'Death is swallowed up in victory' -When?

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I go by what's written down in the Bible, not by anyone's interpretation. If the scriptures say God sent his Only Begotten Son to the world, that's what I believe it's what's written down.

God sent his Only Begotten Son to the world, that's what I believe is what's written down, too. Yet you don't believe God sent / gave His only, the God-only-begotten Son, God the Son?! What son was Jesus of God then, if He wasn't God's God-only-begotten Son, GOD the Son? Or can the olive tree bear figs, or the fig tree, olives? God-begotten is God, after born of a woman or before born of a woman.

 

[charity]

'And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.'
(Matthew 10:28)

Hello @Davy,

You mention the verse above in your previous entry, which I missed when I responded. This verse tells us that man can cause loss of the life of the body, but he cannot kill (ie., destroy) it permanently, Only God can do that.

By the way, 'the silver cord' of Ecclesiastes 12:6 that you also referred to, is figuratively referring to the spinal cord of the human body. 'the golden bowl' being the head or the skull.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Davy]

Hello Dave,

Thank you for responding to the OP.

* However, 1 Corinthians 15:54 leaves no room for doubt or dispute as to when death is swallowed up in victory, it is when corruption shall put on incorruption and mortality put on immortality, and that takes place at the resurrection.

I think you're missing the point of the raising of the dead to a body of incorruption, because the wicked dead get a resurrection too. The body of incorruption Paul spoke of is simply the "image of the heavenly", meaning of the heavenly dimension. When Jesus returns, the heavenly dimension is going to be revealed right here on earth. There won't be anyone in a flesh body anymore after His coming when God's consuming fire burns the elements off the surface of this earth. Yet not all the wicked will be destroyed then either.

In Rev.3, Jesus told one group of His elect that He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship at their feet. That can only occur during His future 1,000 years reign when His elect reigns with Him as promised. The fact that those wicked are still there, and still unsaved in that time, reveals those in a condemned state to damnation.

Apostle Paul actually taught this when he gave 4 different Greek words to describe 2 different conditions of the soul in that future Millennial time.

1 Cor 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 that BOTH resurrection types occur on the day of His coming. You are not accounting for the "resurrection of damnation" He mentioned there for that day, I do.

In the 1 Cor.15:51 verse, Paul said we shall ALL be changed. That doesn't just apply only to those in Christ; the John 5:28-29 Scripture has to be kept in mind, including the Old Testament prophets like Zechariah who prophesied of the wicked still existing in
Christ's future time of reign at His return (Zech.14).

In the above 1 Cor.15:53 verse, Paul used 4 Greek words to shows 2 separates states, of which ONLY those in Christ will have both states...

1. "corruptible" (phthartos = decayed, perishable. A flesh body)
MUST PUT ON...
"incorruption" (aphthrsia = incorruptibility; unending existence. The spiritual body, the image of the heavenly.)

AND...

2. "this mortal" (thnetos = liable to die. A soul in a liable to perish condition.)
MUST PUT ON...
"immortality" (athanasia = deathlessness. The "resurrection of life" for those in Christ.)

For those of the "resurrection of damnation" that are raised on the day of Christ's 2nd coming also, they will only be raised to that no.1 condition. Their souls will still be in 'liable to die' state, subject to the "second death" of Revelation 20:14.

That shouldn't be difficult to understand, because our Lord Jesus and His Apostles showed the difference between the believer on Christ vs. the unbelieving that are still alive. The unsaved are treated as if they are spiritually 'dead' inside, even though their flesh is still alive living on the earth. It means their souls are still 'mortal' and subject to perish in the future lake of fire. Those will remain in that spiritually dead state after Jesus' coming, and throughout His 1,000 years reign. But what God's Word shows, is they too will be changed on the day of Jesus' coming, just not putting on "immortality" through Faith on Christ Jesus.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

nothing that we are able to do, through human logic and analytical study, but rather only by His Spirit.
Since understanding His words through His Spirit, really is the challenge, we must

There is nothing that Earburner is able to do through human logic and analytical study, what by his emotions and feelings which he confuses for the Holy Spirit of God?

 

[charity]

I think you're missing the point of the raising of the dead to a body of incorruption, because the wicked dead get a resurrection too. The body of incorruption Paul spoke of is simply the "image of the heavenly", meaning of the heavenly dimension. When Jesus returns, the heavenly dimension is going to be revealed right here on earth. There won't be anyone in a flesh body anymore after His coming when God's consuming fire burns the elements off the surface of this earth. Yet not all the wicked will be destroyed then either.

