Did God the Father or Jesus create angels

[Aunty Jane]

Got to admit Aunty, I was truly expecting you to respond to this last post. Maybe not in the same length as I did, but nothing at all? But it has been almost a month, so just wanted to check in for some kind of reasoning as to your going quiet.

Reading through your response, I can probably say that I see no point in counteracting your points as they are your beliefs and not likely to change due to anything I have to say……

I find the trinity a subject without biblical support, except when it is read into ambiguous verses and deliberately misinterpreted Greek phrases.

I left Christendom for many reasons a long time ago, and suffice it to say, anyone who can claim that the core of Christendom’s teachings are authentic scripturally, or in any way a reflection of Christ’s teachings, is easily fooled. There is no biblical support for any of it, but that is for each of us to decide for ourselves....God will not correct us...he allows our own hearts to do that, or he will leave us to wallow in our delusions. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

If we are dead wrong, he will allow us to remain in error because he sees that we are not open to the inconvenient and uncomfortable truth, but would rather stay with the convenient and comfortable lies. It’s our choice....

 

[Davy]

And again heb 2.7 implies that Jesus did not create the angels by stating that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels

You just need to not be lazy and keep reading there...

Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
KJV

What does that, "for the suffering of death" idea apply to? What part of Jesus' makeup was made "for the suffering of death"?

Jesus' FLESH BODY is the answer to that.



How is it that you appear to not know that Jesus Christ existed WITHOUT A FLESH BODY eternally with The Father? Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, Himself, meaning His Spirit with The Father, NEVER was created or "made". He is even shown in the Old Testament, and even appeared to Abraham!

Did some illiterate preacher tell you that all the Old Testament Books are dead history, and that they don't concern the Christian Faith??

 

[Hillsage]

Reading through your response, I can probably say that I see no point in counteracting your points as they are your beliefs and not likely to change due to anything I have to say……

Your assessment is just as true for 'me concerning you' as it for 'you concerning me'. And yet you are here interacting with all 'those' that you do. 'Those' who are just as unyielding, for the same reason IMO, that you say I have. But you keep debating them. That just seems inconsistent IMO.

I find the trinity a subject without biblical support, except when it is read into ambiguous verses and deliberately misinterpreted Greek phrases.

As I've said, was in a bible study group that was oneness, but kept that secret a secret until I'd been there a while. Then they started leaking their 'oneness' hoping to sway me before running me off....and loosing another one. But I did stay. And in iron sharpening iron ways, I came away learning why they believed what they believed, because I don't want to be deceived. We fellow shipped for a couple years every Friday morning. I still consider them to be brothers in Christ, and they consider me as the same. How pleasant it is for brethren to dwell in unity....of spirit vs conformity based solely on doctrinal agreement.

I left Christendom for many reasons a long time ago, and suffice it to say, anyone who can claim that the core of Christendom’s teachings are authentic scripturally, or in any way a reflection of Christ’s teachings, is easily fooled. There is no biblical support for any of it, but that is for each of us to decide for ourselves....God will not correct us...he allows our own hearts to do that, or he will leave us to wallow in our delusions. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

I never left Christianity but I did leave behind a lot of false Christian doctrines, not to mention the religious spirit of division. Every denomination has error, for no denomination has attained to the "high calling of Christ" or "the image of the statue of the fullness of Christ". or "a church without spot or wrinkle". If that existed I'd be there.

If we are dead wrong, he will allow us to remain in error because he sees that we are not open to the inconvenient and uncomfortable truth, but

I always say; You don't break the laws of the kingdom, they break you.
JER 2:19 "Your own wickedness will correct you, And your apostasies will reprove you;

would rather stay with the convenient and comfortable lies. It’s our choice....

Absolutely, the ministry of the devil can only feed on the fleshy areas of spiritual weakness which we live with. That's why all denominations seem to still get dead and then buried in HELL/grave.

Appreciate your response though. Have a Merry Christmas....oh wait.... that's not funny to you Not for me either. I've read a booklet as to why the Sons of God should not celebrate Christmas'. And I believed it...30 years ago.

