Did God Forsake Jesus?

[bbyrd009]

Willie T likes it....but willie T keeps his mouth shut.

Stranger

? there are no personal attacks in the post, Stranger, and there are none meant, ok?
you don't have to address the points if you don't want to, either, ok; your (lack of) conviction has now been noted

 

[Stranger]

? there are no personal attacks in the post, Stranger, and there are none meant, ok?
you don't have to address the points if you don't want to, either, ok; your (lack of) conviction has now been noted

Oh my. Were your feelings hurt? Really breaks me up.

I didn't say any 'personal attack' was given. If you think because I object to Willie not responding is a personal attack, then you and Willie need to leave. That I require of him to answer is not a personal attack.

I did address the points. Willie didn't, even after his comments. So, make sure you address each of my statements with a separate post so as to increase your post count, which for some reason, you think it makes you look so superior. When in actuality, it makes you look just as foolish as the things you post.

Stranger

 

[brakelite]

yes, i am fam with the common (logical) interpretation,

LOL. My understanding of the Godhead may be logical in my own mind, but far from in others...it most certainly is not common.
When Jesus asked "whom do you say that I am", Peter's answer, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God", needed to be a revelation. Most accept He was a son of man, and yes, Jesus identified Himself as man often, I presume to ensure our acceptance of the unity with humanity that He established. As you said though, while claiming divinity, and never denying it when recognised by others, Jesus still spoke of the Father as His God. Which begs the question...was He confessing the Father as His God only in HIs humanity, or as the divine Son?

 

[APAK]

@Willie T ..my input on your thread

Jesus felt the presence and ’FULL’ power of his Father immediately after his own baptism. He spent 3 years becoming comfortable with his Father’s power inside him as he literally spoke to him to the cross, besides performing all the miracles and such, that the son of man could not do alone. Jesus needed this ‘full’ power of his Father to complete his mission. He was only a man with the spirit of God within him from birth as the first and only born believer.

Jesus felt his Father’s power in action for 3 years! Jesus was like a superman.

Now minutes before his death, the mental and inner power of his Father was withdrawn, deliberately. Jesus was as before his baptism, without the ‘full’ power of his Father. It was gone! And it was not needed anymore! The Father was faithful and did his part in the plan of salvation. Jesus had to die as a 100% human being, for his Father to accept him as the perfect sacrifice for mankind. If the Father stayed, the sacrifice would not be perfect and acceptable. There were no shortcuts taken. Jesus dies as any man on a cross, alone.

Jesus cried out with the words of being forsaken by his Father (God), as any human being would do when the most powerful force by his Father was SUDDENLY GONE. He felt abandoned by his Father for that short time. He could not understand why his Father would leave him after 3 years, at a time when he thought he should still be there through to his death. As a human being upon death he felt abandoned, alone and weak in hopelessness. This is the reason why Jesus cried out for his God rather that his Father. Jesus felt distanced and abandoned by his Father and begged then to his formal title, God (YHWH), showing reverence to him and considering himself nothing special, as only a dying human being wanting comfort.

The Father never forsaken (left Jesus’ spirit/heart) Jesus as many think; even Jesus did for a moment out of sheer weakness and helpless ness. And It had nothing to do with some mysterious sin theory; that says God could not ’look’ at sin because he was perfect. It had everything to do with Jesus dying as a human being, losing his Father’s presence and then releasing his spirit into the hands of his Father. It had to be done this way as per the Fathers’ desire for payment of sin for all mankind.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

LOL. My understanding of the Godhead may be logical in my own mind, but far from in others...it most certainly is not common.

ah well i didn't mean that the pov is necessarily bad, just what pretty much everyone in the world accepts at face value, more or less. Nehushtan was set up as a savior too, so imo it cannot rightly be called "evil," we could ask why it was still even around, or why the priests had not already broken it up maybe, but imo that would be avoiding the point i guess

As you said though, while claiming divinity, and never denying it when recognised by others, Jesus still spoke of the Father as His God.

