Agreement is a good foundation with which to build - dis-agreements and un-common ground will achieve what? - no discovery and no resolve. If we as Christains cannot seek out truth and build from agreement how can we as Christians progress forward? These 7 principles were written in a format to allow the understanding most have that we can debate them and narrow them in our quest for truth, yet none or few can even agree on these things... hmmmmmmmmmmmm... will we remain grid-locked?

Veteran wrote: " You're definitely confused about all that. The two witnesses event is only for the timing of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. It has nothing to do with Christ's future thousand years reign. "

Confused? Have you not read where these two will stand through the 1000 years? Certainly I am NOT confised here!

GOOD VET, one minute we are are standing in agreement, the next we argure toof an knail - shows we are both trying.

Now, if only we can find more agreements than arguements and allow Jesus to guide us instead of our prejudices.

Yes, you are confused about that. The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe ends... the tribulation time. With the 7th Trumpet final Woe we're shown Christ reigning and the time of His wrath upon the wicked. Yet God's two witnesses work within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, and are killed 3.5 days prior to the 7th Trumpet.

 

[Rex]

God created the root races of mankind on His 6th day, along with the specific man Adam He formed in His Garden. Some have believed that the Black peoples were the result of Ham's sin too, but that is also false.

Confusion seems to be the right word

 

[tgwprophet]

Veteran wrote: " Yes, you are confused about that. The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe ends... the tribulation time. With the 7th Trumpet final Woe we're shown Christ reigning and the time of His wrath upon the wicked. Yet God's two witnesses work within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, and are killed 3.5 days prior to the 7th Trumpet. "

I see you have the Two Witnesses being killed right before Armageddon, I do not believe that. I do place them at the throne of Jesus when he reigns for 1000 years... then... I cconsider that they are grafted unto the 7 candlesticks after this 1000 year reiggn andd they will probably have become 2 churches over the course of the 1000 years. I understand the Two Witnesses are slain right after the Abomination of Desolation..meaning right after mid-point of Tribulation and probably just preceeding the rapture.

In reference to the position of the Two Witnesses....
Zech 4:14
Then said he, These are the two annointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth. Me - Confused? Hardly.

As far as the reigning at the 7th trump, I do not consider that as commencing on earth but rather in Heaven as there are still Tribulation events preceeding Armageddon yet to come. This would make my claim thus; Grace has stopped for Satan and his crue and so, him and his crue get kicked out of Heaven at this time. But this is asking me to explain that which I have only given little consideraton... more time is needed in this matter.

I wrote: " 6) Actually I think Israel was described as Sodom and Egypt - where the two witnesses are killed... not Babylon
you wrote: " Rev.11:8 shows it is Jerusalem specifically. " - Notice Jerusalem is a city... Babylon is also a city - not a country
You have not convinced me that Jerusalem is to be considered Babylon.

 

[veteran]

Veteran wrote: " Yes, you are confused about that. The 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe ends... the tribulation time. With the 7th Trumpet final Woe we're shown Christ reigning and the time of His wrath upon the wicked. Yet God's two witnesses work within the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe timing, and are killed 3.5 days prior to the 7th Trumpet. "

I see you have the Two Witnesses being killed right before Armageddon, I do not believe that. I do place them at the throne of Jesus when he reigns for 1000 years... then... I cconsider that they are grafted unto the 7 candlesticks after this 1000 year reiggn andd they will probably have become 2 churches over the course of the 1000 years. I understand the Two Witnesses are slain right after the Abomination of Desolation..meaning right after mid-point of Tribulation and probably just preceeding the rapture.

I wasn't talking about Armageddon, I was talking about the difference in Rev.11 between the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period. The distinction of those two different Woe periods is what rightly divides the time of God's two witnesses for the tribulation time, and not for the later Milennium time as you say.

 

[Questor]

The events about the ending of the sacrifice and placing of the abomination that makes desolate are key to endtime events. Christ covered it in His Olivet Discourse which directly links to the Revelation endtime events. So for me, there's no debating this because of the obvious Scripture links. Dump the Daniel part, and one must dump its place within Christ's Olive Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, and then also much of His Revelation. Just who... would want to do that kind of Scripture dumping? Those who work against Christ and His Church. Some here are listening to those false prophets who do that.

