I’m not playing linguistic games.
Allow me to rephrase my question then:
You prefer to operate under the assumption that Jesus of Nazareth did actually exist. If critical thinking has nothing to do with it, then why is that your preference?
Critical thinking and education is linked to loss of faith
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I’m not playing linguistic games.
Allow me to rephrase my question then:
You prefer to operate under the assumption that Jesus of Nazareth did actually exist. If critical thinking has nothing to do with it, then why is that your preference?
Then say you take his word for it. There's nothing forensics about it.
Because I find the idea of billions of Christians worldwide worshipping a man that never existed, too disturbing.
All I have from his mouth is written by others in the New Testament. Scholars / apologists use FSA as a tool.
I’ve already recommended a book to you on forensic faith. There are many. Mine is a forensic faith whether you can accept it or not.
That’s a feeling. The world is filled with billions of people who believe things which are false.
A forensic faith based on what Jesus believed to be true. But we have actual geological evidence today that proves np worldwide flood ever occurred. We know now that the story of Eden could not be true because two human beings aren't enough to start a civilization. There's simply not enough genetic diversity.
I agree. I could be wrong. Jesus very well may be an entirely made up character that never existed. Or he could have existed, and his followers embellished who he was as a person. Or he could truly be the messiah.
I have no way to prove any of this. No amount of forensics are going to solve a case that's 2,000 years old, much less one involving an abundance of supernatural events surrounding the man.
You’ll be able to find without great difficulty geologists and geneticists who take the opposite view.
My father was a professional geologist and an agnostic. He believed there was worldwide flooding. When pushed, he grudgingly said that it is possible there was a worldwide flood event.
It has for millions. It may not for you. It did for Flew.
If the flood did occur, we would find evidence of it. Especially if it only happened just a few thousand years ago. I remain open to such evidence, however.
I don't know any geneticist that would conclude that two people are enough for the long term survival of a species. We know the consequences of inbreeding.
I know. And I do plan on reading the book.
It’s all around us.
Good to hear.
The first human beings lived much longer than human beings do today. Look for geneticists who take that into account.
Excellent. You won’t regret it. I wish I had read it when it was first published. A lot of water passed under the bridge before I finally got around to it. I missed a lot of conversation opportunities where, had I read it, I would have drawn on it to good affect.
What is?
Even if that were true, it doesn't change the fact that there isn't enough genetic diversity. To be clear, all of the evidence points in the direction of our ancestors living much shorter lives than us due to the lack of modern medicine, tribal violence, predators, etc.
Evidence of flooding.
Modern medicine is killing us. Tribal violence initially would be nothing more than isolated family violence. Predators have never been invincible. As for etc. -> more of the same common sense explanations.
The evidence, Flew discovered, points to the veracity of the biblical narrative.
We’re both engaged in critical thinking.
Critical thinking is leading you in one direction and critical thinking is leading me in the opposite direction.
The atheist who started this thread wanted his readers to become persuaded that critical thinking and education leads always and only in one direction in regard to faith.
P.S.
Flew shows us that the atheist’s proposition is flawed.
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I've yet to see any evidence put forth that supports the idea that the entire world was flooded. Floods leave physical evidence that geologists would have recognized by now.
Actually, I think it's been quite beneficial. Antibiotics especially.
I’ve seen lots of evidence.
There are some benefits. There are also drawbacks. See, for example, the Covid vaccine.
The Christians start with a conclusion and work backwards. That's not proper science. In what reality would a Christian come to the conclusion that the bible is wrong? You see what I'm getting at here?
Yeah, I didn't take it. I had to put up with many uncomfortable conversations and outside pressure during that terrible time. But outside of experimental vaccines, modern medicine is is nice to have, I think.
They start with a biblical worldview.
There are plenty of Christians who believe that some things in the Bible are “wrong”. If you look for them, you’ll find some of them here.
The Bible isn’t a science book?
The Pharmaceutical industry doesn’t thrive on making sick people well.
A general observation: Physicians in 2025 are very different from physicians in, say, 1965.
I avoid them as much as possible and I don’t take any prescription meds.
Which is just another way of saying they start with a conclusion and work their way backwards.
Do you?
No. But it should be of it is indeed divinely inspired. There should be no aspect of it that's wrong, period. Full stop. At least I think so, anyway.