Did He? I'm finding one other place Jesus referred to God as "God," and the circumstances there, the syntax, kinda put that in a certain way too imo, Looking at them, Jesus said, "With men it is impossible, but not with God, because all things are possible with God." Where it might be seen that again Jesus is speaking from or to a certain perspective?

 

[bbyrd009]

Which begs the question...was He confessing the Father as His God only in HIs humanity, or as the divine Son?

ah, that's a good one, i suggest some other Qs are being begged also, but maybe a good way to approach the "forsaken" statement is to recognize Christ speaking as a human there, might be the way to put it

 

[brakelite]

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus was not telling Mary to speak literally word for word in order to be professing her God and your God to the other disciples. After all, it wasn't her saying that she was ascending to her Father. Jesus was saying here, I am ascending to my Father and to My God. Tell this to the others. Jesus, even now risen and glorified, was confessing that He had a God, and that this God was His Father. This places a whole new light I believe on the Godhead and the traditional Trinitarian concept. But hey, like I said, my views on the Godhead to me are logical, but not common.

 

[brakelite]

Then compare the above with John 17:3

 

[bbyrd009]

the Fathers’ desire for payment of sin for all mankind.

According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it was advantageous that one man should die for the people.

imo you will not be able to find a Quote for that, only allusions; no Son of Man may die for another's sins
God is Love; God forgives. Just like human parents do their children. The Father's desire for the payment of sin is a myth propagated by bloodthirsty ppl, not God
imo

 

[bbyrd009]

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Jesus was not telling Mary to speak literally word for word in order to be professing her God and your God to the other disciples. After all, it wasn't her saying that she was ascending to her Father. Jesus was saying here, I am ascending to my Father and to My God. Tell this to the others. Jesus, even now risen and glorified, was confessing that He had a God, and that this God was His Father. This places a whole new light I believe on the Godhead and the traditional Trinitarian concept. But hey, like I said, my views on the Godhead to me are logical, but not common.

not quite sure what you mean by the bolded, can you rephrase there? ty
the "doctrine" of Trinity has always been heresy imo, so maybe i'm reading you wrong there

 

[APAK]

According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it was advantageous that one man should die for the people.

imo you will not be able to find a Quote for that, only allusions; no Son of Man may die for another's sins
God is Love; God forgives. Just like human parents do their children. The Father's desire for the payment of sin is a myth propagated by bloodthirsty ppl, not God
imo

bbyrd009:

Caiaphas, the high priest knew the real threat Jesus posed to his power and livelihood, and religion. Out of fear based also on correctly prophesizing that one man would shed his blood for the nation, he what from thence forth bent of Jesus’ crucifixion. One point here, Caiaphas never believed in his prophecy from the view of salvation. He just came him belief in his already selfish motives get rid of Jesus. He deliberately only saw that his own needs would be met. He was never accredited with righteousness.

Caiaphas was instrumental in the death of Jesus, not for or that the sins of the people would be forgiven, but to appease the local people themselves and the Romans ensuring a rebellion would not break out. He looks at Jesus as an expediate scapegoat and the way kill two birds with one stone (maintain power and keep peace and to get rid of Jesus once and for all).

(John 11:49-53)

(Joh 11:47) The chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said: What will we do? For this man does many miracles.
(Joh 11:48) If we leave him alone, all men will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.
(Joh 11:49) But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them: You know nothing at all,
(Joh 11:50) nor do you take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, so that the whole nation does not perish.
(Joh 11:51) Now this he said not of himself, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation.
(Joh 11:52) And not for the nation only, but that he might also gather together into one the children of God that are scattered abroad.
(Joh 11:53) So from that day forward, they took advice how they might put him to death. (ALL NEV)

Now the shedding of blood of Jesus as the lamb of God was to fulfill scripture and the commandments of the law. Jesus’ sacrifice of blood was vital for the remission of sin (Heb 9:22). During Passover the lamb as sacrifice had to shed its blood for any covering of sin. Even the lamb’s body was not broken. Jesus’ body was not broken (limbs) either; consistent the laws of the Passover (John 19:36).