Eat the grapes and spit out the seeds Aunty. You got them whether you know it or not, just like me.

 

[Hillsage]

You just need to not be lazy and keep reading there...

Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
KJV

What does that, "for the suffering of death" idea apply to? What part of Jesus' makeup was made "for the suffering of death"?

Jesus' FLESH BODY is the answer to that.

A Good answer. IMO.

How is it that you appear to not know that Jesus Christ existed WITHOUT A FLESH BODY eternally with The Father?

In the same way, you appear to not know 'In the beginning was the WORD/SPIRIT which became FLESH /BODY.

If I said In the beginning was and ORANGE and the ORANGE became a CARROT. Does it make sense to you ,for me to say; Therefore a CARROT IS AN ORANGE?

What is correct to say is; No SPIRIT ever became a body of flesh before Jesus, and no spirit ever became a body of flesh after Jesus. But Jesus Christ wasn't just a FLESH/BODY. He had a spirit and a soul, birthed into his body of flesh in the womb. And it was a spirit FROM God, but it wasn't the Spirit OF GOD. It was the spirit of Christ.

Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, Himself, meaning His Spirit with The Father, NEVER was created or "made". He is even shown in the Old Testament, and even appeared to Abraham!

Did some illiterate preacher tell you that all the Old Testament Books are dead history, and that they don't concern the Christian Faith??

And not so good answer IMO. But we can deal with that later. First let's make sure the 'waters above' aren't already enough to discuss.

 

[Davy]

A Good answer. IMO.

In the same way, you appear to not know 'In the beginning was the WORD/SPIRIT which became FLESH /BODY.

If you know your Bible then you know that Spirit cannot change over to flesh, the two objects are separate, because they exist in separate dimensions. This is why our spirit leaves our flesh body when our flesh dies.

Thus Lord Jesus' SPIRIT never stopped existing when His flesh died on the cross, and the 1 Peter 3 witness with Jesus going to the "spirits in prison" and preaching The Gospel to them is a proof of that. And the stronger proof is the fact that Jesus' existed with The Father eternally, without flesh. And likewise, Jesus' flesh raised body was transfigured to the 'resurrection' body, which is not one of flesh, even though it looks like one, feels like one, etc. Like Apostle Paul said, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, neither doth corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spirit body).

Now concerning the Hebrews 2:9 verse, that idea, "for the suffering of death", ONLY applied to Jesus' flesh body, for that is what died upon the cross. Jesus as SPIRIT did not die on the cross. Thus the proper interpretation of Hebrews 2:7-9 is that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, meaning He was born in the flesh which no angel does, specifically for the purpose of defeating death on the cross via His flesh. It never... means that Jesus was ever created, or made lower than the angels.

So you might want to brush up on Apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 15 about the resurrection body.

 

[Hillsage]

If you know your Bible then you know that Spirit cannot change over to flesh, the two objects are separate, because they exist in separate dimensions.

You obviously don't know me, or you would know that I know the bible. And your condescending comment doesn't support you, it reveals you IMO, but time will certainly tell.

As to YOUR OPINION above, where is scripture to support your OPINION? And if you say sprit can't change to flesh then support that with scripture and I'll support my position/opinion AGAIN, maybe you missed the Chapter/verse give away in my last post.

JOH 4:24 God is spirit, ....." (Written AFTER the WORD/God, spirit gave up equality with God as spirit to become FLESH.....or, the body that the spirit of Christ lived in.

JOH 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JOH 1:14 And the Word became flesh

The Word become FLESH IOW the spirit became FLESH which you say is wrong. So teach me now. But this time use the bible and not just your soulish opinion.

This is why our spirit leaves our flesh body when our flesh dies.

Uhhh, your opinion again.....my SCRIPTURAL refute...AGAIN.

GEN 2:7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground (dead body), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life (animating life); and man became a living being.