You're definitely confused about all that. The two witnesses event is only for the timing of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. It has nothing to do with Christ's future thousand years reign.
The word 'rapture' originated from the Latin, not from Greek. The NT Greek uses the Greek word 'harpazo' ("caught up"). But the Rapture false prophets would rather use that Latin origin 'rapture', most likely because it keeps the Christian Bible student away... from discovering the other lessons in God's Word where Greek 'harpazo' occurs, like in 2 Cor.12.
God made the coming Antichrist the full pattern of beauty, before he rebelled against Him.
I know, I speak of those 'within' Christ's Church on earth especially. Many brethren are going to be deceived by the coming false messiah, thinking he's our Lord Jesus having come. That was Paul's main subject of 2 Thess.2 addressed to the brethren.
Rev.11:8 shows it is Jerusalem specifically.
There's EVERY reason for Satan to mimic God's marking of His, for it involves the main event for the end of this world. What event do you think is the main event by Satan for this world at the end?



Look at Ezekiel 9 about God's mark for that sealing. It's represented there by the Hebrew letter that in ancient form was a cross.

How close are we to the last seven years? We're still in the 5th Trumpet events. Some are still being sealed with God's sealing today, especially in nations outside the Christian west. When the 6th Trumpet starts, that's the tribulation time. We're that close.

I wasn't talking about Armageddon, I was talking about the difference in Rev.11 between the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe period. The distinction of those two different Woe periods is what rightly divides the time of God's two witnesses for the tribulation time, and not for the later Milennium time as you say.

Veteran, there are so many different opinions as to where we are in the endtimes timeline...I would dearly like to know where your timeline is talked about, whether in book or website.

I do feel a certain inability to link specific events to the seals, trumpets, and vials, although I have studied all of the viewpoint : Historicist, Preterist, Futurest, Dispensational-Futurest...I'm sure there are more.

I need to know the reasoning for your opinion of being in the Trumpets, and when you think the Seals were opened.


Q

 

[veteran]

Veteran, there are so many different opinions as to where we are in the endtimes timeline...I would dearly like to know where your timeline is talked about, whether in book or website.

I do feel a certain inability to link specific events to the seals, trumpets, and vials, although I have studied all of the viewpoint : Historicist, Preterist, Futurest, Dispensational-Futurest...I'm sure there are more.

I need to know the reasoning for your opinion of being in the Trumpets, and when you think the Seals were opened.


Q

Study the events of Mark 13 in connection with the Seals of Rev.6. And note the parallel events to that within the last 3 trumpet - woe periods. That's what's most important at this time, the last 3 trumpet periods especially.

1st Sign: Mark 13:5-6 = first mentioned Seal of Rev.6, let no man deceive you, fake on a white horse mimic of Christ.
2nd Sign: Mark 13:7 = 2nd Seal red war horse
3rd & 4th Signs: Mark 13:8 = 3rd & 4th Seals, famine, war continuing, failed commerce, beast controls over a 4th part of the earth, beginning of sorrows.
5th Sign: Mark 13:9-13 = 5th Seal events, Christ's witnesses delivered up, tribulation
6th Sign: Mark 13:14-23 = 5th Seal and small portion of 6th Seal - height of the tribulation period with the pseudo-Christ, end of wars.
7th Sign: Mark 13:24-27 = Christ's coming to defeat the Antichrist and Christ gathering His elect


Even with those Seals in Rev.6 we cannot depend on their given order as being the exact timeline order of events for the end. They are close, but not exact. For example, the first mentioned Seal of one upon a white horse is the parallel to Christ's first warning in Mark 13:5-6 to let no man deceive us, about those who say they are Christ. That's pointing to the coming of the 'pseudo-Christ' He warns of later at Mark 13:22 (with "false Christs" phrase). We should know that is not the first event to occur, but an event for the later trib timing involving the placing of the "abomination of desolation" and Rev.13:11-17 and 2 Thess.2:3-4 events. Christ returns upon a white horse, and that one there is a fake to mimic that, which again, we know is not the very first event in the real timeline order for the end.

The locusts of Rev.9 on the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe is related to the locust working of the Book of Joel. It's about Satan's servants on earth gaining control over God's people and the earth, conquering in four parts. The last part they conquer is that of religion, which is strongly what those Rev.9 locusts are about.

