'Death is swallowed up in victory' -When?

[mjrhealth]

If i am understanding your reasoning,
I say amen to what you understand by the Spirit of God, in that Jesus was "brought forth" before the creation of the world.

But unfortunately, that truth is diametrically opposed to the JW view of the beginning of Jesus Christ, in that they believe that Jesus' life began, when He was made flesh. Iows, to them Jesus had no pre-existence of any kind.
The JW view is of that spirit of antichrist.
1 John 4:2 2 John 1:7

Oh I know HE is wrong about a lot of things but one cannot deny the truth when it is spoken, no matter who speaks it. And by the way that was when His life began. Gods word is always with him, just as men have ideas, Gods word existed since teh beginning since when God spoke by His word things came into being and life began, as it was with Jesus, God spoke, Mary Received and Life was born in Her, that is how God works, it is the same with us. God speaks, when we receive His word, we become a new creation and a new life is created in us.

Have had some wonderfull discussions with JW's but liek all religions they have nothing to offer but there religion.

 

[Davy]

Davy has been suckered and sucked into the New Age Thinking of the Luciferian Doctrine!

That of course is false. It's the Luciferians who believe in reincarnation which is about getting a new flesh body, again and again. I do not believe any such thing. I believe what my Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul taught, those of the resurrection are as the angels of God in heaven (Matthew 22:30), and it is a resurrection to a body of incorruption Paul called a "spiritual body".

So I don't know where in the world you came up with the LIE that I've been suckered into New Age Luciferian doctrine. You're simply MAD.

 

[Earburner]

I'm saying I don't go by imperfect people's interpretations. If it's written down in Scripture that God, "sent his Only Begotten Son to the world," that's what I believe. What you and others, think or say about me because I believe that when all of you are just imperfect men/women doesn't concern me. Imperfect men/women can say they have God Holy Spirit and they can honestly believe that to be true, but that doesn't mean it is true.

All you are doing, is showing us all how you straddle the fence in double jeopardy.

Jesus is not looking for "fence sitters".
He is looking for those who are either "hot" or "cold". Anyone who is found to be "lukewarm" (a fence sitter), will be spit out of His mouth (rejected).
Revelation 3:15-16.

 

[Earburner]

That of course is false. It's the Luciferians who believe in reincarnation which is about getting a new flesh body, again and again. I do not believe any such thing. I believe what my Lord Jesus and Apostle Paul taught, those of the resurrection are as the angels of God in heaven (Matthew 22:30), and it is a resurrection to a body of incorruption Paul called a "spiritual body".

So I don't know where in the world you came up with the LIE that I've been suckered into New Age Luciferian doctrine. You're simply MAD.

You are denying the physical resurrection of Jesus into His New physical body, with NEW and Eternal Life!
Thomas SAW Jesus' Immortal spiritual body "of flesh and bone".
Not only did he see it, Jesus invited Thomas to handle His wounds aggressively!

 

[Earburner]

Our Lord Jesus' flesh body was transfigured to show the marks of His crucifixion. That is not what happens to us.

1 Cor 15:50
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

The resurrection body, or "spiritual body" that Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15, is a body like the angels per our Lord Jesus...

Matt 22:30
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
KJV


We are given Bible examples like in Genesis 18 & 19 about angels being able to walk and talk upon this earth, eat man's food, and appear with the image of man. Hebrews 13 even tells us to be hospitable to strangers, because some have entertained angels unaware. Same with Christ's resurrection body. He was able to walk on the earth, and sit down and eat man's food. But to show that body was of a different dimension, He could suddenly appear right in the midst of His disciples, and likewise disappear right in front of them, as written. A flesh body cannot do that.

So even though the resurrection body can do many things similar to a flesh body, look like one and feel like one, still, it is not a flesh body, which would still be a body of corruption.

Now that I agree with.
Now you are more clear in saying what you mean. The way i was understanding you, was that Jesus is now only a Spirit as God the Father.
Yes, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, being a new and Immortal creation of "flesh and bone", capable of being spirit at will. He is as most do call him: "the God man".

But now, we also who are of faith in Him, being born again of His Holy Spirit from above, are being made into His Likeness, but as yet, we do not know what we shall appear to be, but that we shall be LIKE Him.

The process by which God has ordained for us, is as if it were in a reversal of process of that which was done in Jesus.
1. He who is Spirit became flesh, and is Resurrected.
2. We who are flesh, became Spirit through faith in Christ, and are now awaiting our resurrection.
John 3:6
Romans 8:9

 

[Earburner]

So, for all of what I have said, and am saying is, we all can believe in God, Jesus and the Bible, but if the Holy Spirit has NOT taken up permanent residence WITHIN us, we ARE "NONE OF HIS"!
Romans 8:8-9
Ephesians 4:30
John 3:5-7
1 John 5:13
Its that simple!