You don't die and then your spirit leaves. Your spirit leaves and then you die. It dies because it no longer has the animating zoe 'spirit life' energy for your body of dust to function. Adam's dead body never came to life UNTIL God breathed the 'spirit of Christ' FROM GOD into that dead body. And it was the spirit of Christ in that dead body of dust that WAS the son of God....it wasn't the dirt/body just created.

When did the DEAD BODY come to life when Jesus raised her from the dead?
LUK 8:55 And her spirit returned, and she got up (raised from the dead) at once; and he directed that something should be given her to eat.

When did Jesus' body die?
LUK 23:46 Then Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this he breathed his last.
In those days the definition of death was EXPIRED....EXPIRATION...dead. AFTER the life giving spirit of Christ left the body of Jesus.

THAT's many bible verses for my opinion. Your turn.

Thus Lord Jesus' SPIRIT never stopped existing when His flesh died on the cross, and the 1 Peter 3 witness with Jesus going to the "spirits in prison" and preaching The Gospel to them is a proof of that.

Good word, all true, I agree. but is no proof at all as to your opinion that the flesh dies and then the spirit leaves. I believe that ALL spirits are eternal and never die. My opinion, and I know of NO SCRIPTURE that proves or disproves my statement.

PSA 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
The thing that makes us ALL GODS is the eternal spirit that lives in us AND the animals.

HEB 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

NUM 27:16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

And the stronger proof is the fact that Jesus' existed with The Father eternally, without flesh.

The spirit of CHRIST was the only thing ETERNALLY alive that the man Jesus spirit didn't leave dead. His soul died in the Garden surrendering the will of Jesus' sinful flesh natured body' to the will of the Father. And His body died on the cross and lay dead for 3 days.

MAT 26:38 Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me."

And likewise, Jesus' flesh raised body was transfigured to the 'resurrection' body, which is not one of flesh, even though it looks like one, feels like one, etc.

Correct, see, even you can get some things right. His resurrected body didn't look like him, except for once. That's why scripture says.

2CO 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ (spirit of Jesus) after the flesh (body of Jesus), yet now henceforth know we him no more.

When Mary saw him resurrected at the grave, she didn't recognize him.
JOH 20:15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom do you seek?" Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away."

When Jesus manifested on the beach they didn't recognize him.
JOH 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.

The two APOSTLES on the road to Emmaus never recognized his glorifed body.
LUK 24:35 Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread.

The one time that Jesus body resembled the unglorified body, was so doubting Thomas could get saved.....not by faIth MIND YOU but by SEEING the nail prints and spear hole.

Like Apostle Paul said, flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, neither doth corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spirit body).
So you might want to brush up on Apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 15 about the resurrection body.

You haven't proved YET, that you are ready to go to Corinthians with me.

IT'S YOUR TURN AT BAT, with SCRIPTURES this time and not just OPINION. When I stand before Jesus in judgment, my response shuld be "IT IS WRITTEN"....not "But DAVY said."

 

[Davy]

You obviously don't know me, or you would know that I know the bible. And your condescending comment doesn't support you, it reveals you IMO, but time will certainly tell.

I don't have to personally 'know' you, in order to discern whether you have studied your Bible or not, just so ya know. So I wouldn't get all cocky.

As to YOUR OPINION above, where is scripture to support your OPINION? And if you say sprit can't change to flesh then support that with scripture and I'll support my position/opinion AGAIN, maybe you missed the Chapter/verse give away in my last post.

Where is Bible Scripture to support that 'flesh' and 'spirit' are two different objects? Easy. John 3:6 by Jesus Himself, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

JOH 4:24 God is spirit, ....." (Written AFTER the WORD/God, spirit gave up equality with God as spirit to become FLESH.....or, the body that the spirit of Christ lived in.

JOH 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
JOH 1:14 And the Word became flesh

The Word become FLESH IOW the spirit became FLESH which you say is wrong. So teach me now. But this time use the bible and not just your soulish opinion.

You still don't see it. If Christ's Spirit died on the cross, then it would mean He no longer existed, AND... it would mean Christ Jesus is not God afterall, and that your Salvation is in vain, because human flesh cannot save us, nor can Christ as a non-existing Spirit.

