Did God the Father or Jesus create angels

[Aunty Jane]

Alright. I apologize.

Ref rev 3.14. "The Faithful and true witness"
In rev 19 again states that this is Jesus. "The word of God.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Yes on all counts! Jesus has many names and titles, but Jehovah (YAHWEH) has only one. (Psalm 83:18)
Jesus has always been “the Word of God” in that he always spoke what his Father taught him. He never taught from himself or his own ideas. (John 7:18)

Heb 1:1-4...KJV.
“God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.”

As “the Word made flesh” God was now offering something more that what his people had in the past....this last prophet was his own “firstborn son”. He is appointed “heir of all things”...so, what did he inherit, and why did God give this to him?

He was “the express image” of his God and Father, (whom he described as “the only true God” in John 17:3).....meaning that he was so like him, that if you saw Jesus, you knew what his Father was like in all respects. On his return to heaven though, how can it be said that was “made better than the angels and by inheritance obtained a name more excellent than they”?

If he was God incarnate and returned to heaven as the “God” he was before his mission, how come he obtains an inheritance (since all things belong to God anyway) and a name more excellent than the angels? Wasn’t his name always more excellent than any angel?

Those who do not believe in the God of the Jews (Deut 6:4) will never understand his relationship with his firstborn son, and how Abraham was used to illustrate how difficult it was for him to have to sacrifice his own precious son, because God required it? (Heb 11:17-19)

Unless we have the big picture....we will struggle with groups of isolated pixels, unable to join them up to form that big picture. What was God’s first purpose for mankind.....what went wrong and why?.....then how did God plan to get back what Adam lost for his children? It all fits into the big picture.....do you have one?

 

[XFire]

You need to learn how to read!

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:1-3 KJV)

"In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God’s presence, and what God was, the Word was. He was with God at the beginning, and through him all things came to be; without him no created thing came into being." (John 1:1-3 REB)

The NET translator's note in reference to the REB translation -

Or “and what God was the Word was.” Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb. A definite meaning for the term is reflected in the traditional rendering “the word was God.” From a technical standpoint, though, it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to anarthrous θεός in John 1:1c (ExSyn 266-69). Translations like the NEB, REB, and Moffatt are helpful in capturing the sense in John 1:1c, that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). However, in contemporary English “the Word was divine” (Moffatt) does not quite catch the meaning since “divine” as a descriptive term is not used in contemporary English exclusively of God. The translation “what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too. This points to unity of essence between the Father and the Son without equating the persons.

Jesus as alpha and omega. He was the first creation. And yes yes he was the beginning of God's creation. I can not deny what Jesus says about himself.

 

[Arthur81]

I believe these are a couple people for whom English is their second language; or, they are the result of our government school systems! It is sad to see such a lack of reading comprehension in such an important area of life.

 

[Stumpmaster]

XFire said:​

First off my God would never humiliate anyone.

BingChat Quote:

The term “the humiliation of Christ” is a Protestant Christian doctrine that refers to the rejection and suffering that Jesus received and accepted, according to Christian belief. It includes his incarnation, suffering, death, burial, and sometimes descent into hell 1.
Calvinist theology distinguishes between Christ’s “state of humiliation”, which consisted of his suffering and death, and his “state of exaltation”, which consisted of his resurrection, ascension, and heavenly session 12. According to the Westminster Shorter Catechism, Christ’s humiliation “consisted in his being born, and that in a low condition, made under the law, undergoing the miseries of this life, the wrath of God, and the cursed death of the cross; in being buried, and continuing under the power of death for a time” 1.
The belief in the humiliation of Christ comes from several places in the Bible. One passage says, “He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not” 1. Christians interpret this as referring to the later coming of Jesus 1. The Epistle to the Philippians in the Christian New Testament reads: “And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross” 1.
I hope this helps!

 

[Hillsage]

Jesus as alpha and omega. He was the first creation. And yes yes he was the beginning of God's creation. I can not deny what Jesus says about himself.

