Creation vs. Evolution Apologetics

[Wakka]

(Biblical Tetragramaton;25555)
Isaiah says something about it being a circle, not a sphere, and it was clearly not understood by the authors to be what it actually is.However, that aside, nothing in the Bible contradicts evolution at all. Only your understanding of the Torah, which is quite flawed, is leading you to think that.
So if you say that you don't believe in a literal creation then you're calling God a liar.You must not believe in a world wide flood then?How is your "logic" going to explain Christ's resurrection, you probably don't even believe in that too.

 

[Tyrel]

(Wakka;25558)
So if you say that you don't believe in a literal creation then you're calling God a liar.You must not believe in a world wide flood then?How is your "logic" going to explain Christ's resurrection, you probably don't even believe in that too.
Are you foolishly assuming to know and understand my beliefs without asking me? That's hilariously presumptive of you.First of all, God is NOT a liar. Note that first, he didn't write Genesis, and it is not written from him. It is inspired, and sacred scripture, testifying to sacred truth.Your understanding of it is simply materialistic rather than spiritual, and is false to boot. Look, I have provided the evidences. Until you deal with them how can we get anywhere with you? I'm being respectful and reserved about this heresy, because I used to stand in your shoes. But, I'm calling you to open your eyes. Away the blindfold. Away the blindfold!!In hope,~Tyrel

 

[Jordan]

Wakka, just leave him alone. He is NOT going to listen to God anytime soon I fear. He is an offensive to God.Jag

 

[Wakka]

The scripture comes from God word for word. It is from God.You still haven't answered my questions. I once believed in evolution. I believed that God had integrated it into his plan. What you're believing in is a lie from Satan.

 

[Tyrel]

(thesuperjag;25562)
Wakka, just leave him alone. He is NOT going to listen to God anytime soon I fear. He is an offensive to God.Jag
Are you presuming that if I don't "listen" to you, that I'm not listening to God? How very presumptuous!Besides, I am listening to you, and reading all your posts from beginning to end. I also, as I said, understand where you are coming from based on experience. I think the only ones not listening here, with respect, includes first and foremost Wakka and yourself.In Hope still,~Tyrel

 

[Tyrel]

(Wakka;25563)
The scripture comes from God word for word. It is from God.You still haven't answered my questions. I once believed in evolution. I believed that God had integrated it into his plan. What you're believing in is a lie from Satan. Evolution was founded by unrighteous men.
Unrighteous men? First, who are you to presume yourself their judge? Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether they were monks, martyrs, or sinners and whores. What they claim is separate from who they were. What we have here, in your post, is the most disgraceful practice of Ad Hominem I've ever seen.That said, the theory has evolved much with the help of honest Christian scientists. Satan is not the founder of such obviously coherent and supported truth.Please, let me ask you to be clear here; what questions haven't I answered which were addressed to me?Also, how can you accuse me of not answering to you, when you have not yet observed the evidences I have brought up for you to consider, or answered to my previous challenge to prove creationism {please read that challenge over for the details}.Please, don't play coy, and don't tiptoe around the issue pretending yourself to be intellectually honest. In hope,~Tyrel

 

[Wakka]

(Biblical Tetragramaton;25564)
Are you presuming that if I don't "listen" to you, that I'm not listening to God? How very presumptuous!Besides, I am listening to you, and reading all your posts from beginning to end. I also, as I said, understand where you are coming from based on experience. I think the only ones not listening here, with respect, includes first and foremost Wakka and yourself.In Hope still,~Tyrel
Nope. You're just not listening to God. Nor are you listening to 2000 years of sound Christian teaching and history. But you've gone ahead and jumped into the bandwagon of evolution. Where it's politically correct. Show me scripture that supports evolution.Show me the scripture and translate it. Then have scripture to back that up. That will be your strongest evidence.

