Deception

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Davy

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These are NOT parables. No wonder you're reading them askew.

You mean the idea of a man travailing with child like a pregnant woman is not... a parable???

Jer 30:6-7
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
KJV



Definition of Parable, (Merriam-Webster):

Parable comes to us via Anglo-French from the Late Latin word parabola, which in turn comes from Greek parabolē, meaning "comparison."

It's doesn't always have to be used in a story like our Lord Jesus' parables in The Gospel Books.
 

Davy

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Now then, can anyone here understand the PARABLE presented in Isaiah 54:1 in conjunction with what Jesus said to the daughters of Jerusalem in Luke 23:27-30?
 

Naomi25

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666 is the number of unredeemed humanity - the mark of the beast is described as being placed on the right hand and forehead in order to illustrate slavery to sin - slaves in the Roman Empire were marked with numbers in the same way.

If you are looking for an unredeemed man to lead unredeemed humanity and deceive Christians, look no further than the White House. I am not kidding or being mean spirited here either - Wall Street represents worldliness and Trump is riding that beast like a boss.
So...you think Donald Trump is capable of being the most clever, deceptive, puppet master behind the great, that the world has ever seen? Don't most people think he isn't even smart enough to tie his shoelaces? :p
 

Naomi25

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You mean the idea of a man travailing with child like a pregnant woman is not... a parable???

Jer 30:6-7
6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
KJV



Definition of Parable, (Merriam-Webster):

Parable comes to us via Anglo-French from the Late Latin word parabola, which in turn comes from Greek parabolē, meaning "comparison."

It's doesn't always have to be used in a story like our Lord Jesus' parables in The Gospel Books.

It's swell you can work your Strongs. But when it comes to parables, it's more important to look at HOW they are used in scripture. In scripture a parable is used the setting of a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. An analogy, however, is a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
Is Jer 30 a story being told in attempt to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson (as we saw with Nathan, David and Bathsheba)? Or is God using an example...a comparison of being pregnant to clarify an idea? That idea being that men will groan and be in pain.
 
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Davy

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It's swell you can work your Strongs. But when it comes to parables, it's more important to look at HOW they are used in scripture. In scripture a parable is used the setting of a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson. An analogy, however, is a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
Is Jer 30 a story being told in attempt to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson (as we saw with Nathan, David and Bathsheba)? Or is God using an example...a comparison of being pregnant to clarify an idea? That idea being that men will groan and be in pain.

Just face it. You don't have a clue... of what the PARABLE in Isaiah 54:1 is about in connection with Jesus quoting it in Luke 23.
 

Naomi25

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Just face it. You don't have a clue... of what the PARABLE in Isaiah 54:1 is about in connection with Jesus quoting it in Luke 23.
Sure I do...please see previous posts. Just because I disagree with your interpretation heartily doesn't mean I'm scratching my head in perplexity.
 
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Davy

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It's swell you can work your Strongs. But when it comes to parables, it's more important to look at HOW they are used in scripture.

It's firstly important to understand the analogy in the parable. One can play semantics for a lifetime and still not understand the analogy comparison, which is probably your case, since you have yet to get to the 'meat' of it. Oh, sorry, that was an analogy too wasn't it, didn't mean to do that.
 

Davy

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"Doctrine of men". As opposed to the doctrine of God. And if it is not God's doctrine (ie, found in scripture), it is no better than the Pharisees...and we know what Jesus said about them. So...trying to dance around your terminology is not going to fly. You hold them in disdain.
Which is odd, because I'm unaware if you could be in every classroom, hearing what every lecturer taught. Or seeing what each leaving Pastor took away from it, and then began teaching to their flocks. Seems to me that you are making a broad, sweeping statement about all seminaries just because you feel something about them personally. Perhaps it's because Dispensationalism is on the wane, and is taught in a reduced number of schools? I would call that a biblical step in the right direction, myself.




"When the Jews were permitted to return and they built the Second Temple. The Temple was renovated a number of times until King Herod (who ruled between the years 37 BCE and 4 CE) decided to rebuild the Temple. He had a problem though – the Temple stood on the peak of a mountain where there was only limited space.
King Herod, who was known for his massive building projects, decided that he would build four huge supporting walls around the mountain peak and thus transform it into a great level platform. On this man-made platform he rebuilt the Temple. The Western Wall is actually a small part (about one-seventh) of one of the large supporting walls."