Yes, JESUS was alpha and omega....not the WORD. Jesus was the 'firstborn'....not the WORD. And Jesus was born with the 'spirit of Christ in his 'Word became flesh' body. And yes, he was "a new creation", because Jesus represented the LAST ADAM as opposed to ALL, who are born into the world of the FIRST ADAM. And all of us who are "born again/from above" are also partakers of the "a new creation".

2CO 5:17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, (he is) a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.

"(he is)" is not in the Greek. The only "A new creation" in someone born again, is that of 'the spirit' of an unregenerate man. And it was 'that spirit' which made Jesus 'the SON of God'....and not 'GOD the Son'. And it is that same spirit which makes us "sons of God" after we are born again.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Hillsage …..Actually when it says the “I am the alpha and omega“, it is referring to the Father, who is the one speaking in Rev 1:8…”I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”
“the Lord…..Almighty”. Jesus is never said to be ”the Almighty”. (Isa 48:12)

According to Revelation 1:1, the revelation was given to Jesus Christ by God. Hence, we should expect the words of the Almighty to be quoted in the account.

The next occurrence of the title “the Alpha and the Omega” is found at Revelation 21:6. In the following verse, the One who applies this title to himself says: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son.” Since Jesus Christ speaks of himself as a “brother” of these conquerors, it is the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ who is referring to himself as “the Alpha and the Omega” there.

Finally, at Revelation 22:12-13, it says….. “Look! I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me, to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

This quotation appears among others that are ascribed to an angel and to Jesus Christ. Before these words are quoted in the book of Revelation, the angel who was instrumental in presenting the revelation to the apostle John spoke. (Rev 22: 8-9) Then, after the quotation that begins with Rev 22:12 and ends with the words of verse 15, we find the statement: “I, Jesus, sent my angel.” (Rev 22:16)
Since the context does not necessitate our attributing the words of Rev 22:12-13 either to the angel or to Jesus, they could have originated with another speaker. Consistent with the rest of the book of Revelation, “the Alpha and the Omega” must be the Almighty God Jehovah, who is ‘the beginning and end’ of all things related to his will and purpose…..including his son who was the “beginning” of his creation. (Rev 3:14)

As to Jesus being God’s “Logos”, (“The Word” or spokesman) Revelation 19:11-16, gives Jesus that title.

“I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. 14 Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15 And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.”

There is indisputable proof that Jesus is “The Word of God” who, along with his angelic forces comes as judge to ‘tread the wine press of God the Almighty’s anger’ against wicked humanity. It was “the Word” who was made flesh, not his God. (John 1:14; Rev 3:12)

 

[Hillsage]

It is only a problem if you believe that the Word is Jehovah. “The Word” is a title given to the pre-human Jesus as one who spoke for his Father....as his representative......but it also means “the word of God” in written form, recorded for our instruction and guidance.

No, I don't believe "the Word is Jehovah". You are correct ""The Word" is a title", just like "The Father" and "The Holy Spirit" are titles. And you deflecting to the above statement, still never answered my original comment;

quote: "I thought the PRE-INCARMATE Jesus was the WORD. So are you saying GOD made the WORD? That's a problem."

And you are still proving you have a problem. If GOD made (created) Jesus "who spoke for 'his father'" in the creation of 'all things', then God created the WORD and God wasn't created HE WAS THE CREATOR...as the triune FATHER WORD SPIRIT.

And "the word of God" is;
MAT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written/grapho, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word/RHEMA that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

That which is 'written' is grapho not LOGOS. And the RHEMA comes from the LOGOS of GOD in the above verse. Jesus was not the RHEMA/WORD of God. Jesus spoke RHEMA from His LOGOS, or manifested flesh body.

JOH 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words/RHEMA that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Yes, it's that word again, the one you insinuated I don't understand. QUICKENETH...or "life" giving. That word will give LIFE to your mortal body to overcome death. Or that word will ressurect a dead body back to life.