 

[Jordan]

(Biblical Tetragramaton)
(thesuperjag;25562)
Wakka, just leave him alone. He is NOT going to listen to God anytime soon I fear. He is an offensive to God.Jag
Are you presuming that if I don't "listen" to you, that I'm not listening to God? How very presumptuous!Besides, I am listening to you, and reading all your posts from beginning to end. I also, as I said, understand where you are coming from based on experience.I think the only ones not listening here, with respect, includes first and foremost Wakka and yourself.In Hope still,~TyrelI don't want you to listen to me, for I am a man. I don't listen to men who lives in darkness. For Christ is the only Light in this world. I don't want you to listen to me, listen to Christ if you have ears to hear and if you have eyes to see. For now you are completely blinded by Satan and that's sad Tyrel.Jag

 

[Tyrel]

(Wakka;25567)
Nope. You're just not listening to God. Nor are you listening to 2000 years of sound Christian teaching and history. But you've gone ahead and jumped into the bandwagon of evolution. Where it's politically correct. Show me scripture that supports evolution.Show me the scripture and translate it. Then have scripture to back that up. That will be your strongest evidence.
My argument is obviously a little more advanced for you to grasp at this point, so I'll simply be content to direct you to two sources.First, the Jewish Talmud, where they discuss this at length, and yet not one person understands it to be literal. Second, Jewish Christian article, where they make an argument about this very issue.http://home.entouch.net/dmd/churchfathers.htmIf you would like other sources, just go to the Catholic Church, or the Anglican Church, or even www.talkorigins.orgDespite what you might think of their other Ideas and teachings, I would invite you to put aside ad hominem attacks which are so easy to childishly resort to, and simply consider what is said on this issue.Evolution, my friend, is not a bandwagon movement. That was my greatest claim against it until I learnt better, so I understand where you're coming from, but let's be honest here; are you willing to consider these things critically, and examine the evidence, or are you content with believing whatever you would like, regardless of accuracy?I pray you would wake up and away the blindfold.In Hope,~Tyrel

 

[Wakka]

(Biblical Tetragramaton;25566)
Unrighteous men? First, who are you to presume yourself their judge? Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether they were monks, martyrs, or sinners and whores. What they claim is separate from who they were. What we have here, in your post, is the most disgraceful practice of Ad Hominem I've ever seen.That said, the theory has evolved much with the help of honest Christian scientists. Satan is not the founder of such obviously coherent and supported truth.Please, let me ask you to be clear here; what questions haven't I answered which were addressed to me?Also, how can you accuse me of not answering to you, when you have not yet observed the evidences I have brought up for you to consider, or answered to my previous challenge to prove creationism {please read that challenge over for the details}.Please, don't play coy, and don't tiptoe around the issue pretending yourself to be intellectually honest. In hope,~Tyrel
I take back my statement on the "founders of evolution being unrighteous" as I don't really know much about the people other than the main contenders such as Charles Darwin and Gregor Mendel.And your last post containing those links. They do not have scripture. Those are doctrines of men, not the Word of God. Like I said, scripture backed up by scripture would be your strongest evidence.

 

[Jordan]

(Biblical Tetragramaton;25571)
(Wakka;25567)
Nope. You're just not listening to God. Nor are you listening to 2000 years of sound Christian teaching and history. But you've gone ahead and jumped into the bandwagon of evolution. Where it's politically correct. Show me scripture that supports evolution.Show me the scripture and translate it. Then have scripture to back that up. That will be your strongest evidence.
My argument is obviously a little more advanced for you to grasp at this point, so I'll simply be content to direct you to two sources.First, the Jewish Talmud, where they discuss this at length, and yet not one person understands it to be literal.Second, Jewish Christian article, where they make an argument about this very issue.http://home.entouch.net/dmd/churchfathers.htmIf you would like other sources, just go to the Catholic Church, or the Anglican Church, or even www.talkorigins.orgDespite what you might think of their other Ideas and teachings, I would invite you to put aside ad hominem attacks which are so easy to childishly resort to, and simply consider what is said on this issue.Evolution, my friend, is not a bandwagon movement. That was my greatest claim against it until I learnt better, so I understand where you're coming from, but let's be honest here; are you willing to consider these things critically, and examine the evidence, or are you content with believing whatever you would like, regardless of accuracy?I pray you would wake up and away the blindfold.In Hope,~TyrelYou mean, "I'll pray for you Wakka to go to sleep with a blindfold on." I need scriptures. I don't trust a single word that cometh out of your mouth Tyrel.Jag