Agreed. It's a business. There's a fine line it must walk between curing bacterial infections and generating recurrent revenue by keeping people just sick enough to require medications.
In what ways?
Well done. You must have a good diet. Or you're obese and just don't care. Either one.
From my perspective, they work forward.
Do I look for them? Yes.
Do I agree with them? No.
The Bible is inspired but it isn’t a science book. Science isn’t the enemy of the Bible, nor is the Bible the enemy of science. There have always been scientists who were / are believers.
It’s almost the case that that is what the practice of medicine is these days -> “The Dr. is a drug pusher.”
In multiple ways. A few examples. When I was a child and became ill, the doctor came to my house; I wasn’t taken to his office. He (a female doctor would have been somewhat rare in those days) seldom prescribed drugs of any kind. Everything he needed was in the little black bag that he carried. Vaccinations of any type were few. X-rays? No way, except in extreme circumstances.
Well done. You must have a good diet. Or you're obese and just don't care. Either one.
I inherited good genes.
One can never be impartial in such a case. It's too easy to succumb to one's own biases.
Fair enough.
I disagree, and so do many Christians. How does one square evolution with creationism? I know some try to make it work, but if we're being honest, it's one or the other.
At least it's covered by insurance.
You guys had it good. A doctor that would come to your house. A good economy. Affordable housing. What do us millennials have? We have to drive to our doctor appointments.
Hit the genetic lottery, did we? Fair enough.
Everyone has a bias.
Inscribe my name in the creationism column.
At least it's covered by insurance.
I don’t file any insurance claims for prescription drugs but I’m still forced to pay for the coverage.
You guys had it good. A doctor that would come to your house. A good economy. Affordable housing. What do us millennials have? We have to drive to our doctor appointments.
Hit the genetic lottery, did we? Fair enough.
If you knock up a lady:
1. pay for the abortion
2. Child Support
3. depending on age criminal conviction, on sex offenders list for life
4. possible, not likely sexually transmitted diseases
My Dad said, don't have sex with a lady unless you want to marry her.
7 Key Pieces of Evidence Supporting the Existence of Jesus Christ
Whether you're a believer or a skeptic, the question of whether Jesus of Nazareth truly lived 2,000 years ago is a fascinating historical puzzle. While the divine miracles attributed to him are a matter of faith, scholars and archaeologists have uncovered several compelling clues that suggest Jesus
www.thearchaeologist.org
14 Compelling Pieces of Evidence That Jesus Existed
Is there any evidence that Jesus existed? In his book, Lee Strobel consults scholars and clergy to find out the truth: was Jesus real?
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Here’s the historical evidence from non-Christian sources that Jesus lived and died
A wealth of written evidence exists to prove Christianity is not based on a fairy tale.
aleteia.org
Was Jesus real? Examining the evidence
Whether Jesus of Nazareth truly walked the earth, or remains a figure lost to myth, has been a matter of debate for centuries. Outside of the Gospels, scant records survive to confirm his existence. While Roman chroniclers mentioned him briefly, and Jewish historians wrote of a crucified teacher...
www.historyskills.com
Scientists have finally 'proven' if Adam and Eve really existed
The Bible says that Adam and Eve were the first two humans and were made by God. The Old Testament says they lived in the Garden of Eden and are central to the belief that everyone on the planet descended from a single pair of original ancestors.
Scientific evidence on whether Adam and Eve really did exist
The story of Adam and Eve, the first man and woman to be created by God, is one of the most famous in the Bible. But many question whether they really existed - but science has tried to answer that
This piece is excerpted from a longer article alum T. Wyatt Reynolds, AB ’17, wrote for Mere Orthodoxy.
An atheist, a Christian, and a Jew start talking about science and faith. This might seem like it is either the lead up to a joke or the beginning of a fight. Instead, it was the setting of a meeting convened by S. Joshua Swamidass, MD, associate professor of Pathology & Immunology in the School of Medicine and of Biomedical Engineering in the McKelvey School of Engineering. This meeting gathered scientists and theologians of nearly every stripe to discuss his new book, The Genealogical Adam and Eve (Intervarsity Press). Its argument: that there is no intrinsic contradiction between conventional evolutionary theory and belief in Adam and Eve as a couple specially created six thousand years ago.
What does science tell us about Adam and Eve?
Washington University Professor S. Joshua Swamidass, MD, uses science to show that Adam and Eve could have existed.
source.washu.edu
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