Because you haven't understood this yet, means you still need a lot more Bible study.

 

[ElieG12]

Many believers speak of "the spirit of Jesus" who did not die when his body actually died. But the spirit of Jesus that he entrusted into the hands of his Father is not a who but a what. That spirit in the human Jesus was the life force that allowed him to be alive as a being born biologically human. Within Jesus there was no a living spirit that came out to live somewhere at the time of his death as a human.

When the Bible says that Jesus died, what it means is that he was no longer alive. The Bible DOES NOT SAY that some part of Jesus died and some other part of him was still alive. To say that the spirit of the human Jesus was alive, or dead, is incorrect, because a what cannot live or die, just as a corpse cannot be said to be laughing.

The resurrection of Jesus implies that he was not alive. If he had been alive after dying, which in itself makes no sense, his resurrection would not have been necessary at all.

 

[Hillsage]

I don't have to personally 'know' you, in order to discern whether you have studied your Bible or not, just so ya know. So I wouldn't get all cocky.

The truth is, you now know me better than you did. And now, I hope you know a little better, the difference between COCKINESS and CONFIDENCE.

Where is Bible Scripture to support that 'flesh' and 'spirit' are two different objects? Easy. John 3:6 by Jesus Himself, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

I never asked for "bible Scripture to support 'flesh and spirit' were two different objects."
I asked you to prove with BIBLE that SPIRIT couldn't become FLESH. Which is what I then did with BIBLE. And that is something you haven't answered, because there is no bible support for your OPINION.

You still don't see it. If Christ's Spirit died on the cross, then it would mean He no longer existed,

And I said the opposite. I said "a spirit CAN'T die" and proved with BIBLE, just how many times it agreed with my statement. To which you responded with nothing but OPINION still.

AND... it would mean Christ Jesus is not God afterall, and that your Salvation is in vain, because human flesh cannot save us, nor can Christ as a non-existing Spirit.

Because you haven't understood this yet, means you still need a lot more Bible study.

Just like before, I felt you weren't ready for Corinthians, with me. Now I see you couldn't even deal with more than two of my dealings of multiple quotes from you. And then you never responded, at all, to most of my last post. I think it is time that you/I go separate ways, because I'm here to stay and you've now proved to me that you aren't. Not with me anyway. Talk to others on this thread if you wish, but I now also 'feel' that I don't see any fruitfulness , and wish you a 'GOOD bye'.

 

[Hillsage]

Many believers speak of "the spirit of Jesus" who did not die when his body actually died. But the spirit of Jesus that he entrusted into the hands of his Father is not a who but a what.

I disagree. What you call "life force", is the 'power' which 'a spirit' emits or gives out of itself. It's what Jesus felt flow out of Him to heal the woman with the issue of blood.

1411 dunamis: force (lit. or fig.); spec. miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself)

MAR 5:30 And Jesus, immediately knowing in himself that VIRTUE/dunamis had gone out of him, turned him about in the press, and said, Who touched my clothes?

IMO, The only question above is just exactly WHICH spirit's power emanated from Jesus? Was the the 'dunamis' power from the holy spirit of Christ in Jesus? Or was it the Holy Spirit of God 'dunamis' power from the Holy Spirit of God which was "upon" Him?

YOUR spirit, My spirit, the spirit of CHRIST (which was in Jesus) are all 3, the 1/3 part of the trinity that makes up YOU as a being, ME as one being, "Jesus the Christ" as one being. or FATHER, WORD, HOLY SPIRIT as the one being. Not 2 human beings with 3 HEADS, or one God with 3 heads.

1TH 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Your spirit emits animating spirit-ual life energy/power to YOU. My spirit emits animating spirit-ual life energy/power to ME. The spirit of Christ emited spirit-ual life energy/power to "Jesus the Christ".

That spirit in the human Jesus was the life force that allowed him to be alive as a being born biologically human. Within Jesus there was no a living spirit that came out to live somewhere at the time of his death as a human.

