Defending the Trinity

[shturt678]

You are confused...

The weakness is speaking of the previous high priests.

I have a complete understanding as Jesus was fully man as well as fully God.

Your theology is flawed as it only looks to the aspect of the humanity of Jesus. You explain nothing Trinitarian theology does not already comprehend.

We admit Jesus learned, was made complete (perfect), and all the rest of the aspects of His humanity. For us it is not an either God worldview or man worldview when looking at the person of Christ as it is for you, it is both God and man.

Both God and man united at conception!

Excellent representation of the Word of God!

Old Jack

You did it again Justaname!

For though Jesus was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him (who was weak), but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.2 Corinthians 13:4

Have you noticed almost every time you post you are misrepresenting the Word of God? Does this concern you at all? A little fearful consideration of your foundation and how shaky it appears to be right now.

Lets look at Heb 8:3 shall we?

What did Jesus "offer" that God Himself could never offer?

Heb 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. So this one (man=Jesus) too had to have something to offer.

Thank you again for caring!

Let's eyeball Heb.8:3 together although all Greek to me. :unsure: On o prosenegke "which he may offer" (subjunctive whereas the classics use the future; it has a mixture of a relative and an indirect deliberative question (still basic 2nd semester stuff): "what he has to offer" and "what has he to offer?" :huh:

This aorist subjunctive is as future in meaning as a present subjunctive would be. The only difference is this: the aorist is punctiliar, and thus fits ONE act of offering on Jesus' part; a present subjunctive would be iterative present infinitive, correct?

Old Jack

 

[Purity]

You are confused...

The weakness is speaking of the previous high priests.

I have a complete understanding as Jesus was fully man as well as fully God.

Your theology is flawed as it only looks to the aspect of the humanity of Jesus. You explain nothing Trinitarian theology does not already comprehend.

We admit Jesus learned, was made complete (perfect), and all the rest of the aspects of His humanity. For us it is not an either God worldview or man worldview when looking at the person of Christ as it is for you, it is both God and man.

Both God and man united at conception!

Excellent representation of the Word of God!

Old Jack

You did it again Justaname!

For though Jesus was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him (who was weak), but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.2 Corinthians 13:4

Have you noticed almost every time you post you are misrepresenting the Word of God? Does this concern you at all? A little fearful consideration of your foundation and how shaky it appears to be right now.

Lets look at Heb 8:3 shall we?

What did Jesus "offer" that God Himself could never offer?

Heb 8:3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. So this one (man=Jesus) too had to have something to offer.

Thank you again for caring!

Let's eyeball Heb.8:3 together although all Greek to me. :unsure: On o prosenegke "which he may offer" (subjunctive whereas the classics use the future; it has a mixture of a relative and an indirect deliberative question (still basic 2nd semester stuff): "what he has to offer" and "what has he to offer?" :huh:

This aorist subjunctive is as future in meaning as a present subjunctive would be. The only difference is this: the aorist is punctiliar, and thus fits ONE act of offering on Jesus' part; a present subjunctive would be iterative present infinitive, correct?

Old Jack

Yes, so what was the offering which God could not make but Jesus could?

 

[Purity]

Highlights:

What Wormwood doesn't understand is Yahweh has no beginning nor ending, His manifestation in man has.

The Masters role:

(1) sacrifice for sin
(2) priest
(3) redeemer
(4) divinely anointed king in King David’s family line.

The Bible both NT and OT speak of a Jewish Messiah who incorporates all four roles simultaneously, none of which requires him to be God, and two (sacrifice for sin and descendent of King David) requiring he is not God.

A note to the Trinitarians - you will have seen so far in all our deliberations a failure to respond to these Scriptural arguments - why so? Why when sound Bible reasoning is put forward is there no rebuttal?

I suggest the only reason I perceive thus far is there are none to be found.

Truth has been revealed and rejected

Purity

This Christology was larger unknown to Wormwood & Floyd:

The "first Adam" and "last Adam" referring to the one who is "firstborn" not just by his birth, but by his special selection by his Father, and especially by his overcoming of sin and death.

Thank you for your response and successful refute, ie, good job!

No excuses, ie, I watered down this Ps.22:10, etc. and stand successfully refuted! Which likewise accords with the picture of Christ.

Thank you again,

Eating 'humble pie' at this moment,

Old Jack

btw am an old man and have erratic heart beats at times, and this post generated a few extra beats, however I handled, ie, good job without condescending.

Em whether Old Jack's opinion or not, eternally begotten means no single comprehensive thingy at all, in nothead's humble opinion. Since nothing under the sun is actually ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN, or even a pup who won't come out of it's mother's eternally thrashing throes of birth...

"Eternally begotten" just means a construct made rationally in order to explain how Jesus as eternally God could then be born by God. NOT in Bible and certainly not comprehensible.