 

[Tyrel]

(Wakka;25572)
I take back my statement on the "founders of evolution being unrighteous" as I don't really know much about the people other than the main contenders such as Charles Darwin and Gregor Mendel.And your last post containing those links. They do not have scripture. Those are doctrines of men, not the Word of God. Like I said, scripture backed up by scripture would be your strongest evidence.
Dear Wakka,All while I thank and commend you on this post, I must reply with an appeal to reason here, if I may.As I have already shown, not all things scientific are in the Bible. In fact, as I have proven with scripture, scripture is not intended to contain all things. It testifies to the Gospel truth. Notice the Gospel doesn't say anywhere how many toes we have, nor does it speak about things discovered in Science such as Black holes.I would like to appeal to you here. I don't think that the Bible has any information in it's sacred pages, divulging on the sacred Torah revealing itself to us, about the science or scientific reality of evolution, or organic chemistry, or any other topic of Biology, or any other scientific topic at all. This is because the Bible wasn't written to address those things at all. Just as the bible doesn't say that the earth revolves around the sun. Can you imagine yourself, or somebody like you, bringing the same challenge to the Christians who believed it revolved around the sun? They would only be able to respond that the Bible doesn't address this issue at all. I will go no further, for this time being, than to attest to the very same thing in this case; the Bible is silent on this issue of science.In Hope,~Tyrel

 

[Jordan]

(Biblical Tetragramaton;25575)
(Wakka;25572)
I take back my statement on the "founders of evolution being unrighteous" as I don't really know much about the people other than the main contenders such as Charles Darwin and Gregor Mendel.And your last post containing those links. They do not have scripture. Those are doctrines of men, not the Word of God. Like I said, scripture backed up by scripture would be your strongest evidence.
Dear Wakka,All while I thank and commend you on this post, I must reply with an appeal to reason here, if I may.As I have already shown, not all things scientific are in the Bible. In fact, as I have proven with scripture, scripture is not intended to contain all things. It testifies to the Gospel truth. Notice the Gospel doesn't say anywhere how many toes we have, nor does it speak about things discovered in Science such as Black holes.I would like to appeal to you here. I don't think that the Bible has any information in it's sacred pages, divulging on the sacred Torah revealing itself to us, about the science or scientific reality of evolution, or organic chemistry, or any other topic of Biology, or any other scientific topic at all. This is because the Bible wasn't written to address those things at all. Just as the bible doesn't say that the earth revolves around the sun. Can you imagine yourself, or somebody like you, bringing the same challenge to the Christians who believed it revolved around the sun? They would only be able to respond that the Bible doesn't address this issue at all. I will go no further, for this time being, than to attest to the very same thing in this case; the Bible is silent on this issue of science.In Hope,~TyrelMatthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Colossians 2:8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.Mark 13:23 - But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.Jag

 

[Christina]

This same old argument always comes up why is this because men refuse to see the truth that God laid out in his Word they insist on denying the word and coming up with one mans explanation after another. God has fore told us all things to bad men wont listen because they insist men are right.2 Peter will tell anyone with eyes to see that there were 3 world ages one is past the 1st earth age Dinosaurs lived and walked upon the earth as did all other creaturesGod destroyed the age and reformed the earth thus we have fossils and the such that are millions of years old. 2nd World age is now Gen 1:3 creation week each day in the creation week was 1000 human years long (2nd peter) there fore on the 7000th day(7th day) God rested 6000 years have passed sense No human bones have ever been found older than 8000 years old only apes because they were apes, No missing link because evolution never happenedThe first earth age was destroyed thus we still have fossils the earth BECAME voidThis earth age has always been deemed to be destroyed by fire (melting of the rudiments,elements)Then there was a new heaven and a new earth the 3rd world to come when Christ returnsNow there is a law of nature called survival of the fittest that does exist and minor changes in species have occurred because of this law, But no fish ever turned into birds no apes ever turned into men Evolution is a theory invented by men because they refuse to understand Gods Word about a 1st earth age and 1000 years to God is but 1 day to manThat is the entire Biblical truth and if men would listen this argument would be over.Science and the Bible are in agreement but men will find reasons to argue no matter what Gods word says2 Peter 3:5 But it is hid from them willing this thing, that heavens were before, and the earth of water was standing by water, by God's word [that heavens were first, and the earth of water and by water being, or standing, together by God's word]; 6 by which [things] that same world cleansed, then by water perished. 7 But the heavens that now be, and the earth, be kept by the same word, and be reserved to fire into the day of doom and perdition of wicked men. [Forsooth the heavens that now be, and the earth, by the same word put again, be kept to fire into the day of doom and perdition of unpious men.] 8 But, ye most dear, this one thing be not hid to you [be not unknown], that one day with God is as a thousand years, and a thousand years be as one day [and a thousand years as one day]. wycliff Bible