In Rev.3, Jesus told one group of His elect that He will make those of the "synagogue of Satan" to come worship at their feet. That can only occur during His future 1,000 years reign when His elect reigns with Him as promised. The fact that those wicked are still there, and still unsaved in that time, reveals those in a condemned state to damnation.

Apostle Paul actually taught this when he gave 4 different Greek words to describe 2 different conditions of the soul in that future Millennial time.

1 Cor 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

Jesus showed in John 5:28-29 that BOTH resurrection types occur on the day of His coming. You are not accounting for the "resurrection of damnation" He mentioned there for that day, I do.

In the 1 Cor.15:51 verse, Paul said we shall ALL be changed. That doesn't just apply only to those in Christ; the John 5:28-29 Scripture has to be kept in mind, including the Old Testament prophets like Zechariah who prophesied of the wicked still existing in
Christ's future time of reign at His return (Zech.14).

In the above 1 Cor.15:53 verse, Paul used 4 Greek words to shows 2 separates states, of which ONLY those in Christ will have both states...

1. "corruptible" (phthartos = decayed, perishable. A flesh body)
MUST PUT ON...
"incorruption" (aphthrsia = incorruptibility; unending existence. The spiritual body, the image of the heavenly.)

AND...

2. "this mortal" (thnetos = liable to die. A soul in a liable to perish condition.)
MUST PUT ON...
"immortality" (athanasia = deathlessness. The "resurrection of life" for those in Christ.)

For those of the "resurrection of damnation" that are raised on the day of Christ's 2nd coming also, they will only be raised to that no.1 condition. Their souls will still be in 'liable to die' state, subject to the "second death" of Revelation 20:14.

That shouldn't be difficult to understand, because our Lord Jesus and His Apostles showed the difference between the believer on Christ vs. the unbelieving that are still alive. The unsaved are treated as if they are spiritually 'dead' inside, even though their flesh is still alive living on the earth. It means their souls are still 'mortal' and subject to perish in the future lake of fire. Those will remain in that spiritually dead state after Jesus' coming, and throughout His 1,000 years reign. But what God's Word shows, is they too will be changed on the day of Jesus' coming, just not putting on "immortality" through Faith on Christ Jesus.

Hello @Davy,

Thank you again, for your response,

In 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5 referred to, it was in reference to the believer that Paul spoke. The exchange of mortality for immortality and corruption for incorruption takes place at the resurrection, when the believer will be changed in a moment, in the twinkle of an eye. This is shown in the resurrection of both those who are asleep-in-Christ, and those believers who will remain alive at Christ's coming, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

There is a resurrection of both the Just and the unjust spoken of (Acts 24:15; John 11:24) and of a day when Christ will judge the secrets of men's hearts (Romans 2:6). There is a resurrection referred to which takes place prior to the 1000 year reign of the Overcomer with Christ (Revelation 20:5-6), and another after that period (Revelation 20:5). There is also the Great White Throne judgement which requires a resurrection (Revelation 20:11-13). I am not sure how these all fit in to the overall scheme of things. However, God does, and that is what matters.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Davy]

....
* Thank you for quoting from Ecclesiastes 12:5-7, which culminates in the words, 'Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it' - a very clear explanation of what happens at death. when the breath of life (ie., spirit) returns to God who gave it. God breathed into the nostrils of the first man, Adam, and he became a living soul, and when the breath returns to God again the man is no longer a living soul, but a dead soul. The soul being the whole man energised by life.

Yes, that Scripture clearly explains what happens at flesh death, but your interpretation does not.

Per Jesus in Matthew 10:28...

Matt 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
KJV

Jesus showed our soul continues to live if our flesh body is killed. That reveals the "spirit" of Eccl.12 INCLUDES our soul that goes back to God.

But what your interpretation shows is the old pagan belief of our spirit being like a drop of water going back to God as their Great Ocean idea. That means like a drop of water (one's spirit) being absorbed into the sea, losing its individuality. We do NOT lose our individual person at flesh death. Like Jesus showed, our 'soul' is not destroyed at flesh death, nor is the soul dependent on the existence of a flesh body. You should read 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:5-6 more closely, and believe what it says. Those "spirits in prison" were not demons, they were men born in the flesh that died.

* There are some that say that the soul is immortal, but yet in Ezekiel it says that the soul that sinneth it shall die (Ezekiel 18:4 & 20), referring to the whole person.

You need to update your understanding according to The NEW TESTAMENT, and quit dwelling on the Old Testament's limited detail about this matter, which is where the Jewish traditions have their root. That Ezekiel 18 Scripture is still in alignment with The New Testament about the soul continuing after flesh death (Matthew 10:28; Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man). Even the idea of eternal burning punishment is in alignment with what Jesus said about the continuation of the soul in Matthew 10:28.