So the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was NOT like the sinful human race for which he was sacrificing his life, are not true? (Heb 4:15; Heb 7:26) Do you understand the mechanics of redemption? Christ’s sacrifice is called a “ransom”......an exact price demanded for the release of captives. A sinless life was lost, and only a sinless life could be offered to pay it.

You are reading through your own pre-conceived 'contextual lenses' in the above comment. I NEVER SAID JESUS SINNED period.
I said he was born with the same 'sin natured body of flesh' we all are born with. And you never addressed 'that Rom 8:3 verse' proving that, either.

ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son (Christ spirit) in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

According to the above 'the Word' became the sinful flesh natured body of Jesus. And being led by the spirit of Christ in Him, Jesus "condemned sin in HIS flesh" every time he was tempted to sin, just like us.

HEB 4:15 ..the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The sinful nature is in the flesh.
ROM 7:25 Thanks be to God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the 'sinful nature'/sarx a slave to the law of sin.

4561 sarx: flesh ....... the body (as opposed to the soul [or spirit], or as the symbol of what is external,....... human nature (with its frailties [physical or moral] and passions),

I’m afraid that God had many “sons” even before the creation of the universe....
Job 38:4-7.....Job was asked....

And His sons were all "spirits" including Satan. Might we say prodigal? I'm not so sure. My God didn't decide to become OMNISCIENT after Satan and Adam were created and he ended up coming up with a plan B, as the nominal church apparently believes.

"the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD."

So “the (firstborn) son of God” was created first, and all other things came into existence through his agency. (Col 1:15-17) He is the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26.

“This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (John 1:2-3) There it is...in plain English.

The "plain English" above is this: the "HIM" in the verse is not Jesus it is THE WORD. Just like the Father and the Holy Spirit would be called a HIM if it was they who were contextually spoken of.

I'm stopping here, because your post is too long for most to read, let alone comprehend. But I've hopefully let you know I still believe like I did before reading all of your post.

 

[bro.tan]

You have put the egg before the chicken. Bible interpretation is not flat. Versus are proven by other versus. So John 1.1. 3 prove rev 3.14 and col 1.15 and imply hebv1.1..7 for you angels ref.

Not the other way around

The answer is Jesus, not sure how you couldn't see that from the verses I posted, in St. John 1: 2,3,4,10,13,18,29 and Col 1: 15,16

 

[Aunty Jane]

quote: "I thought the PRE-INCARMATE Jesus was the WORD. So are you saying GOD made the WORD? That's a problem."

And you are still proving you have a problem. If GOD made (created) Jesus "who spoke for 'his father'" in the creation of 'all things', then God created the WORD and God wasn't created HE WAS THE CREATOR...as the triune FATHER WORD SPIRIT.

You may be confused by your acceptance of the three headed god, who I assure you, does not exist in scripture.

God was alone for unknown eons of infinite time before his decision to become a Creator. Since his dominant quality is love….for whom could he express that love? With whom did he converse? Himself?

His first creation was his son…a unique being like no other. Jesus said the he was “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14) He was “with” the Father “in the beginning”…so if God is an immortal, he had no beginning……so what “beginning” is this?

The pre-human Jesus was a “son of God” before his earthly mission. The “firstborn” of many “sons of God” including angels and the first human, Adam….as well as those who were chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven. (Col 1:15-17) These the Bible says, were made “sons” by “adoption”.

And "the word of God" is;
MAT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written/grapho, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word/RHEMA that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

That which is 'written' is grapho not LOGOS. And the RHEMA comes from the LOGOS of GOD in the above verse. Jesus was not the RHEMA/WORD of God. Jesus spoke RHEMA from His LOGOS, or manifested flesh body.

Yes, because the term used in the scriptures also means the written word……all spoken by God either through his prophets or through his son.…and recorded for our benefit. They are all one “word” From the same source.

Do you speak archaic English at home? Do you pray in archaic English? What is the deal about the KJV??? It’s a dinosaur in today’s world.…it sounds ridiculous and is completely confusing to one who is unacquainted with God’s word.