(Heb 9:22) And according to the law, I may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood; and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

(Joh 19:36) For these things happened so that the scripture might be fulfilled: A bone of him shall not be broken. (ALL NEV)

And you still think God did not desires payment/ atonement for sin. I guess God was not serious when he made the law in the OT and in particular concerning the Passover for the temporary covering of sin?

Bless you,



APAK

 

[Enoch111]

was He confessing the Father as His God only in HIs humanity, or as the divine Son?

What should be clear from Scripture is that Christ is always the God-Man -- fully God and fully sinless Man. And this is also called "the Mystery of Godliness". Which means that human beings cannot fully comprehend how this is possible. But it is true.

Therefore we must not imagine that when Jesus said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", only His humanity was on display. While Christ confessed His Father as His God in this passage, there are other passages where God the Father plainly calls the Son "God", and also where the Holy Spirit calls Him God. Then we have Thomas calling Christ "God".

 

[brakelite]

What should be clear from Scripture is that Christ is always the God-Man -- fully God and fully sinless Man. And this is also called "the Mystery of Godliness". Which means that human beings cannot fully comprehend how this is possible. But it is true.

Therefore we must not imagine that when Jesus said "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", only His humanity was on display. While Christ confessed His Father as His God in this passage, there are other passages where God the Father plainly calls the Son "God", and also where the Holy Spirit calls Him God. Then we have Thomas calling Christ "God".

I wasn't disputing or suggesting doubt as to the divinity of Jesus. Yet the fact remains that the divine Son of God called His Father "My God", both before and after the resurrection. That Jesus referred to His Father as His God, I believe is significant...gives us all pause for thought as to how we should identify with the Father and the Son when considering we are adopted children. The apostle John was writing late in the early Christian era, and he was writing it is believed for the sole purpose to dispel doubts as to who Jesus is. That throughout his gospel, and the 3 letters attributed to his name, John put great stress upon the Father/Son relationship using that as evidence to the divinity of Jesus is important to consider. Note that John was the only one to quote the prayer of Jesus as in John 17. Here also is further evidence as to how the Son related to His Father, particularly in verse 3 where He confessed that His Father was the only true God, and in verse 21 where Jesus is praying that His church would be united in the same way that He is united with His Father. This cannot be used as evidence we become part of the Godhead, nor yet can it be used as evidence of the existence of a trinity wherein there are 3 persons who are one person. "I and My Father are one", used so often as "proof" of a trinity, takes on different connotations when viewed with respect to John 17:21.
Did God (Jesus's Father) abandon Jesus at the cross? Of course not, not entirely. But Jesus by necessity had to die alone. Just as those who reject His offer of atonement will also have to die alone...rejected by the Father and destined to a second death that without any connection to the only source of life, (John 17:3), will be a death devoid of any life, consciousness, awareness, or knowledge. They shall be as if they had never been.

 

[Enoch111]

Did God (Jesus's Father) abandon Jesus at the cross?

Since the penalty for the sin of the whole world was applied at the Cross for those three dark hours, there can be no doubt that in some sense Christ was abandoned during that period in order suffer the full weight of God's wrath against sin.

It would be unwise to attempt to delve into this too much, since only the Godhead knows exactly how Christ felt. Isaiah 53 ans Psalms 22 and 69 give us some glimpses.

Let not the waterflood overflow me, neither let the deep swallow me up, and let not the pit shut her mouth upon me. (Ps 69:15)

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Jesus had to die as a 100% human being, for his Father to accept him as the perfect sacrifice for mankind.