The 5th trumpet represents a time of God sealing His servants for the end, i.e., for the tribulation period that begins on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. I say that 5th trumpet is where we still are today, along with the workings of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Seals.

Understanding this depends upon Bible study in the OT prophets and the NT Epistles. It cannot be gotten from just Revelation study by itself. Even in 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul gave a major clue about the tribulation of what will be going on with the "Peace and safety" idea. It's about the idea of world peace and the end of wars for the tribulation period, an idea men's doctrines steer totally away from. Paul showed when the deceived start saying, "Peace and safety", then sudden destruction will come upon them. That sudden destruction is the events of Christ's coming on the day of The LORD.

In the 2nd Sign of Mark 13:7, which is the 2nd Seal, Jesus said don't be troubled as long you hear of wars and rumours of war, because... what? Because the END is not yet He said. So the end period of this world just prior to His return is to be that time when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety", a time of world peace (but a fake world peace). That is the parallel to the working of the "vile person" (the final Antichrist) in Daniel 11 who comes to power using peace, destroying many using peace.

Many here don't like what this does to their 'sequential' view of the seals, trumpets, and vials they've been trained many years to follow. They don't like me because of throwing a monkey wrench into their sequential order of Revelation from men's doctrines. I suppose I'll soon find out if you also follow what they do. There's only 7 Signs that Christ gave for the end per His Olivet Discourse. And those 7 Signs are the same 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials of His Revelation through John. That's why they are in parallel, and not sequential like how John was given the Revelation. If they were in sequential, then Christ would have given 21 Signs in His Olivet Discourse instead of just 7.

 

[tgwprophet]

Veteran wrote: " Many here don't like what this does to their 'sequential' view of the seals, trumpets, and vials they've been trained many years to follow. They don't like me because of throwing a monkey wrench into their sequential order of Revelation from men's doctrines. I suppose I'll soon find out if you also follow what they do. There's only 7 Signs that Christ gave for the end per His Olivet Discourse. And those 7 Signs are the same 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials of His Revelation through John. That's why they are in parallel, and not sequential like how John was given the Revelation. If they were in sequential, then Christ would have given 21 Signs in His Olivet Discourse instead of just 7. "

Although many times we are not in agreement.. i do like you.. Veteran. For it is our dis-agreement that allows both you and me to grow. If we stood side by side we could not grow in our knowledge. I too have many monkey wrenches in which to toss, but my understandings are not doctrines of men. When you attempt to claim the trumps are aslo the seals.. then you claim since you know the trumps - you also know what is contained in the seals before they are opened... meaning there was no use in God having those things sealed... I do not believe that since seals are implemented that they will not seal what they contain. Now, if the 7 trumps reveal what is inside the sels than again the seals are useless. If what is contained inside the 7 seals are SEALED until they are opened. Then it makes sense Jesus would not have revealed this and that their information is different frrom the 7 trumps... pretty simple wrench for the monkey.

 

[veteran]

Veteran wrote: " Many here don't like what this does to their 'sequential' view of the seals, trumpets, and vials they've been trained many years to follow. They don't like me because of throwing a monkey wrench into their sequential order of Revelation from men's doctrines. I suppose I'll soon find out if you also follow what they do. There's only 7 Signs that Christ gave for the end per His Olivet Discourse. And those 7 Signs are the same 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials of His Revelation through John. That's why they are in parallel, and not sequential like how John was given the Revelation. If they were in sequential, then Christ would have given 21 Signs in His Olivet Discourse instead of just 7. "

Although many times we are not in agreement.. i do like you.. Veteran. For it is our dis-agreement that allows both you and me to grow. If we stood side by side we could not grow in our knowledge. I too have many monkey wrenches in which to toss, but my understandings are not doctrines of men.

Wasn't talking to you about that.

When you attempt to claim the trumps are aslo the seals.. then you claim since you know the trumps - you also know what is contained in the seals before they are opened... meaning there was no use in God having those things sealed...

That argument won't fly. Christ has opened the seals for His Church; that's why through Apostle John He gave to His Church the events of each Seal that goes along with what He gave in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13 about the 7 signs of the end. You're speaking as if the Seals have yet to be opened, when right there in Revelation 6 our Lord Jesus is opening them for us!