JOH 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words/RHEMA that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Yes, it's that word again, the one you insinuated I don't understand. QUICKENETH...or "life" giving. That word will give LIFE to your mortal body to overcome death. Or that word will ressurect a dead body back to life.

Yes I agree, but not in the way you interpret the scriptures….interpretation is everything….get it wrong once and every reference you make from then on will be based on that error.

I said he was born with the same 'sin natured body of flesh' we all are born with. And you never addressed 'that Rom 8:3 verse' proving that, either.

ROM 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son (Christ spirit) in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

According to the above 'the Word' became the sinful flesh natured body of Jesus. And being led by the spirit of Christ in Him, Jesus "condemned sin in HIS flesh" every time he was tempted to sin, just like us.

How can that be when Jesus had to be the exact equivalent of Adam in order to redeem mankind?
Adam had no “sin natured body” when God created him….he was perfect as God created him with no defects….what he did have was free will, which he was persuaded to use unwisely, dividing his loyalties and bringing condemnation on all of his children. (Rom 5:12) The sin we inherited from Adam came to him through disobedience not creation, Jesus had the same free will, which is why the devil tried to tempt him into disobedience through self interest, like he did with the other two perfect humans…but it didn’t work this time, Jesus remained sinless, successfully completing his mission.

HEB 4:15 ..the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

The sinful nature is in the flesh.
ROM 7:25 Thanks be to God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the 'sinful nature'/sarx a slave to the law of sin.

4561 sarx: flesh ....... the body (as opposed to the soul [or spirit], or as the symbol of what is external,....... human nature (with its frailties [physical or moral] and passions),

Only in our now imperfect state is the flesh a snare for sin. Adam had exactly the same perfection of mind and body that Jesus had. But he misused his free will, introducing the consequences of sin…..before that there were no consequences because sin did not exist…only in an imagined penalty IF they disobeyed God’s command. What was imagined became a reality when sin was committed…death entered the human race, but God did not create that situation…Adam did under temptation after making the decision to join his disobedient wife instead of obeying his Sovereign ruler.

And His sons were all "spirits" including Satan. Might we say prodigal? I'm not so sure. My God didn't decide to become OMNISCIENT after Satan and Adam were created and he ended up coming up with a plan B, as the nominal church apparently believes.

"the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD."

My God did not decide to become omniscient then either……but giving his intelligent creation (both angels and humans) free will, he gave them a precious gift that he himself enjoys…..but that gift was abused by sons in both realms…leading to a penalty clearly stated.…..Obey God and continue to live or disobey him and die.
God only responded to the decisions made by his free willed children. His Omnicience meant that he already had a response planned for whatever they chose to do.

The "plain English" above is this: the "HIM" in the verse is not Jesus it is THE WORD. Just like the Father and the Holy Spirit would be called a HIM if it was they who were contextually spoken of.

Have you studied Greek grammar….? The “Paraclete” in Greek is masculine gender and all reference to “him” is masculine because of that. In fact, both the Hebrew and Greek words for “spirit” are the same words that are translated “wind.” Like the wind, the holy spirit cannot be seen; still it is an active force that can produce effects. Its being referred to as the “Spirit of God” or the “Spirit of the LORD” is evidence that it is an instrumentality that belongs to God. It is how he empowers his servants to carry out his will.

The “Holy Ghost” is not a ghost at all…..there are no such things as “ghosts”……there are “spirits”……invisible to human sight unless they materialize as angels did on occasion when delivering messages to God’s human servants on earth. But a “ghost” is associated with an intelligent entity identified with life after death….supposedly an invisible part of man that departs from the body at death……that is not a Bible teaching however…..there is no conscious part of man that leaves the body at death. (Eccl 9:5-6, 10) Those in the grave are in an unconscious state until Jesus calls them out of their resting place. (John 5:28-29)

“Spirits” are those whom God created to live in the spirit realm, like he himself is a spirit….along with those he will transform into spirit beings to join Christ in heaven as “kings and priests” In his kingdom. (Rev 20:10)

 

[Philip James]

Did God the Father or Jesus create angels​

Yes!