Jesus had to die

1) as The '~100%~' unique and Divine Being He always was and had been, become the 100% unique and Divine-Human Being He always was and had been to, become,

as He had to die,

2) as The ‘~accepted~’, since everlasting to everlasting in the Council of the Full Fellowship of God-Triune, Father, Son and Holy Spirit,

or He would not have been, could not have been and never for as long as '~minutes before his death~' or after, was, '~the perfect sacrifice for mankind~'.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Christiaan Gerhardus Ebersöhn
Jesus died the Divine Being He always was and had been, become the Divine-Human Being He always was and had been to, become.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

Jesus felt the presence and ’FULL’ power of his Father immediately after his own baptism. He spent 3 years becoming comfortable with his Father’s power inside him as he literally spoke to him to the cross, besides performing all the miracles and such, that the son of man could not do alone. Jesus needed this ‘full’ power of his Father to complete his mission.

Jesus WAS and forever is "The Presence" of "GOD with us". '~The ’FULL’ power~' of GOD the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit '~performed~' in full and perfect union and oneness, in Jesus' conception and birth, circumcision, baptism and temptation, in no lesser degree than during the '~three years He spent ... performing all the miracles and such, that the Son of Man~' alone was predestined and ordained for. He was as '~comfortable with his Father’s power inside him~' as Man as in Eternity before his Incarnation. He never had to do something '~alone~'; the '~full power~' of the Tri-une Godhead started and completed Christ's '~mission~', every moment on the cross included.

 

[APAK]

Jesus WAS and forever is "The Presence" of "GOD with us". '~The ’FULL’ power~' of GOD the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit '~performed~' in full and perfect union and oneness, in Jesus' conception and birth, circumcision, baptism and temptation, in no lesser degree than during the '~three years He spent ... performing all the miracles and such, that the Son of Man~' alone was predestined and ordained for. He was as '~comfortable with his Father’s power inside him~' as Man as in Eternity before his Incarnation. He never had to do something '~alone~'; the '~full power~' of the Tri-une Godhead started and completed Christ's '~mission~', every moment on the cross included.

GB:
It seems I do not agree with what you have said, and it's hard to understand your writing in its form anyway. You know having scripture alongside your writing as a reference can help great deal

thanks.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

The truth is that the Father had forsaken the Son at the cross during that time of unexplainable darkness when the light of the sun and the light of the full moon was gone, signifying the Son of God taking the sins of the world upon Himself on that cross. Just as sin separated Adam & Eve from God, and yet God was still there, just as reported in secular accounts of the unexplainable darkness at His crucifixion that only the lights from the stars was visible in that moment, so too was God the Father still in our universe and hence, still with us & with the Son in that sense so that He rose Him from the dead three days later in according to His will.

Being left behind, thus separated from Him, the Bridegroom, in that sense is a scary thought. It would grieve me greatly if that had happened to me. I can see why God is wiping the tears from the eyes of those saints coming out of the great tribulation because it would take a miracle from God to help saints get passed that loss of being received as a vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven as they would be forever damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House but still in His House because He is faithful as He will still abide in those unrepentant saints left behind.

I trust in Him & in His word to me that He will see what He can do to prevent me from being left behind. Truly, all my hopes are in Jesus Christ.

 

[Willie T]

Jesus WAS and forever is "The Presence" of "GOD with us". '~The ’FULL’ power~' of GOD the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit '~performed~' in full and perfect union and oneness, in Jesus' conception and birth, circumcision, baptism and temptation, in no lesser degree than during the '~three years He spent ... performing all the miracles and such, that the Son of Man~' alone was predestined and ordained for. He was as '~comfortable with his Father’s power inside him~' as Man as in Eternity before his Incarnation. He never had to do something '~alone~'; the '~full power~' of the Tri-une Godhead started and completed Christ's '~mission~', every moment on the cross included.

Agreed. For someone to say that He was just as any other human up until the day of His baptism, is to forget the boy He was, sitting there among the Elders in the Temple when He was only 12... and what He said to Mary and Joseph about it.