 

[Tyrel]

(kriss;25579)
This same old argument always comes up why is this because men refuse to see the truth that God laid out in his Word they insist on denying the word and coming up with one mans explanation after another. God has fore told us all things to bad men wont listen because they insist men are right.2 Peter will tell anyone with eyes to see that there were 3 world ages one is past the 1st earth age Dinosaurs lived and walked upon the earth as did all other creaturesGod destroyed the age and reformed the earth thus we have fossils and the such that are millions of years old. 2nd World age is now Gen 1:3 creation week each day in the creation week was 1000 human years long (2nd peter) there fore on the 7000th day(7th day) God rested 6000 years have passed sense No human bones have ever been found older than 8000 years old only apes because they were apes, No missing link because evolution never happenedThe first earth age was destroyed by water thus we still have fossilsThis earth age has always been deemed to be destroyed by fire (melting of the rudiments,elements)Then there was a new heaven and a new earth the 3rd world to come when Christ returnsNow there is a law of nature called survival of the fittest that does exist and minor changes in species have occurred because of this law, But no fish ever turned into birds no apes ever turned into men Evolution is a theory invented by men because they refuse to understand Gods Word about a 1st earth age and 1000 years to God is but 1 day to manThat is the entire Biblical truth and if men would listen this argument would be over.Science and the Bible are in agreement but men will find reasons to argue no matter what Gods word says2 Peter 3:5 But it is hid from them willing this thing, that heavens were before, and the earth of water was standing by water, by God's word [that heavens were first, and the earth of water and by water being, or standing, together by God's word]; 6 by which [things] that same world cleansed, then by water perished. 7 But the heavens that now be, and the earth, be kept by the same word, and be reserved to fire into the day of doom and perdition of wicked men. [Forsooth the heavens that now be, and the earth, by the same word put again, be kept to fire into the day of doom and perdition of unpious men.] 8 But, ye most dear, this one thing be not hid to you [be not unknown], that one day with God is as a thousand years, and a thousand years be as one day [and a thousand years as one day]. wycliff Bible
Dear Kriss,That is a most interesting proposition indeed, and I thank you for it. However, I find it partially disingenuous again, and here's why. First, you have now remodeled the literal account of Genesis, and perhaps one might say even mutilated it, so as to make it, presumably, line up better with the facts. However, you continue to ignore the empirical evidence which comes directly against this position as well.Allow me to give you an example. First, you don't see the phrase coming from the Psalmist, and quoted By Peter, of a day being as a thousand years, as a poetic term, which it clearly is. However, I'll allow, if only for the sake of argument, that it is meant to apply as a literal understanding of experienced causality from the Divine perspective.How, might I ask, did God create vegetation a thousand years before creating the sun?

 

[For Life]

I don't believe in evolution. I went to the site talkoforigins and searched for 30 min and found no evidence to support evolution. I've read 8 pages of really long winded reasons why I should support evolution, and yet I still don't. Even if I did support evolution I probably would have stopped after I went to the site Letsgofishing posted about 5 or 6 pages back. Also I don't have a problem with Genesis just the way it is written. I may not understand all of it, but I don't think it impossible for God to have created the earth and heaven in 7 days. I don't consider myself too dense to understand scientific facts. There are many scientific theories I do believe. But when those theories contradict what the bible says, then I have a problem.