The Seals are the Seals, and the Trumpets are the Trumpets, so how have I called them both as the same like you say? That they parallel the same 7 signs Christ gave in His Olivet Discourse is not doing what you're suggesting.

I do not believe that since seals are implemented that they will not seal what they contain.

Once again, Christ has opened what the Seals contain per that Rev.6 chapter, for His Church. We are to 'understand' them, especially for today since the end is much closer now than it has ever been. Have you missed the main Message from Christ about His Revealtion to the Churches through John that was covered in the very first chapter of Revelation?

Now, if the 7 trumps reveal what is inside the sels than again the seals are useless.

That's just your opinion you're throwing out that has no Biblical basis. The Four Gospel Books are layed out in similar fashion, each one giving a different Witness of Christ's Ministry, crucifixion, and resurrection. Though they all are about the same Gospel and Ministry events, they differ in parts with different pieces of information, the Book of John probably being the deepest and most profound Gospel Book spiritually.

If what is contained inside the 7 seals are SEALED until they are opened. Then it makes sense Jesus would not have revealed this and that their information is different frrom the 7 trumps... pretty simple wrench for the monkey.

You're argument has no merit. It's a simple read in Rev.5 & 6 to know Christ is OPENING the Seals there...

Rev 5:4-5
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
(KJV)

Rev 6:1
1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
(KJV)

 

[tgwprophet]

Ok. Veteran, maybe I just been doing to much recently and forgot some of the things I researched many years ago. I think you are right about some of this. I will have to refresh my memory.

 

[veteran]

Ok. Veteran, maybe I just been doing to much recently and forgot some of the things I researched many years ago. I think you are right about some of this. I will have to refresh my memory.

No problems mate.

 

[Questor]

Study the events of Mark 13 in connection with the Seals of Rev.6. And note the parallel events to that within the last 3 trumpet - woe periods. That's what's most important at this time, the last 3 trumpet periods especially.

1st Sign: Mark 13:5-6 = first mentioned Seal of Rev.6, let no man deceive you, fake on a white horse mimic of Christ.
2nd Sign: Mark 13:7 = 2nd Seal red war horse
3rd & 4th Signs: Mark 13:8 = 3rd & 4th Seals, famine, war continuing, failed commerce, beast controls over a 4th part of the earth, beginning of sorrows.
5th Sign: Mark 13:9-13 = 5th Seal events, Christ's witnesses delivered up, tribulation
6th Sign: Mark 13:14-23 = 5th Seal and small portion of 6th Seal - height of the tribulation period with the pseudo-Christ, end of wars.
7th Sign: Mark 13:24-27 = Christ's coming to defeat the Antichrist and Christ gathering His elect


Even with those Seals in Rev.6 we cannot depend on their given order as being the exact timeline order of events for the end. They are close, but not exact. For example, the first mentioned Seal of one upon a white horse is the parallel to Christ's first warning in Mark 13:5-6 to let no man deceive us, about those who say they are Christ. That's pointing to the coming of the 'pseudo-Christ' He warns of later at Mark 13:22 (with "false Christs" phrase). We should know that is not the first event to occur, but an event for the later trib timing involving the placing of the "abomination of desolation" and Rev.13:11-17 and 2 Thess.2:3-4 events. Christ returns upon a white horse, and that one there is a fake to mimic that, which again, we know is not the very first event in the real timeline order for the end.

The locusts of Rev.9 on the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe is related to the locust working of the Book of Joel. It's about Satan's servants on earth gaining control over God's people and the earth, conquering in four parts. The last part they conquer is that of religion, which is strongly what those Rev.9 locusts are about.

The 5th trumpet represents a time of God sealing His servants for the end, i.e., for the tribulation period that begins on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. I say that 5th trumpet is where we still are today, along with the workings of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th Seals.

Understanding this depends upon Bible study in the OT prophets and the NT Epistles. It cannot be gotten from just Revelation study by itself. Even in 1 Thess.5 Apostle Paul gave a major clue about the tribulation of what will be going on with the "Peace and safety" idea. It's about the idea of world peace and the end of wars for the tribulation period, an idea men's doctrines steer totally away from. Paul showed when the deceived start saying, "Peace and safety", then sudden destruction will come upon them. That sudden destruction is the events of Christ's coming on the day of The LORD.