 

[Earburner]

Boundless self-worshipper, you replace the Holy Spirit OF GOD with your own self in yourself and you replace the Witness in the Word - the INSPIRING Holy Spirit and Speaking GOD of and IN THE BIBLE - with your hypocritical feelings and foolish opinion denying and BELITTLING the Holy Spirit of God in His Written Word and instead worship the idol of yourself and your own spirit. BLASPHEMY! I know you, you are not a stranger to me, and I shall as Thomas Watson said, no Bunyan it was who said, "INSTANTLY RESIST YOU AS THAT WHICH IS DIABOLICAL BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST THE BIBLE".

You worship "a word god" called the bible.
I worship "God who is a spirit", through "the Word made flesh", called Jesus.

One is the "Lord of the harvest", and the other is not!
Do you know the difference?
See John 5:39, and learn what that meaneth.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

All you are doing, is showing us all how you straddle the fence in double jeopardy.

Jesus is not looking for "fence sitters".
He is looking for those who are either "hot" or "cold". Anyone who is found to be "lukewarm" (a fence sitter), will be spit out of His mouth (rejected).
Revelation 3:15-16.

I'm not straddling nothing just because someone says I am. Exercising faith in the written word of God, is showing how much more I love The True God than loving the interpretations of what imperfect human beings are saying the scriptures say.

 

[mjrhealth]

So, for all of what I have said, and am saying is, we all can believe in God, Jesus and the Bible, but if the Holy Spirit has NOT taken up permanent residence WITHIN us, we ARE "NONE OF HIS"!
Romans 8:8-9
Ephesians 4:30
John 3:5-7
1 John 5:13
Its that simple!

He teh Holy Spirit is the mark that God places on us that says, "you are mine".

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[Earburner]

I'm not straddling nothing just because someone says I am. Exercising faith in the written word of God, is showing how much more I love The True God than loving the interpretations of what imperfect human beings are saying the scriptures say.

All the scriptures testify of Jesus Christ, but for all that they do, they will not and cannot grant to anyone God's Gift of Eternal Life.
John 5[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[mjrhealth]

All the scriptures testify of Jesus Christ, but for all that they do, they will not and cannot grant to anyone God's Gift of Eternal Life.
John 5[39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

You missed teh important bit that is most ignored

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

 

[Earburner]

You missed teh important bit that is most ignored

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

Yes, Amen!

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

This is Jesus, who He since before Incarnation had been and forever after incarnation in FULL FELLOWSHIP of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit IN HOLY TRINITY will be, and WHERE and HOW He will be God in Christ, and never in earcreeper's poisonous tentacles, his victim, never!

 

[Earburner]

View attachment 9776

Nice mantra, and it sounds truthful, but its not!
You would have us believe that Jesus was not pre-existent before his incarnation through Mary.
Once again see Genesis 1:26 Proverbs 8:22-31 John 1:1-6
John 1:14

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

mjrhealth said: ↑
You missed teh important bit that is most ignored
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Joh 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

Yes, Amen!

Two of one mind self-appointed bogus apostles. Get another ten, then you can start your own movement.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Nice mantra, and it sounds truthful, but its not!
You would have us believe that Jesus was not pre-existent before his incarnation through Mary.
Once again see Genesis 1:26 Proverbs 8:22-31 John 1:1-6
John 1:14

And you are God who can tell me what I believe better than I can.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

This is Jesus, who He since before Incarnation had been and forever after incarnation in FULL FELLOWSHIP of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit IN HOLY TRINITY will be, and WHERE and HOW He will be God in Christ, and never in earcreeper's poisonous tentacles, his victim, never!

 

[Davy]

You are denying the physical resurrection of Jesus into His New physical body, with NEW and Eternal Life!
Thomas SAW Jesus' Immortal spiritual body "of flesh and bone".
Not only did he see it, Jesus invited Thomas to handle His wounds aggressively!

No, I am NOT... denying the resurrection of my Lord Jesus. You are only telling a LIE.


Not only Thomas had a hard time believing that Jesus had been raised from the dead, but so did other disciples:

Luke 24:36-43
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, "Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And He said unto them, "Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have.

40 And when He had thus spoken, He shewed them His hands and His feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, He said unto them, "Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And He took it, and did eat before them.
KJV

As I have said, Jesus' flesh body was transfigured and kept the marks of His crucifixion. But was that a body of corruption in that final state? No. A body of corruption cannot walk through walls nor just appear and disappear like His resurrection body did.


Thus those like Earburner who obviously believe the FALSE 'dead in the ground' theory, and the FALSE belief in Jewish reincarnation that we get new flesh bodies in the resurrection, DENIES this 1 Corinthians 15 Scripture by Apostle Paul...

1 Cor 15:49-51
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
KJV

 

[Davy]

Now that I agree with.
Now you are more clear in saying what you mean. The way i was understanding you, was that Jesus is now only a Spirit as God the Father.