 

[Jordan]

(Biblical Tetragramaton;25594)
(Kriss;25579)
This same old argument always comes up why is this because men refuse to see the truth that God laid out in his Word they insist on denying the word and coming up with one mans explanation after another. God has fore told us all things to bad men wont listen because they insist men are right.2 Peter will tell anyone with eyes to see that there were 3 world ages one is past the 1st earth age Dinosaurs lived and walked upon the earth as did all other creaturesGod destroyed the age and reformed the earth thus we have fossils and the such that are millions of years old. 2nd World age is now Gen 1:3 creation week each day in the creation week was 1000 human years long (2nd peter) there fore on the 7000th day(7th day) God rested 6000 years have passed sense No human bones have ever been found older than 8000 years old only apes because they were apes, No missing link because evolution never happenedThe first earth age was destroyed by water thus we still have fossilsThis earth age has always been deemed to be destroyed by fire (melting of the rudiments,elements)Then there was a new heaven and a new earth the 3rd world to come when Christ returnsNow there is a law of nature called survival of the fittest that does exist and minor changes in species have occurred because of this law, But no fish ever turned into birds no apes ever turned into men Evolution is a theory invented by men because they refuse to understand Gods Word about a 1st earth age and 1000 years to God is but 1 day to manThat is the entire Biblical truth and if men would listen this argument would be over.Science and the Bible are in agreement but men will find reasons to argue no matter what Gods word says2 Peter 3:5 But it is hid from them willing this thing, that heavens were before, and the earth of water was standing by water, by God's word [that heavens were first, and the earth of water and by water being, or standing, together by God's word]; 6 by which [things] that same world cleansed, then by water perished. 7 But the heavens that now be, and the earth, be kept by the same word, and be reserved to fire into the day of doom and perdition of wicked men. [Forsooth the heavens that now be, and the earth, by the same word put again, be kept to fire into the day of doom and perdition of unpious men.] 8 But, ye most dear, this one thing be not hid to you [be not unknown], that one day with God is as a thousand years, and a thousand years be as one day [and a thousand years as one day]. wycliff Bible
Dear Kriss,That is a most interesting proposition indeed, and I thank you for it. However, I find it partially disingenuous again, and here's why. First, you have now remodeled the literal account of Genesis, and perhaps one might say even mutilated it, so as to make it, presumably, line up better with the facts. However, you continue to ignore the empirical evidence which comes directly against this position as well.Allow me to give you an example. First, you don't see the phrase coming from the Psalmist, and quoted By Peter, of a day being as a thousand years, as a poetic term, which it clearly is. However, I'll allow, if only for the sake of argument, that it is meant to apply as a literal understanding of experienced causality from the Divine perspective.How, might I ask, did God create vegetation a thousand years before creating the sun?@ Kriss, you are absolutely correct that there is three Earth Ages.

We are indeed in the Second Earth Age right now. (The Flesh Age)Tyrel, dear poor soul, you are free to believe in what you want. You want evidance? Then go with men. I'll go with Faith over these so-called-evidance-of-men anyday.Jag

 

[Christina]