Only another incomprehensibility added to another incomprehensibility (Trinity).

And the main reason why 1 Jn 5 Comma Johanneum is an insert is that it was never quoted during the Sabellian/Homoousian controversies.

Wormwood never proved this...

Can you provide a Bible passage that teaches to the nature of Christ being divine and mortal? What you are suggesting is a man who is made of sinful flesh but simultaneously clothed with divine nature.

1. Jesus points to his eternal pre-existence in John 8:56-59.

We proved how the Logos existed which spoke of Jesus before Abraham as per John 1:1 and this was further proved by Abraham looking forward to seeing Christs day.

2. There are numerous texts which point to the deity of Jesus. Col. 2:9 declares that the "fullness of God" dwelt in Jesus. Philippians 2:6 says that Jesus existed in the form of God and possessed "equality" with God.

Here Wormwood was taught how God fullness was placed in the Son by an inheritance and not his possession prior to his birth - he also learned how the Son who made himself a servant of no reputation was in status and position before his Father and not in nature. Wormwood failed to prove hypostasis on all counts. In fact I do believe he was taught the true context of Pauls letter to the Philippians being one of servitude and humility before a single all powerful God. In status it was also proved by Nothead that the Son is subordinate to the Father even in his exalted state.

3. Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are used in a formula many times in the Bible and in differing orders. Moreover, the "name" not "names" of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit referenced which unites the three into one heading. See Matthew 28:19; 2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Cor. 12:4-6; Eph. 4:4-6)

Does the word "formula" concern you somewhat? sounds like a potion or something devised behind closed doors.

I had to chime in here and let you all know what I believe the Word of God says about God (haha kind of a funny way of saying it... )-

The Trinity is false due to the fact God can’t DIE. Why? God does not changePsalm 90:2, Malachi 3:6)! There is no “hypostatic union” with God. The scriptures are simple really. Men have used their carnal minds (“theology”) to make them difficult.

God is invisible, God is Spirit, in no way does scripture tell us He is man. Jesus was the Word of God (John1:1). The Word (the Logos or Spokesman of God) was the firstborn of all creation. He created everything

Jojo slipped under the radar and their chiming in to remind all that God cannot die was appropriate. Yes a great deal of carnality has gone on behind closed doors - I believe they are called councils.

 

[nothead]

Purity read scripture with me...

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word became flesh, and cdwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

You have an incorrect understanding of scripture. Your indoctrination into your cult has blinded your eyes to the plain reading of scripture.

I will continue to pray for you.

You are assuming the John prologue passage is speaking of God with, at, to, toward or face-to-face with God. This isn't the way John thought.

In other words this interpretation is impossible. Without a hypostatic union of sorts, God with God simply harbors NO PLACE in the Bible.

 

[Purity]

You are assuming the John prologue passage is speaking of God with, at, to, toward or face-to-face with God. This isn't the way John thought.

In other words this interpretation is impossible. Without a hypostatic union of sorts, God with God simply harbors NO PLACE in the Bible.

Nothead

As you know all this would be resolved if they understood the Righteousness of God.

Its that simple.

 

[justaname]

You are assuming the John prologue passage is speaking of God with, at, to, toward or face-to-face with God. This isn't the way John thought.

In other words this interpretation is impossible. Without a hypostatic union of sorts, God with God simply harbors NO PLACE in the Bible.

Let Us create him in Our image...

Case in point disproving your imaginations.

 

[shturt678]

Yes, so what was the offering which God could not make but Jesus couThld?

Thank you for your response!

"One" offering of Jesus, made "once for all," has been explained already in Heb.7:27: "this he made once for all by offering of Himself" (aorist).

Old Jack's opinion

You are assuming the John prologue passage is speaking of God with, at, to, toward or face-to-face with God. This isn't the way John thought.

In other words this interpretation is impossible. Without a hypostatic union of sorts, God with God simply harbors NO PLACE in the Bible.

Thank you for your caring!

Not so much a hypostatic union of sorts, however a realiter comports perfectly at Heb.1:3.

Old Jack's opinion

 

[Purity]

Thank you for your response!

"One" offering of Jesus, made "once for all," has been explained already in Heb.7:27: "this he made once for all by offering of Himself" (aorist).

Old Jack's opinion

Not an opinion Old Jack - A truth!

Now can you explain how God Himself can be a sin offering?
How can God be the One reconciling mankind to Himself and simultaneously be a sacrifice for sin?

Don't forget your Scriptural quotes - you know how I love them so....

Thank you for your caring!

Not so much a hypostatic union of sorts, however a realiter comports perfectly at Heb.1:3.

Old Jack's opinion

This will get wormwoods attention - a Trinitarian steeping out from hypostatic union to something of sorts?