And the way you ATTACKED me showed you believe the resurrection is to another flesh body of corruption. So are you changing your mind now? I kind of doubt it. I think you are still stuck in a fleshy understanding about a literal resurrection of the flesh.

Yes, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, being a new and Immortal creation of "flesh and bone", capable of being spirit at will. He is as most do call him: "the God man".

Well no, what He said to His disciples about touching Him as flesh and bone does not mean His resurrection body was 'still' a flesh and bone body of corruption. His flesh body was transfigured, it didn't see 'corruption':

Acts 2:27
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption.
KJV

In that sense our Lord Jesus' resurrection is different than ours, in that Jesus' flesh body did not see corruption (Greek means 'decay'). It was transfigured to the heavenly dimension image, and kept the marks of His crucifixion. Our flesh will not go through that; I am not going to have the scars my flesh body has today. Nor am I getting a new flesh body of corruption either. On top of our Lord Jesus saying that those of the resurrection are like the angels of God in heaven, Apostle John said this about Christ's resurrected body...

1 John 3:2
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.
KJV

Apostle John well knew there was something different about Christ's transfigured resurrection body. Suddenly appearing and disappearing among them no doubt was a strong clue. This is why John said that, "it doth not yet appear what we shall be". That shows even though He believed Jesus rose from the dead, and may have even felt Jesus' transfigured body and it felt just like a flesh body, he well knew there was something else going on.

And because our Lord Jesus in Matthew 22:30 said those of the resurrection are as the angels of God in heaven, it means our hope in a future resurrection is about being changed to the "image of the heavenly" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. And that is the same type image our Lord Jesus' transfigured state is too, which is why John would say "we shall be like Him" when He appears.

Only in THAT sense can what you say about Jesus being the Firstborn from the dead agree with those other Scriptures. So in other words, the resurrection is about the "image of the heavenly", and that is also what Jesus' transfigured body from the flesh is also. It is not another literal flesh body of corruption, even though it still has the marks of His crucifixion. Our flesh bodies will see corruption, and will not be transfigured like His. We will put off this flesh, and our "spiritual body" will be revealed.

 

[charity]

Your interpretation is really a 'fleshy' thinking about the resurrection. We don't get new flesh bodies, so the resurrection really is not about a literal dead in the ground waiting to be raised idea. That idea is from the old Jewish traditions of men.

Ecclesiastes 12 was the first Scriptures that reveals what happens at death, and what our makeup is that God created us with.

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

That is the first ever Bible mention of the idea of a "silver cord" being a link between that "spirit" and the flesh. Old traditions treat that "spirit" part like just something that animates all things with life, like animals and plants also have it. But in Matthew 10:28 Jesus said to not fear one who can kill the body (flesh), but not the soul. That reveals that our soul is connected to that spirit that goes back to God at flesh death.

In 1 Corinthians 15, this is actually what Apostle Paul was teaching, revealing that both our flesh must be changed to a body of incorruption, and our "this mortal" (soul) must put on immortality. The "spiritual body" is our "image of the heavenly" Paul spoke of. It is that "spirit" part of Eccl.12 that goes back to God at flesh death. It dwells inside our flesh body even now, it's our spirit inside our flesh. It is our person, our individual personality. In 2 Corinthians 5, Apostle Paul taught that if our flesh house were dissolved, we have another house not made with hands (i.e., not of flesh), eternal in the heavens. That's about our spiritual body that dwells inside our flesh body. When our flesh body dies, our spiritual body merely steps out of it.

'So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?'
(1 Corinthians 15:54-55)

OP:-
* The verses above show clearly that it is at the moment of our resurrection from the dead that death for us will be swallowed up in victory.
Not at the moment of our death, but at our resurrection from the dead, which is yet to come.

Hello @Davy,

Thank you for responding to the OP.

* However, 1 Corinthians 15:54 leaves no room for doubt or dispute as to when death is swallowed up in victory, it is when corruption shall put on incorruption and mortality put on immortality, and that takes place at the resurrection.

* Thank you for quoting from Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, which culminates in the words, 'Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it' - a very clear explanation of what happens at death. when the breath of life (ie., spirit) returns to God who gave it. God breathed into the nostrils of the first man, Adam, and he became a living soul, and when the breath returns to God again the man is no longer a living soul, but a dead soul. The soul being the whole man energised by life.

* There are some that say that the soul is immortal, but yet in Ezekiel it says that the soul that sinneth it shall die (Ezekiel 18:4 & 20), referring to the whole person.

* You have also referred to 2 Corinthians 5:1, but if you look on to 2 Corinthians 5:4, you will see the same expression used, as that of 1 Corinthians 54-55, which again brings us to the promise of resurrection :-

'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4-5)

'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.'
(1 Corinthians 15:22)

* The bodies we receive at resurrection will be of God's making and suited to the lives we will live in that life to come.

'But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?
and with what body do they come?
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain,
it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him,
and to every seed his own body.'
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men,
another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial:
but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.'
(1 Corinthians 15:35-40)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris