Communion vs Holy Communion

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BreadOfLife

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See again posts #138, 140, 144. The 98% is a true figure.

Your photographs are another way of lying.

My horrendous grammar style works pretty well, as you have no problem understanding what I am saying.

Stranger
Sooooo, I went back and re-read posts 138, 140 and 144. - and guess what?? NONE of them substantiate your random number of 98%. Not ONE of them even mentions a percentage.
Basically, you pulled that fictitious number out of a hat - which is what we intellectuals refer to as a "LIE".

Furthermore - you used the following statement from Trent as "evidence" the the cup was to be strictly "withheld" from the laity:
"1.(b.) There is no Divine precept binding the laity or non-celebrating priests to receive the sacrement under both kinds. (Trent, sess. XXI c.i.)"

This merely states that nobody is FORCED to drink from the cup.
It doesn't mean that they can't.

Oh, and you misspelled "Sacrament", Einstein . . .
 

Stranger

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Sooooo, I went back and re-read posts 138, 140 and 144. - and guess what?? NONE of them substantiate your random number of 98%. Not ONE of them even mentions a percentage.
Basically, you pulled that fictitious number out of a hat - which is what we intellectuals refer to as a "LIE".

Furthermore - you used the following statement from Trent as "evidence" the the cup was to be strictly "withheld" from the laity:
"1.(b.) There is no Divine precept binding the laity or non-celebrating priests to receive the sacrement under both kinds. (Trent, sess. XXI c.i.)"

This merely states that nobody is FORCED to drink from the cup.
It doesn't mean that they can't.

Oh, and you misspelled "Sacrament", Einstein . . .

No I documented what I said. Go back and reread.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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No I documented what I said. Go back and reread.

Stranger
Actually - you didn't.

There is NO mention in ANY of the so-called "evidence" you presented in those posts about percentages - let alone, 98%. That is a fabrication of your OWN concoction - and you got caught . . .

You see - this is the beauty of an open forum. The evidence presented is there for EVERYBODY to see - so you can't lie about it.
 

Stranger

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Actually - you didn't.

There is NO mention in ANY of the so-called "evidence" you presented in those posts about percentages - let alone, 98%. That is a fabrication of your OWN concoction - and you got caught . . .

You see - this is the beauty of an open forum. The evidence presented is there for EVERYBODY to see - so you can't lie about it.

Indeed it is there for everyone to read.

Go back and reread.

Stranger
 

Stranger

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I did - and there is absolutely ZERO evidence for your fictitious percentage of 98%.

Try again . . .

I documented what I said. Prove the documentation is wrong.

I don't need to try again. You need to add some wine with that cracker.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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I documented what I said. Prove the documentation is wrong.
I don't need to try again. You need to add some wine with that cracker.
Stranger
Tell you what:
Show me where your documentation points to "98%" of Catholics being prohibited from drinking from the Cup at mass as you have falsely claimed.

When you can show me that - you MIGHT have a case.
Until then, however - you're just blowing more hot wind . . .
 

Stranger

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Tell you what:
Show me where your documentation points to "98%" of Catholics being prohibited from drinking from the Cup at mass as you have falsely claimed.

When you can show me that - you MIGHT have a case.
Until then, however - you're just blowing more hot wind . . .



Read 138, 140, 144, and 146.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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Read 138, 140, 144, and 146.

Stranger
I already read posts 138, 140 and 144 - and there is ZERO evidence for your claim that "98%" of Catholics are prohibited from drinking the Cup during Mass.

HOWEVER - I read the link from post #146 and SAW that percentage - but it had NOTHING to do with what YOU said. It simply stated that out of all of the Rites that comprise the Catholic Church - the largest one is that Roman/Latin Rite - which is about 98% of Catholics.

NOWHERE did it state that "98%" of Catholic are "prohibited" from drinking the cup during mass.
You've been exposed AGAIN for lying. Don't you EVER tire of being humiliated by being exposed??
 

Stranger

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I already read posts 138, 140 and 144 - and there is ZERO evidence for your claim that "98%" of Catholics are prohibited from drinking the Cup during Mass.

HOWEVER - I read the link from post #146 and SAW that percentage - but it had NOTHING to do with what YOU said. It simply stated that out of all of the Rites that comprise the Catholic Church - the largest one is that Roman/Latin Rite - which is about 98% of Catholics.

NOWHERE did it state that "98%" of Catholic are "prohibited" from drinking the cup during mass.
You've been exposed AGAIN for lying. Don't you EVER tire of being humiliated by being exposed??

Here, give me your hand....Go to #138. There you will read statements that are documented. "Catholics in most countries only receive the Holy Host."

"As of right now, the permission to the reception of the Precious Blood by the laity in the Novus Ordo Mass, is only and indult. And indult is an exception, a privilage that can be taken away at any time so deemed necessary. It is not a right"

Now, walk with me to #140. Don't turn lose of my hand. There you will see statements documented concerning the Council of Trent. "...the chalise is strictly forbidden by ecclesiastical law to any but the celebrating priest."

Continue to hold on to my hand as we go to #144. There you will read CCC1390 which is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. "...the species of bread alone makes it possible to receive all the fruit of Eucharistic grace....established as the most common form in the Latin rite. "

Don't let go, only one more. In #146 there are documented statements. "...Latin Rite comprises 98% of all Catholics world wide."

Now, what have we learned here? We have learned that the giving of the Holy Host, (bread only) is the most common form in the Latin Rite. And we learned that the Latin Rite is 98% of Catholics.

What does this mean? It means that 98% of Catholic laity only get a cracker. And even if there is an exception there, it can be taken away at any time per the priest.

OK. You can turn lose now and run and play.

Quantrill
 
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BreadOfLife

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Here, give me your hand....Go to #138. There you will read statements that are documented. "Catholics in most countries only receive the Holy Host."

"As of right now, the permission to the reception of the Precious Blood by the laity in the Novus Ordo Mass, is only and indult. And indult is an exception, a privilage that can be taken away at any time so deemed necessary. It is not a right"

Now, walk with me to #140. Don't turn lose of my hand. There you will see statements documented concerning the Council of Trent. "...the chalise is strictly forbidden by ecclesiastical law to any but the celebrating priest."

Continue to hold on to my hand as we go to #144. There you will read CCC1390 which is the Catechism of the Catholic Church. "...the species of bread alone makes it possible to receive all the fruit of Eucharistic grace....established as the most common form in the Latin rite.

Don't let go, only one more. In #146 there are documented statements. "...Latin Rite comprises 98% of all Catholics world wide."

Now, what have we learned here? We have learned that the giving of the Holy Host, (bread only) is the most common form in the Latin Rite. And we learned that the Latin Rite is 98% of Catholics.

What does this mean? It means that 98% of Catholic laity only get a cracker. And even if there is an exception there, it can be taken away at any time per the priest.

OK. You can turn lose now and run and play.

Quantrill
Not only is this bad math - it's flimsy logic.

Let's say that the cup was offered to the laity ONLY in the United States - where is is absolutely available.
I'm not including ANY other countries here - even though the Cup is available in MOST European and South American countries as well.

There are 1.25 billion Catholics worldwide. Divide that by the 70.4 million Catholics in the U.S. alone and you get about 18.5%. Last time I checked, 100% - 18.5% = 81.5% - NOT 98%. That's JUST the U.S. alone.
So much for your math . . .

Now, onto the flimsy logic . . .
The links you provided speak to the number of people in the Latin/Roman Rite comprising about 98% of ALL Catholics. This in NO way relates to the number of communicants who receive under BOTH kinds. It is simply the percentages of Catholics in the Roman/Latin Rite.

Bad math + Flimsy logic = Moronic conclusion . . .
 

Stranger

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Not only is this bad math - it's flimsy logic.

Let's say that the cup was offered to the laity ONLY in the United States - where is is absolutely available.
I'm not including ANY other countries here - even though the Cup is available in MOST European and South American countries as well.

There are 1.25 billion Catholics worldwide. Divide that by the 70.4 million Catholics in the U.S. alone and you get about 18.5%. Last time I checked, 100% - 18.5% = 81.5% - NOT 98%. That's JUST the U.S. alone.
So much for your math . . .

Now, onto the flimsy logic . . .
The links you provided speak to the number of people in the Latin/Roman Rite comprising about 98% of ALL Catholics. This in NO way relates to the number of communicants who receive under BOTH kinds. It is simply the percentages of Catholics in the Roman/Latin Rite.

Bad math + Flimsy logic = Moronic conclusion . . .

Again, offering is not drinking.

The CCC was clear that bread only was the most common form in the Latin Rite which composes 98% of Romanists in the world.