When you say "the whole person", it sounds like you are still on that old Jewish belief that a soul can ONLY exist with a flesh body. By that you are following old Jewish traditions of men with a limited understanding in only the Old Testament. That is the only reason why you would reject the Matthew 10:28 Scripture about the continuance of the soul after flesh death.

* You have also referred to 2 Corinthians 5:1, but if you look on to 2 Corinthians 5:4, you will see the same expression used, as that of 1 Corinthians 54-55, which again brings us to the promise of resurrection :-

'For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
that mortality might be swallowed up of life.'
Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.'
(2 Corinthians 5:4-5)

And if you refer to the rest of 1 Cor.15, especially the 1 Corinthians 15:53 verse, in the Greek, you will discover Paul was talking about 2 different changes one in Christ must go through to have eternal Life through Him. The "resurrection of damnation" per John 5:28-29 reveals the wicked death are raised to a body of "incorruption" also on the day of Christ's coming. You have not even come close to understanding that. But if you go into the Greek of that verse, you might, because the "resurrection of damnation" will still have mortal souls subject to the "second death" of Revelation 20:14.

 

[Davy]

....
'For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.'
(1 Corinthians 15:22)

Let's not bypass that, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." You may not understand it, but that is comparing Paul's resurrection idea of "corruptible" putting on "incorruption". That applies to the "resurrection of damnation" also, otherwise theirs wouldn't be a 'resurrection'. It doesn't mean all are resurrected to be "in Christ", it simply means 'through' Christ ALL shall be made alive, not saved, but alive in the sense of a resurrection body. For believers on Christ they will be in the saved state, but not the wicked that are made alive too.

So is the John 5:28-29 "resurrection of damnation" not really a resurrection??

 

[Davy]

Hello @Davy,

Thank you again, for your response,

In 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5 referred to, it was in reference to the believer that Paul spoke. The exchange of mortality for immortality and corruption for incorruption takes place at the resurrection, when the believer will be changed in a moment, in the twinkle of an eye. This is shown in the resurrection of both those who are asleep-in-Christ, and those believers who will remain alive at Christ's coming, in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Yes, we both agree on that.

But what I'm trying to get you to recognize is that there will be a "resurrection of damnation" too, which is the idea of the wicked dead being made alive too by Christ at His coming, per John 5:28-29.

There is a resurrection of both the Just and the unjust, also a resurrection prior to the 1000 year reign of the Overcomer with Christ, and another after that period. There is also the Great White Throne judgement which requires a resurrection.

I know the idea of a resurrection of the wicked dead at the end of Christ's future 1,000 years reign is a popular Church tradition, but the John 5:28-29 Scripture shows a "resurrection of damnation" happens on the day of Christ's 2nd coming.

As for a resurrection of "the Overcomer" prior to the 1,000 years, no, I don't see that in God's written Word. The only resurrection shown prior to Christ's 2nd coming is the one that happened on the day of His death on the cross (Matthew 27:50-53). One could say that resurrection of the saints on the day of Christ's crucifixion was the 1 Peter 3 event when Jesus went to the "spirits in prison" and preached The Gospel to them and led those who believed out of that prison house in the heavenly dimension.

 

[charity]

Let's not bypass that, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." You may not understand it, but that is comparing Paul's resurrection idea of "corruptible" putting on "incorruption". That applies to the "resurrection of damnation" also, otherwise theirs wouldn't be a 'resurrection'. It doesn't mean all are resurrected to be "in Christ", it simply means 'through' Christ ALL shall be made alive, not saved, but alive in the sense of a resurrection body. For believers on Christ they will be in the saved state, but not the wicked that are made alive too.

So is the John 5:28-29 "resurrection of damnation" not really a resurrection??

Hello @Davy,

'And hath given Him authority to execute judgement also,
because He is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.'
(John 5:27-29)

* This is the resurrection of the just and the unjust yes.

'For since by man came death,
by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die,
even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.'
(1 Corinthians 15:21-23)

* Only they that are Christ's - at His coming. Those who are 'in Christ' will be made alive, not those who are still 'in Adam'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Davy]

Hello @Davy,

'And hath given Him authority to execute judgement also,
because He is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming,
in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;
and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.'
(John 5:27-29)

* This is the resurrection of the just and the unjust yes.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

On the day of Christ's 2nd coming, right?

 

[charity]

On the day of Christ's 2nd coming, right?