Do tell.

 

[shturt678]

Not an opinion Old Jack - A truth!

Now can you explain how God Himself can be a sin offering?
How can God be the One reconciling mankind to Himself and simultaneously be a sacrifice for sin?

Don't forget your Scriptural quotes - you know how I love them so....


This will get wormwoods attention - a Trinitarian steeping out from hypostatic union to something of sorts?

Do tell.

Thank you for your response and caring!

Gave a detailed response and must have been good as couldn't post it out, ie, "error"? I've been using Acts3:13, etc. for decades along with Isa. chapters 40-66 for decades without much success.

Also Heb.1:3, hypostais (separate both God and man), and my view of realiter (united both God and man at conception) for decades with some success once in a great while.

Let me see if can ship this post out?

Old 'telling' and making the devil mad, Jack

 

[Purity]

I've been using Acts3:13, etc. for decades along with Isa. chapters 40-66 for decades without much success.

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,34 the God of our forefathers,35 has glorified36 his servant37 Jesus, whom you handed over and rejected38 in the presence of Pilate after he had decided39 to release him. NET

So you use this verse to prove the Trinity?

 

[DanielGarneau]

Hello,

As a new Christian from 1977 to 1980 I was exposed to the Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) teaching that Jesus could not be God because he said there were some things only his Father knew. JW also pointed to other verses where Jesus' humanity was at the forefront. I came to a point where I no longer knew what to think on this issue, and felt I did not know to whom I should pray anymore. If Christ was not God I was an idolator for praying to Him. If Christ was God, then not praying to Him was a major spiritual problem also. So, for two years I read through the Bible with that question in mind.

As I read through the Bible, my focus was "Is Jesus God?" or "Is Jesus not God?" Several verses convinced me that Jesus is God, for example: Isaiah 9:6 which in NIV (2011) reads : "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this."

So, in discussing the nature of God, whatever else that is said must take into account that Jesus is God, such as Thomas recognized and Jesus affirmed in John 20:28-29, again quoting from my NIV (2011) : "Thomas said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed' ".

In Christ our Risen Lord and Saviour,

Daniel Garneau
from Quebec, Canada

 

[Purity]

Greetings Daniel,

I suggest you read through the posts to familiarise yourself with the argument's and why it is that Nothead and I believe emphatically that Jesus is not God nor indeed can he be.

In the Masters Service
Purity

 

[DanielGarneau]

Hello Purity,

I did read carefully postings 1 to 15 and then browsed through to posting 30 before posting my own #511 just above, quoting two of the many passages of Scritpures that should not be argued away, not on the basis of logical, philosophical or theological arguments of any sort.

May the Spirit of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:17) bless you with all of His might,

Daniel Garneau

 

[nothead]

Hello,

As a new Christian from 1977 to 1980 I was exposed to the Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) teaching that Jesus could not be God because he said there were some things only his Father knew. JW also pointed to other verses where Jesus' humanity was at the forefront. I came to a point where I no longer knew what to think on this issue, and felt I did not know to whom I should pray anymore. If Christ was not God I was an idolator for praying to Him. If Christ was God, then not praying to Him was a major spiritual problem also. So, for two years I read through the Bible with that question in mind.

Praying to Jesus is not idolatry, since the precedent is set, by Stephen in Acts, Paul speaking to him on the Road to Damascus, etc.

Praying to Jesus AS GOD is idolatry.

As I read through the Bible, my focus was "Is Jesus God?" or "Is Jesus not God?" Several verses convinced me that Jesus is God, for example: Isaiah 9:6 which in NIV (2011) reads : "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this."

Of course if you WANT to see Jesus as God you will see Jesus as God. Same for Hirohito, and Caesar, not in that order. Assuming you lived a long life that is...

Most compelling reasons NOT to see Jesus as God:

1) The Shema says God is One numerically
2) The First Command of the Ten say to have no other elohim before the One True God, YHWH Elohim
3) 11,000 singular verbs and pronouns attendant to the One True God
4) Jesus never says outright he is God
5) No emphatic statement of faith in the NT says Jesus is God. (Thomas' exclamation in context: Jesus is 'elohim' resurrected and a heavenly being, even over the angels, Thomas would come to believe...) "Elohim" is then translated 'God' just as it is in Psalm 82. "Elohim" to 'gods.'
6) 71 verses which state Jesus is Lord in juxtaposition with God in the same verse

So, in discussing the nature of God, whatever else that is said must take into account that Jesus is God, such as Thomas recognized and Jesus affirmed in John 20:28-29, again quoting from my NIV (2011) : "Thomas said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, 'Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed' ".

I was blessed with the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the eighties. I believed very much wanted to believe in Jesus in all of his glory.