Your own avatar is proof. No wine with that cracker.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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Again, offering is not drinking.
The CCC was clear that bread only was the most common form in the Latin Rite which composes 98% of Romanists in the world.
Your own avatar is proof. No wine with that cracker.
Stranger
And I've already BURIED your bogus "98%" rubbish with some simple math.
Besides - your argument from the beginning has been that the cup was "WITHHELD" from the laity - so "offering" is ALL the difference.

Consider yourself factually and mathematically spanked . . .
 

Stranger

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And I've already BURIED your bogus "98%" rubbish with some simple math.
Besides - your argument from the beginning has been that the cup was "WITHHELD" from the laity - so "offering" is ALL the difference.

Consider yourself factually and mathematically spanked . . .

Offering has never been the question. Drinking has.

And yet you keep holding up that cracker with no wine.

Lie enough, and you begin to believe them. Or, those you have been given.

Stranger
 

epostle1

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A forum sadist doesn't need to be truthful, they just need to inflict.
 

BreadOfLife

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Offering has never been the question. Drinking has.
And yet you keep holding up that cracker with no wine.
Lie enough, and you begin to believe them. Or, those you have been given.
Stranger
Okay - so now you're dead wrong on TWO points.

Your original argument was that the Catholic Church "withholds" the cup from the Laity.
I proved that to be a lie.

Your next charge is that 98% are "forbidden" from receiving the cup.
This has ALSO been proven to be a big, fat lie.

- I gave you photographic evidence that your charges were stupid. You responded with denials.
- I gave you quotes from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops indicating that this was the norm among the 18.5% of worldwide Catholic in the US. Again - all you have are are denials.

Your arguments are pathetic because they're ALL based on YOUR personal denials.
EVIDENCE, son - you can't win an argument without evidence - especially when your opponent has buried you with irrefutable proof . . .

PS - I just got back from serving communion at Mass. I distributed the Precious Blood to DOZENS of communicants this morning who were in my line.
According to YOUR pathetic denials - they were all just figments of my imagination . . .
 

epostle1

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John Calvin’s Mystical Eucharist vs. Logic, the Church Fathers, and Holy Scripture

Either Jesus’ body and blood are substantially present or not. If they are, then they are really there! One can’t deny that the elements are transformed (Catholic view) or joined by the true Body and Blood (Lutheranism) and still hold that there is substantial or “real” presence. Why?: because it is an internal contradiction. Calvin is saying that Jesus is simultaneously there and not there.

Miracles are not irrational. The supernatural is not irrational; it simply transcends natural laws governing matter or is outside of them (as spirit, since science and naturalism deals with matter). It will do no good to simply say, “it is above our understanding, and so we will construct irrational scenarios and not try to make them coherent. It’s a mystery….”

If Jesus isn’t really (substantially) present in the Eucharist, then the Calvinist Eucharist is scarcely distinguishable from the omnipresence of God or Zwinglianism. How is it particularly special or unique?

How is saying that Jesus is “mystically” (but not substantially) present logically distinguishable from pure Zwinglian symbolism, or how this is a miracle at all, because Jesus is already “mystically present” at all times and even lives within us, in the indwelling. Why should we receive a spiritual presence that we already have through omnipresence and the indwelling?

The Protestant Reformed Confessions hold that Jesus Christ is physically present in the Lord’s Supper, but in such a way that He remains at the right hand of God the Father in His resurrected, glorified, ascended body. But this is nonsensical. It’s a self-contradiction:

1. Jesus is physically present in the Supper.
2. But He is physically present at the right hand of God.
3. We are physically present with Christ in the Supper.
4. But we are physically present with Christ at the right hand of God.

Contradictions: 1 vs. 2, 3 vs. 4, 2 vs. 3, and 1 vs. 4.

Why take this view but oppose the view that Jesus is sacramentally present in the Supper? If we want to restrict ourselves solely to the literal post-Resurrection body of Christ, then we can’t say that is “physically present” in the Supper while simultaneously at the right hand of God, because that is a contradiction, as much as it would be a contradiction to say that Jesus was physically present in Jerusalem during His crucifixion, but simultaneously at the Sea of Galilee.

But the Catholic view is not contradictory because the miracle of transubstantiation is an additional mode of presence of Jesus that is physical in a way approximating spiritual omnipresence (similar in a sense to His post-Resurrection body when He appeared to His disciples and seemed to walk through walls).

We are not with Jesus in heaven yet, but He is sacramentally and eucharistically with us, by the miracle of the transformation of the elements. In other words, one has to posit the additional miracle of transubstantiation (or at least consubstantiation) in order to have the physical presence.