(Biblical Tetragramaton;25594)
Dear Kriss,That is a most interesting proposition indeed, and I thank you for it. However, I find it partially disingenuous again, and here's why. First, you have now remodeled the literal account of Genesis, and perhaps one might say even mutilated it, so as to make it, presumably, line up better with the facts. However, you continue to ignore the empirical evidence which comes directly against this position as well.Allow me to give you an example. First, you don't see the phrase coming from the Psalmist, and quoted By Peter, of a day being as a thousand years, as a poetic term, which it clearly is. However, I'll allow, if only for the sake of argument, that it is meant to apply as a literal understanding of experienced causality from the Divine perspective.How, might I ask, did God create vegetation a thousand years before creating the sun?
Well as I said you will listen to traditions of men even thou there is no facts to back up what they sayIf you would bother to check the facts the Hebrew will tell the youIn the Hebrew translation of the word, "was", as used in this verse "...the earth was without form,..."; in the original text it reads "became without form...". This same mistranslation of the word "became", and turning it into the word "was" is also present in Genesis 2:7. It should read there; "..and man became a living soul." Now how do you become something if you were not something before????(try using grey matter here)The correct Hebrew translation from the Massoretic Hebrew text for the words, "without form" is "tohu-va bohu" in the Hebrew Strong's dictionary. So we see that the earth was not "created without form", but it "became [tohu] without form and void". Lets go to Strong's Hebrew dictionary, reference number 1961 to verify the word "was", that we read in this verse. "Yahah, haw-yaw; a prime root, to exit; to become, or come to pass." [#1961] Now lets continue in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary to get the true meaning for the word "void". # 2258, on page 36 tells us that we have to go to # 2254 for the prime on the meaning of this word "void". # 2254; "Chabal, khaw-bal; to wind tightly as a rope, to bind, to pervert, destroy, to corrupt, spoil, travail," This corresponds with its other use in # 2255, which reads; "to ruin"."Tohu" of the earth, then means that total destruction had come to pass upon the earth. The second "was" in the verse is in italics type because there is no verb "to be" in the Hebrew language. One of the problems in translating the Hebrew into English is that the verb, "to be" is not distinguished from the verb, "to become".At the end of Genesis 1:1 the first earth age ceased to exist in its previous form. God created the earth to be inhabited, and then He destroyed it. There was an entire earth age that existed between verses one and two of Genesis. This first earth age is spoken of in II Peter, Jeremiah, Proverbs, and Jude. However I used the Wyclff Bible here because it best denotes the Hebrew and Englishand if you read it it will answer your question2 Peter 3:5 But it is hid from them willing this thing, that heavens were before, and the earth of water was standing by water, by God's word [that heavens were first, and the earth of water and by water being, or standing, together by God's word]; 6 by which [things] that same world cleansed, then by water perished. (the heavens and the earth perished ) Where does it say the sun didnt exist if animals exist so did vegetation isnt that why we have oil and such things?7 But the heavens that now be, and the earth, be kept by the same word, and be reserved to fire into the day of doom and perdition of wicked men. [Forsooth the heavens that now be, and the earth, by the same word put again, be kept to fire into the day of doom and perdition of unpious men.] 8 But, ye most dear, this one thing be not hid to you [be not unknown], that one day with God is as a thousand years, and a thousand years be as one day [and a thousand years as one day]. wycliff BibleAnd as far as the thousand years its the same old story deny God because he tells you the exact truth because some man said different Peter said 1000 years to man is one day with lord,1 day with the Lord is a thousand years to man He repeats it twice Gods whole word is based in numbers they are extremly important in understaning certain things yet because you have decided for No biblical reason Peter was making some obscure nonliteral meaning. for what purpose??He specifically says this was hiddden information he was departing wisdom yet for some reason he must be making up the hidden info and not telling us anything. And you accuse me of butchering the Word. What scripture do you base your assumption it isnt literal time on.?But hey lets ignore the Word and common sense Men in all their wisdom have said God is wrong.

 

[Tyrel]

(For Life;25603)
I don't believe in evolution. I went to the site talkoforigins and searched for 30 min and found no evidence to support evolution. I've read 8 pages of really long winded reasons why I should support evolution, and yet I still don't. Even if I did support evolution I probably would have stopped after I went to the site Letsgofishing posted about 5 or 6 pages back. Also I don't have a problem with Genesis just the way it is written. I may not understand all of it, but I don't think it impossible for God to have created the earth and heaven in 7 days. I don't consider myself too dense to understand scientific facts. There are many scientific theories I do believe. But when those theories contradict what the bible says, then I have a problem.
Dear For Life,Allow me to ask you, did you observe the extensive lists of intermediary fossils? Did you watch the Ken Miller Video i linked you to? Did you actually go looking for evidences at all? No offense, but half an hour on a website doesn't really sound like an impressive bout of effort.Please, watch the video if you don't know how to move around in the website. Tell me what you think of the Ken Miller Video.PS - Evolution does NOT contradict the Bible.In Hope,~Tyrel

 

[Christina]

For Lifenotice I have told you what Gods Word says BT has told you to watch a mans videothere never has been any proof of evolution there are simply creatures(fossils) from the first earth age and creaters from this eath age. Evolution is a non-proved theroy of men because of lack of ability to grasp and or believe in God.