IMO, it was the spirit that emanated the zoe life force/POWER that kept the body of Jesus alive. When that 'Christ spirit' left the body of Jesus, the dunamis life giving power left with it.
And 'that spirit ' which departed the body of Jesus, first went to the Father and then went on to preach to other spirits.

1PE 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

IOW, the same spirit which left Jesus...to die bodily, after preaching to other spirits, then came back to the tomb to resurrect the dead body of Jesus. That is the same pattern as when Jesus raised the dead little girl, AFTER her spirit returned to give her animating life force back into the body it had left.

When the Bible says that Jesus died, what it means is that he was no longer alive. The Bible DOES NOT SAY that some part of Jesus died and some other part of him was still alive. To say that the spirit of the human Jesus was alive, or dead, is incorrect, because a what cannot live or die, just as a corpse cannot be said to be laughing.

The dead body of Jesus wasn't laughing in the grave....I agree. That body was DEAD DEAD. Because the spirit that gave life to that DEAD body was GONE, GONE. First to the Father and then to spirits in prison.

1PE 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which HE went and preached to the spirits in prison,

I can't see Jesus' energy force preaching to ENERGY FORCES....but I can see him preaching to ENTITIES or spirits which emit ENERGY FORCE....just as He did with His preaching.

The resurrection of Jesus implies that he was not alive. If he had been alive after dying, which in itself makes no sense, his resurrection would not have been necessary at all.

Disagree. The resurrection of Jesus proves that the price for sin ever since the Garden has been MORTALITY or a death of the body.
That is the FIRST covenant, and it has not been destroyed yet. It is still called "THE LAW of SIN...and subsequently...DEATH.

What makes no sense to me, as a non JW, is this. How come GOD didn't die when "a God" (the Kingdom Translation) says that THE WORD left THE FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT?

I'll tell you my opinion. It was because "GODs/Elohim is SPIRIT" Joh 4 and not 'a SPIRIT'.

The Father/spirit, the Word/spirit, and the HOLY SPIRIT/spirit, were 'each' spirit in the 'GOD HEAD'....not 'godheads'.

0430 'elohiym: gods in the ordinary sense; but specially used (in the PLURAL .....)

GEN 1:3 And Gods/ELOHIYM said, Let there be light: and there was light.
....................let US make man in OUR image....spirit. Not energy fields.

 

[Davy]

Many believers speak of "the spirit of Jesus" who did not die when his body actually died. But the spirit of Jesus that he entrusted into the hands of his Father is not a who but a what. That spirit in the human Jesus was the life force that allowed him to be alive as a being born biologically human. Within Jesus there was no a living spirit that came out to live somewhere at the time of his death as a human.

No, that "life foce" and "biologically human" idea is earthly materialism philosophy, and is not Biblical regarding the existence of God as "a Spirit".

That thinking is one of the problems some have with not properly understanding the Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 Scripture about our "spirit" that goes back to God when our flesh dies. The materialist thinks that "spirit" simply means like you said, a "life force" when it actually means one's spirit with soul attached. For in Matthew 10:28, Jesus said to not fear those who can kill our flesh but not our soul, which means our soul continues on after flesh death. Also, because Jesus at His resurrection preached the Gospel to the "spirits in prison" reveals their 'spirit' means a lot more than simple animating life force that is in all living things.

Bottom line is, that your statement shows you still do not properly understand the difference between the two dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly one we live in regarding the material universe, and the heavenly one which involves spirit.

Thus I would also warn brethren against men's doctrines of 'humanism' which tries to assign to Lord Jesus Christ as a flesh being only. And in case one doesn't know, believing Jesus was flesh only is gross error, the Matthew 1:23 Scripture that quotes from Isaiah that Jesus' name "Emmanuel" is said there to mean "God with us". That means GOD come in the flesh. So could GOD's Spirit ever die? No, of course not. But atheists and servants of the devil love to push that with their false Humanist philosophies. So don't buy into their humanist doctrines brethren in Christ. Stay alert.

 

[Aunty Jane]

No, that "life foce" and "biologically human" idea is earthly materialism philosophy, and is not Biblical regarding the existence of God as "a Spirit".