The Western Wall is the wall that was built so they could build the walls of the temple...in other words: a retaining wall. Saying part of the temple still exists because it does is like saying your house is still standing just because your fence is still up.

All that hot air and absolutely nothing... on the topic point, i.e., that HUGE STONES ARE STILL STANDING ATOP ONE ANOTHER TODAY ON THE TEMPLE MOUNT.

And that... still stands as proof that our Lord Jesus' prophecy about no stone on top of another there has yet... to be fulfilled.

Men's seminary doctrines of Preterism and Historicism cannot admit this, because they have to default to the stake their tether rope is tied to that they created for themselves.
 

Davy

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And yet, so much good comes out of them too. How much disservice, I wonder, are you doing to the honest, eager, young men who come out of seminaries and go on to join or plant churches and teach good, solid doctrine from their pulpits? I am only one small person in one small part of the world I can tell you of many.

You might be interested in John 19:39. Nicodemus, a Pharisee...the one who saught Christ at nighttime and had the converation about being 'born again'...at the time, he was confused, and we were left thinking he returned, unable to reconcile what Jesus told him. And yet in John 19:39 we see Nicodemus joins Josesph of Arimathea in buring Christ...he bout myrrh and aloe. Clearly not everyone was too afraid to stand for this 'Rabbi'.

I think as we get closer to the end we will see more and more people who are 'not in earnest' coming out of even Christian institutions. But we must not dismiss them just because of that. Still many good teachers and good students learn important things that they then go and share with the flock. And in these increasingly dark times, it is important that the flock know the word of God...it will be this, I think, that will protect them from the deceptions that will come.

I haven't dismissed anything. I have only addressed the same warnings our Lord Jesus gave His disciples about the leaven doctrines of men.

And your insinuation that I don't know there were believers on Christ among the Pharisees just shows how you plant your own thoughts into what others say.
 

aspen

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So...you think Donald Trump is capable of being the most clever, deceptive, puppet master behind the great, that the world has ever seen? Don't most people think he isn't even smart enough to tie his shoelaces? :p

I don’t think that is part of his resume laid out in the Bible
 

Davy

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Well, I...and most commentators...would disagree. I still find it endlessly amusing when I...an Amillennialist...end up arguing for the literal interpretation against people who call themself 'literalists'. Go figure.

There's your seminary learning example again, which is why I brought up what the seminaries can do in ruining a believer's understanding that God may had before given eyes to see, and ears to hear.

1. Saying "most commentators...would disagree" is a fallacious statement. It begs for unsubstantiated trust.

2. Relying on terms like Amillennialist and literalists still do not explain much of God's Holy Writ. They are just categories that men's doctrines use, like a pot to put things in that never gets full. For example, some of the ideas Futurists, Literalists, Historicists, Preterists, etc., believe, I also believe. But not everything. And depending on the subject at the moment, I might be labeled any one of those categories, but in reality much of what I understand from God's Word does not belong in ANY... of them, simply because no set of men's doctrines can create a monopoly on God's Word, nor understanding by The Holy Spirit.

Thus most of your remarks really don't go anywhere in edifying. They tend to stick to theories more than anything else.
 

Davy

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I would describe them more as prophecies rather than parables, right?

No, the Isaiah 54:1 example is a parable, because it is using an analogy to tell a story, and you have to understand the analogy in order to understand what is literal about it.

In Isaiah 54:1, we are told that the barren woman will have more children than the married wife. Barren means a womb that doesn't bare children.

1. We first have to understand the analogy about woman's womb given in the parable.

2. The woman whose womb is barren (without child) is to have more children than the married wife. This doesn't make sense if we try to understand it literally. Reason is because a barren woman doesn't have any children.

3. The married wife has less children than the barren woman. Again, this doesn't make sense literally, because the married wife having children is a natural state God created, and nothing bad about it, which is why we know God is giving a parable here, comparing things in analogy. So there's a Message kind of hidden within this.