1. Jesus is physically present in the Supper.
2. But He is physically present at the right hand of God.
3. We are physically present with Christ in the Supper.
4. But we are physically present with Christ at the right hand of God.

Contradictions: 1 vs. 2, 3 vs. 4, 2 vs. 3, and 1 vs. 4.

Why take this view but oppose the view that Jesus is sacramentally present in the Supper? If we want to restrict ourselves solely to the literal post-Resurrection body of Christ, then we can’t say that is “physically present” in the Supper while simultaneously at the right hand of God, because that is a contradiction, as much as it would be a contradiction to say that Jesus was physically present in Jerusalem during His crucifixion, but simultaneously at the Sea of Galilee.

But the Catholic view is not contradictory because the miracle of transubstantiation is an additional mode of presence of Jesus that is physical in a way approximating spiritual omnipresence (similar in a sense to His post-Resurrection body when He appeared to His disciples and seemed to walk through walls).

We are not with Jesus in heaven yet, but He is sacramentally and eucharistically with us, by the miracle of the transformation of the elements. In other words, one has to posit the additional miracle of transubstantiation (or at least consubstantiation) in order to have the physical presence.

If one can believe that we are actually transported to heaven to meet Jesus there, why is it so difficult to believe that He can substantially be present here under the appearances of bread and wine? Both scenarios involve something that transcends our senses, and must be believed on faith. But one seems to involve a logical contradiction, whereas the other does not.

We say it is the accidents (characteristics of bread and wine) that are spiritual and not what they appear to be. The Reformed Protestants say, “He is truly here physically, but you are not physically eating His body.” Catholics say, “He is truly here physically, and you are physically eating His body, even though it appears to be merely bread and wine.”
by Dave Armstrong - ebook


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Stranger

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Okay - so now you're dead wrong on TWO points.

Your original argument was that the Catholic Church "withholds" the cup from the Laity.
I proved that to be a lie.

Your next charge is that 98% are "forbidden" from receiving the cup.
This has ALSO been proven to be a big, fat lie.

- I gave you photographic evidence that your charges were stupid. You responded with denials.
- I gave you quotes from the US Conference of Catholic Bishops indicating that this was the norm among the 18.5% of worldwide Catholic in the US. Again - all you have are are denials.

Your arguments are pathetic because they're ALL based on YOUR personal denials.
EVIDENCE, son - you can't win an argument without evidence - especially when your opponent has buried you with irrefutable proof . . .

PS - I just got back from serving communion at Mass. I distributed the Precious Blood to DOZENS of communicants this morning who were in my line.
According to YOUR pathetic denials - they were all just figments of my imagination . . .

No, the Roman church does refuse the laity the blood or wine. I have shown you that it is so.

No, the 98% is an accurate figure as I have proved. God back and reread.

Your photographs are nothing but the gross minority that get the blood/wine. Thus photographs are your method of lying.

Who knows what you mean when you say you 'distributed' the blood. Did they drink it? And, are you telling the truth? After all, we are left with only your statements. And, since it has been shown that you are prone to lying, I do not trust you statements.

Put some wine with that cracker on you avatar.

Stranger
 

BreadOfLife

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No, the Roman church does refuse the laity the blood or wine. I have shown you that it is so.

No, the 98% is an accurate figure as I have proved. God back and reread.

Your photographs are nothing but the gross minority that get the blood/wine. Thus photographs are your method of lying.

Who knows what you mean when you say you 'distributed' the blood. Did they drink it? And, are you telling the truth? After all, we are left with only your statements. And, since it has been shown that you are prone to lying, I do not trust you statements.

Put some wine with that cracker on you avatar.

Stranger
And I've already proven that at the very LEAST - 18% of Catholics receive under BOTH kinds. That's just here in the good ol' USA.
That alone proves your claim to be a pathetic lie.

Look - I realize how humiliating this must be for you - but digging your self into a deeper hole isn't helping you . . .
 

Stranger

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And I've already proven that at the very LEAST - 18% of Catholics receive under BOTH kinds. That's just here in the good ol' USA.
That alone proves your claim to be a pathetic lie.

Look - I realize how humiliating this must be for you - but digging your self into a deeper hole isn't helping you . . .

You prove you play with words. 'offered'- 'distributed'- now- 'receive'. Sure. Not the same as 'drinking'. You lie with pictures. You lie with words.
Go back and reread. I documented everything. Your claims are empty .

And, get some wine with that cracker in your avatar. It will help your cause...but not much.

Quantrill