Philip said to him, "Master, show us the Father, 7 and that will be enough for us."

Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'

Happy Feast of Christ the King!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Hillsage]

You may be confused by your acceptance of the three headed god, who I assure you, does not exist in scripture.

No more confused than I would be thinking you had three heads just because you are a triune being.

1TH 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

His first creation was his son…a unique being like no other. Jesus said the he was “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14) He was “with” the Father “in the beginning”…so if God is an immortal, he had no beginning……so what “beginning” is this?

I've posted it twice I think, do you even read what I'm posting? I read a LOT of disagreeable 'opinion' in your posts...too much to respond to. And this is going to end pretty quick for me, because I've asked for less and you still type too much diatribe ad nauseam for me to respond. This post of mine is too long IMO.

Do you speak archaic English at home? Do you pray in archaic English? What is the deal about the KJV??? It’s a dinosaur in today’s world.…it sounds ridiculous and is completely confusing to one who is unacquainted with God’s word.

Know what sounds ridiculous to me. YOU saying that the WRITTEN KJV of the WORD OF GOD!!!... in your opinion... "sounds ridiculous".

FYI I study out of 6-7 translations all at the same time on my computer. KJV and NIV are the only two translations I have which are keyed to STRONG's concordance and it's just more convenient to post that way. And I study the bible to. let the bible interpret what the LYING SCRIBES of today have twisted into so many translations that no one has an idea which one is right in most verses.

The “Holy Ghost” is not a ghost at all…..there are no such things as “ghosts”……there are “spirits”……invisible to human sight unless they materialize as angels did on occasion when delivering messages to God’s human servants on earth. But a “ghost” is associated with an intelligent entity identified with life after death….supposedly an invisible part of man that departs from the body at death……that is not a Bible teaching however…..there is no conscious part of man that leaves the body at death. (Eccl 9:5-6, 10) Those in the grave are in an unconscious state until Jesus calls them out of their resting place. (John 5:28-29)

You really don't read my stuff do you? I quoted out of the introduction of my HEBREW GREEK INTERLINEAR NT a whole paragraph on this issue. I told you that even the KJV struggled with what SPIRIT was even being talked about in the NT.
It wasn't just evidenced in them using both Holy Ghost Holy Spirit when they were struggling. They also did it in the following verses.

KJV EPH 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

EPH 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1TH 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

KJV PSA 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

ISA KJV 63:10,11 (2X) But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit WITHIN him?

I have a whole page of different translations all disagreeing when to capitalize the S in the word spirit. None of them are consistent.

So tell me your opinion as to why these translators....heck, ALL translations struggle with consistency in this area. Do you have an answer?

“Spirits” are those whom God created to live in the spirit realm, like he himself is a spirit….along with those he will transform into spirit beings to join Christ in heaven as “kings and priests” In his kingdom. (Rev 20:10)

You should get BORN AGAIN then, because that's WHEN you will quit being a BODY having a SPIRITUAL experience on earth and become a SPIRIT having a BODILY experience.

2CO 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 Here indeed we groan, (in our spirit of Christ in us) and long to put on our heavenly dwelling,(our glorified spiritual body).

I'm taking a break from you Aunty. Too time consuming for me.

 

[Fred J]

All MY discussions is from KJV
Lets start with Heb 1 4..7 ... these versus implies that Jesus was the first creation but that God the Father created the angels. We could imply many many other things from those versus but I won't do this at this time.
And again heb 2.7 implies that Jesus did not create the angels by stating that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels


On replies please list the versus ref by you as I was told I was rude for not adding those type of references

Hi am FJ who just joined in, peace be with you all, tq

Interesting topic, in Colossians 1:15, Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. Next verse 16 says, For by Jesus all things were created - all things were created through Jesus and for Jesus, including angels and positions.