I have come to believe this glory comes from his Father and goes back to Him. No one is GOOD in the positive sense as God is.

 

[shturt678]

Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,34 the God of our forefathers,35 has glorified36 his servant37 Jesus, whom you handed over and rejected38 in the presence of Pilate after he had decided39 to release him. NET

So you use this verse to prove the Trinity?

Thank you again for your response!

Acts3:13, "....glorified His Servant Jesus.....Holy and Righteous One..." Again this is the great Ebed YHWH of Isaiah, Chapters 40-66.

For in His nature God cannot die (Jesus); but now that God and man are united in one Person (Heb.1:3), it's correctly called God's death when the man dies who is one thing or one Person with God. I'm a Chemnitz' Concordia Triglotta, 1029, etc. [Book of Concord]

Old Jack

 

[Purity]

Thank you again for your response!

Acts3:13, "....glorified His Servant Jesus.....Holy and Righteous One..." Again this is the great Ebed YHWH of Isaiah, Chapters 40-66.

For in His nature God cannot die (Jesus); but now that God and man are united in one Person (Heb.1:3), it's correctly called God's death when the man dies who is one thing or one Person with God. I'm a Chemnitz' Concordia Triglotta, 1029, etc. [Book of Concord]

Old Jack

Old Jack...been a sea too long!
Got the crazies maybe you should take a tablet?
Where does it say God and man united? From Heb 1:3
God's death - are you mad - I must assume so - deluded at least.
I am a Christian; A brother in Christ (The Holy Bible is my source of wisdom)

It appears your journey originated in the Apostles creeds ---> Nicene Creeds - - - > Athanasian Creed followed by all the Lutheran Creeds.

Your wasting your time speaking with someone who holds the original Gospel best you find all those others who are out at sea

God bless.

 

[JoJoRoss]

shturt678, on 08 May 2014 - 3:29 PM, said:

Thank you again for your response!

Acts3:13, "....glorified His Servant Jesus.....Holy and Righteous One..." Again this is the great Ebed YHWH of Isaiah, Chapters 40-66.

For in His nature God cannot die (Jesus); but now that God and man are united in one Person (Heb.1:3), it's correctly called God's death when the man dies who is one thing or one Person with God. I'm a Chemnitz' Concordia Triglotta, 1029, etc. [Book of Concord]

Old Jack

Old Jack...been a sea too long!
Got the crazies maybe you should take a tablet?
Where does it say God and man united? From Heb 1:3
God's death - are you mad - I must assume so - deluded at least.
I am a Christian; A brother in Christ (The Holy Bible is my source of wisdom)

It appears your journey originated in the Apostles creeds ---> Nicene Creeds - - - > Athanasian Creed followed by all the Lutheran Creeds.

Your wasting your time speaking with someone who holds the original Gospel best you find all those others who are out at sea

God bless.

Heb 1:3(YLT)-who being the brightness of the glory, and the impress of His subsistence, bearing up also the all things by the saying of his might -- through himself having made a cleansing of our sins, sat down at the right hand of the greatness in the highest,

Heb 1:3(CLNT)-Who, being the Effulgence of His glory and Emblem of His assumption, besides carrying on all by His powerful declaration, making a cleansing of sins, is seated at the right hand of the Majesty in the heights;

From these two translations, what I can see is Christ being an impression, Emblem of God the Father, not the Father Himself. AND we can see that Jesus sits at the right hand of God the Father. Let the Word of God cut like a sword!


Gods Peace,
JoJo

 

[Purity]

JoJo
Thanks for your post but sadly we have been over this ground a number of times in this debate and it appears the Trinitarians will not remove their trifocals.
If only they knew what was a stake.
Purity

p.s

Check out Randor rant below - he thinks one needs to be born of the Spirit before they can understand (ha) what a joke!

 

[RANDOR]

First and foremost...when you meet Jesus personally.......Then and only then will the scriptures have their true meaning.

So.if ya haven't been born of the spirit...........scritpures can make only the sense you give them.

You can study God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit your entire life........memorize all the scriptures..hey memorize the entire book if ya want to....

BUT!!!!!!!!!!! if ya don't have a personal relationship with Christ.......what good is it.?
Might as well memorize Moby Dick


Depart from me.......I never knew you

 

[Purity]

First and foremost...when you meet Jesus personally.......Then and only then will the scriptures have their true meaning.

So.if ya haven't been born of the spirit...........scritpures can make only the sense you give them.

You can study God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit your entire life........memorize all the scriptures..hey memorize the entire book if ya want to....

BUT!!!!!!!!!!! if ya don't have a personal relationship with Christ.......what good is it.?
Might as well memorize Moby Dick


Depart from me.......I never knew you

Yes and...? what does this have to do with the OP?