That thinking is one of the problems some have with not properly understanding the Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 Scripture about our "spirit" that goes back to God when our flesh dies. The materialist thinks that "spirit" simply means like you said, a "life force" when it actually means one's spirit with soul attached.

There is no passage of scripture that even suggests what you just said.
Eccl 12 is a figurative account of the aging process which ultimately ends in death and..... "Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it."
This is also bringing in Genesis and the creation of man from the dust, as Adam was told he would return there when he died. The fact is, that Adam was animated by God's "breath of life" which indicates that this is the "spirit" that returns to God....the ability to breathe again rests entirely with God. The "soul" is destroyed in death because a body with breath is a soul according to the Bible's definition. The soul is never described as a disembodied spirit. A soul is a living, breathing creature....both man and animals are called "souls" in the Bible. When a human soul is resurrected, the spirit or breath of life is restored. The only one who can restore the breath of life to a resurrected soul, is God.

For in Matthew 10:28, Jesus said to not fear those who can kill our flesh but not our soul, which means our soul continues on after flesh death.

Quote the whole verse....
"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Ge·henʹna."
Souls are "DESTROYED" in "Gehenna" which in the Bible is the symbol of eternal death, not "hell" as many suggest.

Also, because Jesus at His resurrection preached the Gospel to the "spirits in prison" reveals their 'spirit' means a lot more than simple animating life force that is in all living things.

Those "spirits in prison" were the demons who transgressed in Noah's day (2 Peter 2:4-6) by materializing human form and cohabiting with women, they produced a hybrid race of freakish humans known as the Nephilim. They were gigantic in size and violent and licentious in nature, which brought the world of that time into a very hazardous condition. The level of wickedness produced by this demonic influence, left God no choice but to wash the earth clean of their presence and influence. The demons were never said to materialize again, though faithful angels did in bringing God's messages to his human servants on earth.

The word "spirit" has more than one meaning. Look it up.

Bottom line is, that your statement shows you still do not properly understand the difference between the two dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly one we live in regarding the material universe, and the heavenly one which involves spirit.

The Bible quite clearly portrays the two realms without ambiguity...the material realm was created for material creatures, whilst the spirit real was created for spirit beings....angels are spirits and so is God. They occupy a realm that is unseen by human means.

Humans do not possess a soul, but are said to BE a soul which is animated by breathing. The "breath of life" is the "spirit" that keeps us alive. When the spirit departs from the body with our last breath, only God can bring that soul back to life. There is no conscious part of man that leaves the body at death. (Eccl 9:5, 10) That is the first lie told by the devil..."you surely will not die"....and people are still falling for it. Death is the opposite of life, not a continuation of it in another form, in some other place.

Thus I would also warn brethren against men's doctrines of 'humanism' which tries to assign to Lord Jesus Christ as a flesh being only. And in case one doesn't know, believing Jesus was flesh only is gross error, the Matthew 1:23 Scripture that quotes from Isaiah that Jesus' name "Emmanuel" is said there to mean "God with us". That means GOD come in the flesh.

Again Jesus clearly states that he "came down from heaven to do the will of his Father". (John 6:38) So God cannot redeem mankind because God cannot die. Mere humans cannot kill God. So if Christ was God, he didn't really die the same death as Adam, which means that the ransom demanded was not paid, and mankind are still doomed to remain in their sins.

Jesus was a spirit in heaven "with" his Father and he "became flesh" to redeem mankind. He was "sent" on that mission by "the only true God". (John 17:3)

As for the name "Immanuel".....was Jesus called Immanuel? And does that name mean that God was physically present with mankind on earth?
Think about this.....no sinful human can come before our perfect God, which is why he appointed a Mediator...one who acts as a "go between" when two parties are at odds.....the mediator is a facilitator of communication between the two parties. We cannot communicate with God unless it is through the only means God provided for our prayers to be heard by God.
1 Tim 2:5-6..
"There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all....”

How is God his own mediator?

A "ransom" is the set price demanded for the release of captives. Jesus had to lay down a life that was sinless to pay for the sinless life that Adam took from his children.