On the other hand, John 3:16 among other verses, declares Jesus as the only begotten Son of the GOD MOST HIGH. Meaning, Jesus alone was created by GOD, while all the other creation in Heaven and on earth created by Jesus.

Hebrews 2:7, actually says, Jesus was made for a little while lower than the angels. Since the Word, Jesus, had to take the form of man and take the place of a sinful man to be crucified.

Hebrews 1:3&4 - After making purification for sins, Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on High, having become as much superior to angels as the name He has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

GOD in Christ Jesus our Lord bless

 

[Aunty Jane]

No more confused than I would be thinking you had three heads just because you are a triune being.

1TH 5:23 May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That scripture always makes me smile….used so often to suggest that we humans are like God in some kind of triune nature….but if you read it in context it is speaking collectively about the body of Christ, not the body of individuals. We are no more triune than God is. Did the Jews know of such a three headed God? The nations served multiple gods, often portrayed as triads, but never was Jehovah portrayed that way. (Deut 6:4)

I've posted it twice I think, do you even read what I'm posting? I read a LOT of disagreeable 'opinion' in your posts...too much to respond to. And this is going to end pretty quick for me, because I've asked for less and you still type too much diatribe ad nauseam for me to respond. This post of mine is too long IMO.

I write what I write in response to what is said to me…..it’s up to you if you read it. No one is standing there with a big stick….

Know what sounds ridiculous to me. YOU saying that the WRITTEN KJV of the WORD OF GOD!!!... in your opinion... "sounds ridiculous".

It’s not “the written word of God” that is ridiculous but the archaic language in which the KJV is written….
If we do not use language that is easily understood, then what is the point of translations?

FYI I study out of 6-7 translations all at the same time on my computer. KJV and NIV are the only two translations I have which are keyed to STRONG's concordance and it's just more convenient to post that way. And I study the bible to. let the bible interpret what the LYING SCRIBES of today have twisted into so many translations that no one has an idea which one is right in most verses.

Me too, and I love Strongs Concordance….it has proven many times that translations can take liberties at times with the text, either inserting or omitting things that should not be there.

I told you that even the KJV struggled with what SPIRIT was even being talked about in the NT.
It wasn't just evidenced in them using both Holy Ghost Holy Spirit when they were struggling.

Why did they struggle? If the concept of a “Holy Ghost” was not from the scriptures, then knowing those scriptures should have informed them. Holy Spirit is not a person, but is personified in some scripture like other things are. And when the Greek “Paraclete“ is used, masculine gender in the grammar is followed, which does not make the holy spirit into a “ghost”.

I have a whole page of different translations all disagreeing when to capitalize the S in the word spirit. None of them are consistent.

So tell me your opinion as to why these translators....heck, ALL translations struggle with consistency in this area. Do you have an answer?

Because they are trying to reconcile something that scripture does not teach…..God’s spirit is the administration of his power, given to his earthly servants in measured amounts….not too much, not too little.
As an example, when Moses was finding the going a bit tough dealing with God’s complaining people in the wilderness, God suggested finding some qualified men to assist him in the task….God backed up that suggestion by taking “some of his spirit” that was on Moses and dividing it up between his assistants. (Numbers 11:16-17) Does that sound like God dividing up bits of himself?

You should get BORN AGAIN then, because that's WHEN you will quit being a BODY having a SPIRITUAL experience on earth and become a SPIRIT having a BODILY experience.

2CO 5:1 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.2 Here indeed we groan, (in our spirit of Christ in us) and long to put on our heavenly dwelling,(our glorified spiritual body).

This is speaking of the elect…..I am not one of the chosen ones because my destiny is right here on earth. I have no anointing with holy spirit, and I will not be “born again” because that is reserved for those whom God has assigned a role in heaven. Not all Christians are “born again”, nor do they have to be.
You cannot choose to be “born again” because this is something God does, not something we can do.