In the 2nd Sign of Mark 13:7, which is the 2nd Seal, Jesus said don't be troubled as long you hear of wars and rumours of war, because... what? Because the END is not yet He said. So the end period of this world just prior to His return is to be that time when the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety", a time of world peace (but a fake world peace). That is the parallel to the working of the "vile person" (the final Antichrist) in Daniel 11 who comes to power using peace, destroying many using peace.

Many here don't like what this does to their 'sequential' view of the seals, trumpets, and vials they've been trained many years to follow. They don't like me because of throwing a monkey wrench into their sequential order of Revelation from men's doctrines. I suppose I'll soon find out if you also follow what they do. There's only 7 Signs that Christ gave for the end per His Olivet Discourse. And those 7 Signs are the same 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 vials of His Revelation through John. That's why they are in parallel, and not sequential like how John was given the Revelation. If they were in sequential, then Christ would have given 21 Signs in His Olivet Discourse instead of just 7.

Thank you, Veteran. I'm going to spend the week studying these ideas, and others.

My Bible shows the unbelieving deceived Jews in Jerusalem WILL accept the coming Antichrist as their Messiah.

Even MANY Christian believers are going to be deceived into believing that false one coming to Jerusalem will be Christ Jesus having returned.

In Matthew 24:24 Christ specifically mentioned the idea of a Pseudo Christ (pseudochristos - "false Christs"). He warned how the great signs and wonders that false christ is to work would almost deceive even His Own elect if it were possible.

Jews here on this forum may not want to believe their unbelieving brethren are going to bow to that coming false christ, but that is especially who their religious leaders are preparing them for!

I do know that very many people will be deceived, including the majority of the sleeping church, and most of the Jews.

So many people are in apostasy, it is not hard to see who is who, and the difficulty in getting people to hear a word about the End of the Age

is very difficult in my area because of the many Dispensationalist views, because of the ease of living in the endtimes if you have a pre-trib rapture viewpoint. Right now, those that are in that big deception of the Adversary are in dangerous territory.

Q





Vetern said '



There's EVERY reason for Satan to mimic God's marking of His, for it involves the main event for the end of this world. What event do you think is the main event by Satan for this world at the end?'

My question...is it a physical mark, or merely the compiling of biometric data of the retinal print, with the facial scan, and handprint that will compel us to go on the run immediately, particularly in California, where the news now reports is switching asap? I had thought that the mark was the giving of a number or the name of the AntiChrist on forehead or right hand.

And the worship, is it a physical matter of bowing to an image after the desolation, or is it merely getting ID cards that enable one to work, drive, etc.? The worship of mammon disguised in an ordinary life, and done unknowingly?


Q

 

[veteran]

Vetern said '


There's EVERY reason for Satan to mimic God's marking of His, for it involves the main event for the end of this world. What event do you think is the main event by Satan for this world at the end?'

My question...is it a physical mark, or merely the compiling of biometric data of the retinal print, with the facial scan, and handprint that will compel us to go on the run immediately, particularly in California, where the news now reports is switching asap? I had thought that the mark was the giving of a number or the name of the AntiChrist on forehead or right hand.

And the worship, is it a physical matter of bowing to an image after the desolation, or is it merely getting ID cards that enable one to work, drive, etc.? The worship of mammon disguised in an ordinary life, and done unknowingly?


Q

The way I've been given to understand it is by referring to the parallel with the golden idol in Daniel's days with the decree to bow in false worship to it. The Rev.13 Scripture mentions there will be a required 'mark' for buying and selling, which is in connection with bowing in agreement to false worship. In other words, those who take that 'mark' for buying and selling will only be allowed to do so by AGREEING to worship the dragon. That's why it says there also those who refuse to worship are to be killed.

Think about it. Satan wants us to worship 'him'... in place of our Heaveny Father and His Son. That specifically is what he said he would get people to do per Isaiah 14 with God mocking him there. So what good would it do if he just forced... the mark upon everyone? He wants our soul, and wants us to bow to him as God. Forcing cannot do that; one must AGREE to worship him in place of The Father.