Hello @Davy,

They that are Christ's will be resurrected at His coming. As described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.
I do not know when the resurrection of the just and the unjust will take place.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Earburner]

Well no, what He said to His disciples about touching Him as flesh and bone does not mean His resurrection body was 'still' a flesh and bone body of corruption. His flesh body was transfigured, it didn't see 'corruption':

No, i didn't change my mind! Jesus rose from His death/the grave into New Life, which was "flesh and bone", which was without blood, because it was shed from His wounds!!

Without blood, how then He could be alive, ...again?
Ans. He had NEW Life by the Spirit of God. He is a whole NEW Immortal creation, being the firstborn from the dead, without blood.

"Charity" explained it for you, please read it again!

 

[Davy]

No, i didn't change my mind! Jesus rose from His death/the grave into New Life, which was "flesh and bone", which was without blood, because it was shed from His wounds!!

Sorry brother, I cannot accept that Jesus bled out idea. And indeed His flesh body may have, but we aren't told that in God's Word.

The Acts 2:27 verse that The Father would not allow Christ's body to see corruption is all I need on that. It reveals Christ's flesh body was transfigured, which is how His resurrection body kept the marks of His crucifixion.

 

[charity]

(Replies #420, #422, #425, #429, #431)

These are my responses to @Davy, but our responses have been made so quickly,
that they have overlapped, and the discussion become confused in the process.

 

[Davy]

(Replies #420, #422, #425, #429, #431)

These are my responses to @Davy, but our responses have been made so quickly,
that they have overlapped, and the discussion become confused in the process.

Possibly. But I'm still trying to get you to look at what condition those of the "resurrection of damnation" will be in on they day of Christ's return to start His 1,000 years reign.

 

[charity]

Possibly. But I'm still trying to get you to look at what condition those of the "resurrection of damnation" will be in on they day of Christ's return to start His 1,000 years reign.

Hello @Davy,

Thank you for your response,

The 1,000 years is only a part of the reign of Christ though isn't it? The 1,000 years mark the length of time that the Overcomers and all who are found worthy will reign with Him. In Revelation 20:4-6, we are told of two resurrections, one which take place before the 1,000 years and one which comes after it.

'And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,
and shall reign with him a thousand years.,'
(Revelations 20:4)

* I know that there will be a resurrection of the just and of the unjust, but I believe that the Lord will first of all come back for His own, as promised by Him, in such verses as John 6:38-40.

* As the verses quoted above show there is more that one resurrection, and I am not sure where they all fit in (see reply #425).

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Earburner]

Sorry brother, I cannot accept that Jesus bled out idea. And indeed His flesh body may have, but we aren't told that in God's Word.

The Acts 2:27 verse that The Father would not allow Christ's body to see corruption is all I need on that. It reveals Christ's flesh body was transfigured, which is how His resurrection body kept the marks of His crucifixion.

Davy, go back and read the situation of Thomas. Jesus was resurrected into/with NEW Life!!
Are you saying that He lied, when He said that His body was flesh and bone?? I hope not!
Of course His body was thus, but without blood.

So I ask you, since blood is that which keeps our mortal flesh alive, what now was giving Life to Jesus, who HAD NO BLOOD?
Ans. The Spirit of God!!

In His NEW resurrection body, He is now both Flesh and Bone, PLUS God's Spirit, allowing Himself to appear physically, and at will, to also have the ability to be invisible, and walk through walls.

Mortal flesh and blood cannot inherit the KoG!
But, what is not said, andis shown, is that his Immortal flesh and bone plus God's Spirit DOES inherit the KoG.

 

[Earburner]

Possibly. But I'm still trying to get you to look at what condition those of the "resurrection of damnation" will be in on they day of Christ's return to start His 1,000 years reign.

Here is a problem that most Christians over look, neglect, refuse and even deny:
No person who has DIED the first death (dead to God, in sin, spiritually separated from God), but then DIES the natural physical death (cessation of life), HAS DIED THE second death. It is IMPOSSIBLE for God to resurrect them!
WHY?
Ans. They never came to God through Jesus, to receive the Holy Spirit of God, which IS THE vehicle of the Gift of Eternal Life!! They remain as "condemned already".
John 3:18.
God CANNOT resurrect anyone in which HE DOES NOT INDWELL!
Romans 8:8-9

 

[Earburner]

We all, who are "from beneath", are born as a living soul, breathing the oxygenated air for life, aka "the natural man". All of such are born without the Spirit of God, and therefore DO NOT have eternal existence of any kind.

 

[Earburner]

One cannot discern, comprehend or understand what the second death is, until they fully realize that Adam first DIED to God, and then later DIED the death of his natural self! When cessation of life comes, that is the second death!
We all are physically born separated from God, which is to say, we are without His Holy Spirit of Eternal Life.
That is our inheritance and judgment from God: "Thou shalt surely die", both spiritually and naturally.