4. Continuing into the next verses shows how the barren woman will have more children than the married wife, and the analogy then takes on a faithfulness Message. The barren woman (without child) suffered for a time, but eventually is relieved of her barren state, and the comparison is given in conjunction with Israel having to enlarge the symbolic tent to include believing Gentiles, pointing to Christ's Salvation in the future in the land, i.e., after His return.


So when we get to the New Testament passages like this, we know this is one of the places where our Lord Jesus and His Apostles were referencing about staying faithful... waiting on Jesus' return:

2 Cor 11:2-4
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

KJV

Paul there was warning about the "another Jesus" that some would preach, which was about Christ's warning in His Olivet discourse regarding the pseudo-Christ of Matthew 24:23-26 that is to come. We are to stay a symbolic 'chaste virgin' waiting on the True Jesus to return, and not fall away to the fake one that comes first.

Luke 21:22-23
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
KJV

The "days of vengeance" is about the end of this world when Jesus returns. It was foretold in Isaiah 61...

Isa 61:1-2
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

KJV

Everything in blue was about Christ's 1st coming to die on the cross. That He read from the Book of Isaiah to begin His Ministry per Luke 4. When He got to the part in green, He closed the Book. That part in green is the time of His future 2nd coming. This is something men's doctrines want to hide when they miss-teach Luke 21. Even that latter phrase in the Luke 21:22 verse about all things written being fulfilled ought to be a huge clue that Jesus was speaking of the end of this world, the day of His 2nd coming.

This idea of being 'with child' is linked to those who suffer that "wrath" there on the day of Christ's coming. What wrath is that?

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
KJV


Jesus is warning His Church still on earth there on the 6th Vial. He is still telling us to 'watch' (i.e., not be deceived by the false messiah). The next event is the battle of Armageddon on the day of His coming, the 7th Vial, and then per Rev.19, His cup of wrath is poured out upon the wicked, which is that 7th Vial.

In Luke 23, Jesus shows this 'with child' analogy de facto. While He is carrying His cross, women in Jerusalem watching Him are crying, and He turns to them and tells them to not weep for Him, but weep for themselves and for their children, because the day will come when those daughters of Jerusalem will say, "Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck." (Luke 23:29). Those deceived will be saying that after His return, and they will be saying it about the faithful who remained 'chaste virgins' with spiritual wombs that were not 'with child'.

So this idea here in Luke 21:22-23 is not about literal pregnant women fleeing a disaster, it's about spiritual harlots who are deceived and are spiritually with child, already married when Jesus comes, but not to Him, but to the pseudo-Messiah that comes first which our Lord Jesus warned us about (Matthew 24:23-26; Mark 13; 2 Thessalonians 2; Revelation 13:11 forward).

One more example... of the barren vs. married wife parable in Isaiah 54...

Rev 18:7
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, "I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow."
KJV


That's about the Babylon harlot of Revelation, for the end of this world. She says she sits as a queen, and is not a widow.

That idea is about Jerusalem. God married Jerusalem per Ezekiel 16, spiritually. So this is about fallen Jerusalem as the Babylon harlot in the last days just before Jesus returns. Jerusalem in the Isaiah 54 parable is considered to be in widowhood until God literally returns for the future Marriage of Revelation. However here... the "great city", the Babylon harlot, instead says she is already married, and is not a widow! So who at that time would she be married to, because Jesus has not returned yet at that point? Who is coming to be her false husband in God's place??? The Antichrist, the dragon, the another beast, the pseudo-Christ, the little horn, the vile person, son of perdition, man of sin, that Wicked, etc., he has many names.

So the Isaiah 54 parable is not applied only to Christ's Faithful whose spiritual wombs remain barren, waiting on His return, but it is also applied to the deceived and even Jerusalem itself, as being already spiritually married to the wrong one.
 