So could GOD's Spirit ever die? No, of course not. But atheists and servants of the devil love to push that with their false Humanist philosophies. So don't buy into their humanist doctrines brethren in Christ. Stay alert.

Indeed, stay alert.....the lies are old and have been around so long that no one questions them. The devil has humans worshipping the wrong god.

God's spirit was on Jesus during the entire course of his ministry, directing his every step. He prayed to his Father in heaven when he was on earth....If we have "ONE God" and "one Mediator between God and man.....where did three come from......not scripture, I assure you.

 

[ElieG12]

No, that "life foce" and "biologically human" idea is earthly materialism philosophy, and is not Biblical regarding the existence of God as "a Spirit".

I can say something similar about that "concious after-dead soul/ghost/spirit" and what spiritualism/spiritism/witchery teaches.

That thinking is one of the problems some have with not properly understanding the Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 Scripture about our "spirit" that goes back to God when our flesh dies. The materialist thinks that "spirit" simply means like you said, a "life force" when it actually means one's spirit with soul attached. For in Matthew 10:28, Jesus said to not fear those who can kill our flesh but not our soul, which means our soul continues on after flesh death. Also, because Jesus at His resurrection preached the Gospel to the "spirits in prison" reveals their 'spirit' means a lot more than simple animating life force that is in all living things.

Ecclesiastes is clear enough in what it explains about the condition of dead:

Eccl. 9:4 There is hope for whoever is among the living, because a live dog is better off than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they no longer have any share in what is done under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with rejoicing, and drink your wine with a cheerful heart, for already the true God has found pleasure in your works. 8 May your clothing always be white, and do not fail to put oil on your head. 9 Enjoy life with your beloved wife all the days of your futile life, which He has given you under the sun, all the days of your futility, for that is your lot in life and in your hard work at which you toil under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, where you are going.

Bottom line is, that your statement shows you still do not properly understand the difference between the two dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly one we live in regarding the material universe, and the heavenly one which involves spirit.

Bottom line is that you don't agree with what the Scriptures say.

Thus I would also warn brethren against men's doctrines of 'humanism' which tries to assign to Lord Jesus Christ as a flesh being only. And in case one doesn't know, believing Jesus was flesh only is gross error, the Matthew 1:23 Scripture that quotes from Isaiah that Jesus' name "Emmanuel" is said there to mean "God with us". That means GOD come in the flesh. So could GOD's Spirit ever die? No, of course not. But atheists and servants of the devil love to push that with their false Humanist philosophies. So don't buy into their humanist doctrines brethren in Christ. Stay alert.

Again: conscious ghosts/spirits/souls after death is a pagan teaching.

If the spirit of Jesus went conscious to heaven after he died, here:

Luke 23:46 And Jesus called out with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” After he said this, he expired.

Then why he said to the woman "I have not yet ascended to the Father" after his resurrection at the third day??? (John 20:17).

Obviously, that "spirit" was his force of life, not a living ghost that left his body when he died. You are evidently very far from understanding and accepting the biblical truth about what the spirit of life is in a living human being.

Thoughts die along with the body, they do not leave with the life force or spirit that comes out when a living being expires.

Psal. 146:4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground;
On that very day his thoughts perish.

In fact, the spirit of animals, their life force, also leaves them when they die.

Gen. 6:17 “As for me, I am going to bring floodwaters upon the earth to destroy from under the heavens all flesh that has the breath of life. Everything on the earth will perish.
... 7:21 So all living creatures that were moving on the earth perished—the flying creatures, the domestic animals, the wild animals, the swarming creatures, and all mankind. 22 Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died. 23 So He wiped every living thing from the surface of the earth, including man, animals, creeping animals, and the flying creatures of the sky. They were all wiped off the earth; only Noah and those with him in the ark survived.

Accept the Biblical truth:

Eccl. 3:18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust. 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth? 22 And I saw that there is nothing better than for a man to find enjoyment in his work, because that is his reward; for who can enable him to see what will happen after he is gone?