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Jay Ross

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So...you think Donald Trump is capable of being the most clever, deceptive, puppet master behind the great, that the world has ever seen? Don't most people think he isn't even smart enough to tie his shoelaces? :p

I thought that was why Aussies wear thongs, i.e. flipflops for the Americans among us who base their understandings on sound bytes. :p
 

Naomi25

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It's firstly important to understand the analogy in the parable. One can play semantics for a lifetime and still not understand the analogy comparison, which is probably your case, since you have yet to get to the 'meat' of it. Oh, sorry, that was an analogy too wasn't it, didn't mean to do that.
:rolleyes: Still doesn't make them parables. You can wish it and say it as much as you like. But biblical context stands against you. Actually...I'd say the 'meat' of the text stands against you too.
But whatever. I'm done discussing it with you...if we cannot agree on how to read it, we most certainly won't come to any agreement over what is said in the text...in which case there is no point continuing.
 

Naomi25

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All that hot air and absolutely nothing... on the topic point, i.e., that HUGE STONES ARE STILL STANDING ATOP ONE ANOTHER TODAY ON THE TEMPLE MOUNT.

And that... still stands as proof that our Lord Jesus' prophecy about no stone on top of another there has yet... to be fulfilled.

Men's seminary doctrines of Preterism and Historicism cannot admit this, because they have to default to the stake their tether rope is tied to that they created for themselves.
Oh, for the love of....:rolleyes:
Let's walk through "retaining wall" again, shall we?
When someone builds a house on a sloping hillside, retaining walls are installed around the site to level the ground. They are not part of the house at all. In fact, they actually become part of the garden, but are still necessary before the house can be built.
Let's say the house is then burnt down. To the ground.
Would you then point to your nice, handy, garden retaining wall and say "Ha! My house still stands!"
No...because you are not an idiot.
 

Naomi25

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I haven't dismissed anything. I have only addressed the same warnings our Lord Jesus gave His disciples about the leaven doctrines of men.

And your insinuation that I don't know there were believers on Christ among the Pharisees just shows how you plant your own thoughts into what others say.
Oh, seriously? Nice attempt to throw that all back on me. You diss seminaries as little factories churning out false doctrines and made a point highlighting how the people coming out of them, like some of the Pharisees, were too afraid to 'go against the status quo' to preach the truth.

All I did was use the example of Nicodemus to point out that not everyone falls into that category. That is in no way "planting thoughts into what you say". It was simply using a biblical example to prove a point.
 

Naomi25

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There's your seminary learning example again, which is why I brought up what the seminaries can do in ruining a believer's understanding that God may had before given eyes to see, and ears to hear.

1. Saying "most commentators...would disagree" is a fallacious statement. It begs for unsubstantiated trust.

2. Relying on terms like Amillennialist and literalists still do not explain much of God's Holy Writ. They are just categories that men's doctrines use, like a pot to put things in that never gets full. For example, some of the ideas Futurists, Literalists, Historicists, Preterists, etc., believe, I also believe. But not everything. And depending on the subject at the moment, I might be labeled any one of those categories, but in reality much of what I understand from God's Word does not belong in ANY... of them, simply because no set of men's doctrines can create a monopoly on God's Word, nor understanding by The Holy Spirit.

Thus most of your remarks really don't go anywhere in edifying. They tend to stick to theories more than anything else.

Why do you assume I've BEEN to seminary? What I've learned, I've done so by extensive reading, listening and studying on my own.
And yet, even avoiding these horrible places of "mens doctrines", I still think you're dead wrong. How about that?
 

Naomi25

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I thought that was why Aussies wear thongs, i.e. flipflops for the Americans among us who base their understandings on sound bytes. :p
Ah yes, thongs are a treasure. I wonder if there is an Australian home without a pair? Maybe we could send Trump a pair to wear with his suits? Hmmm....but he'd still have to figure out his tie....
Actually...I don't think he's that dumb! Not the greatest person in the world, probably not the best President...but by golly better than the alternative...
 

Jay Ross

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Ah yes, thongs are a treasure. I wonder if there is an Australian home without a pair? Maybe we could send Trump a pair to wear with his suits? Hmmm....but he'd still have to figure out his tie....
Actually...I don't think he's that dumb! Not the greatest person in the world, probably not the best President...but by golly better than the alternative...

Naomi we have our own clowns to vote for soon and as such, we should let the people of the USA worry about why they never voted at all in their elections of their officials.

At least here we are all forced to put the candidates in the preference order of doing the least damage to the country.

In this country, political expedience is just another name for corruption by definition.