 

[bro.tan]

Jesus after his resurrection from the dead was returning to his former glory, God. (John 17:5) "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." Yes, with thee before the world was. That's why after Jesus was raised from the dead he made this statement. (Mat. 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." It's hard for some people to understand that Jesus came through the Virgin Mary in the flesh, but he has always existed as a spirit being.

Let’s take a closer look to try and better explain this, let's start in Genesis, because that's where the one who became known as Jesus can be seen first. (Gen. 1: 1) It said that; "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." But (John 1: 1-3,-10, 14) states" in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. (v.2) The same was in the beginning with God. (v. 3) All things were made by him; (the Word) and without him was not any thing made that was made. (v.10) He was in the world and the world was made by him.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. COL. 1:16-17

This is talking about the pre-incarnate Jesus, described in vs. 13-15:
"Kingdom of His dear Son... in whom we have redemption through His blood ...
Who is the image of the invisible God."

 

[Davy]

I can say something similar about that "concious after-dead soul/ghost/spirit" and what spiritualism/spiritism/witchery teaches.

Then you would be making up falsehoods by comparing the idea of 'spirit' to mean only 'ghosts' and such like the Biblically illiterate Jews often err with their idiotic horror movies in Hollywood.

Ecclesiastes is clear enough in what it explains about the condition of dead:

Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 is NOT chapter 9. And if all you can do is rely on Eccl.9 to understand what happens at death of our flesh body, then it means you do not believe nor heed The New Testament Bible witness on the matter. It suggests to me that you are stuck on old wives tales of Jewish doctrine from the Old Testament era. Heck, you probably believe dragons are real too! What was the last Hollywood movie made that had dragons in it, I forget?

Bottom line is that you don't agree with what the Scriptures say.

Bottom line is that I DO agree with what God's Word says, but you don't even know what His Word says, because no doubt you've been too busy listening the false Jew's 'dead in the ground' theories. So for me, I know for certain... my ancestors ain't still in the casket buried out in the back yard! They are in heaven with Jesus Christ, The One and ONLY Savior of man.

Again: conscious ghosts/spirits/souls after death is a pagan teaching.

I well know what a ghost is, but YOUR belief of what the words 'spirit' and 'soul' mean is Biblical ignorance and superstition. And that's what many Jewish traditions of men are, just superstitions from ignorance promoted by false priests.

If the spirit of Jesus went conscious to heaven after he died, here:

Luke 23:46 And Jesus called out with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” After he said this, he expired.

Like Solomon said in Eccl.12:5-7, our 'spirit' part goes back to GOD at flesh death. And where does Bible Scripture declares Jesus' Spirit went to after His Resurrection? It certainly did not simply get melted back into the sea of The Great Spirit GOD with all of Jesus' conscious awareness gone. (That "Great Spirit" idea is a pagan convention too the American Indians used for God).

Then why he said to the woman "I have not yet ascended to the Father" after his resurrection at the third day??? (John 20:17).

Obviously, that "spirit" was his force of life, not a living ghost that left his body when he died. You are evidently very far from understanding and accepting the biblical truth about what the spirit of life is in a living human being.

So Jesus Christ was just like 'rock', or a 'plant', or an 'insect', since all those things have a "force of life" in them too?? Do you worship stones, and trees, and plants, and bugs, like the pagans do?? Just by what Apostle Paul taught in Romans 1 about those who in ignorance worship the creature instead of The Creator ought to explain that difference of Jesus' and God's Spirit.

But you can't even get past spirit being in bugs and stones, so I don't see much hope for your twisted, backward, superstitious belief on this matter. You need a lot more maturity in God's written Word.

 

[David in NJ]

All MY discussions is from KJV
Lets start with Heb 1 4..7 ... these versus implies that Jesus was the first creation but that God the Father created the angels. We could imply many many other things from those versus but I won't do this at this time.
And again heb 2.7 implies that Jesus did not create the angels by stating that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels


On replies please list the versus ref by you as I was told I was rude for not adding those type of references

JESUS created ALL things for His Purposes.