I'm taking a break from you Aunty. Too time consuming for me.

Well I am definitely sorry that you found it so difficult to read my responses….I find many people today have the attention span of a goldfish and reading is apparently tiresome….especially reading things that challenge their beliefs. We all have them, and God is observing each of us to see if his truth resonates with them.
This is why Jesus sent out his disciples to preach…..(Matthew 10:11-14) Those not received favorably, were to “shake the dust off” and move on to the next house……that is your privilege, depending upon which side of the door you are on.

 

[Hillsage]

That scripture always makes me smile….used so often to suggest that we humans are like God in some kind of triune nature….but if you read it in context it is speaking collectively about the body of Christ, not the body of individuals. We are no more triune than God is. Did the Jews know of such a three headed God? The nations served multiple gods, often portrayed as triads, but never was Jehovah portrayed that way. (Deut 6:4)

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Yes yes yes, Very pagan stuff you've posted. Want to know why?

2CO 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Satan and his ministers especially like to mimic THE TRUTH. That's where Satan got the idea from. And possibly where you get your "Three heads" idea from too?

It’s not “the written word of God” that is ridiculous but the archaic language in which the KJV is written….
If we do not use language that is easily understood, then what is the point of translations?

I've heard two prophets say The BIBLE doesn't need to be REWROTE as much as it needs to be REREAD. There are so many lame brained translations out there being used by religious spiritual dunces IMO. I've had some of them quote 'their' paraphrase translations in 'Unorthodox forum' theological debates with me. Proving 'in their mind' that their translation trumped mine which supports truth they never heard. That is as sad as it is ridiculous , when trying to touch their soggy milk toast souls .

Why did they struggle? If the concept of a “Holy Ghost” was not from the scriptures, then knowing those scriptures should have informed them. Holy Spirit is not a person, but is personified in some scripture like other things are. And when the Greek “Paraclete“ is used, masculine gender in the grammar is followed, which does not make the holy spirit into a “ghost”.

These GREEK SCHOLARS struggled because they were too MENTAL, and not SPIRITUAL, when it came to interpreting what they were translating.

What I can say in their defense is this, they at least recognized what you don't, and they were trying to point out something they couldn't really figure out. The later translators simply ignore those differences totally and conform scripture to their pre-indoctrinated mindsets. And they then came up with bible discrepancies that even you noted when yousaid;

quote; "I love Strongs Concordance….it has proven many times that translations can take liberties at times with the text, either inserting or omitting things that should not be there."

And I will end in agreement with that statement.

But a few questions, as to who you really are, if I may?
How long have you been a believer.
A little testimony would be appreciated. (Mine is in my profile for all to see). I don't ever find anyone else's...WHY?
And yes I will read all of it.
Things slowed up here, but I still don't like long posts as a rule.
Do you go to some gathering that holds the same/similar theology as you?

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus has many names and titles, but Jehovah (YAHWEH) has only one. (Psalm 83:18)

Here is how the REV renders this verse.

that they may know that you alone, whose name is Yahweh, are the Most High over all the earth.​

It is a literal too literal a translation for my general preferences but when it comes to the divine name, it is superb. Thought you might like to know about this translation.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes yes yes, Very pagan stuff you've posted. Want to know why?

I already know why....satan has no new tricks.

Sorry for the long post again...but I have answered your questions...

2CO 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Satan and his ministers especially like to mimic THE TRUTH. That's where Satan got the idea from. And possibly where you get your "Three heads" idea from too?

He is not called “the deceiver” for nothing....the “angel of light” doesn’t want anyone to think he is really evil, so he will use things that seem innocent, and that appeal to emotion or self interest. He knows it works.

I've heard two prophets say The BIBLE doesn't need to be REWROTE as much as it needs to be REREAD. There are so many lame brained translations out there being used by religious spiritual dunces IMO. I've had some of them quote 'their' paraphrase translations in 'Unorthodox forum' theological debates with me. Proving 'in their mind' that their translation trumped mine which supports truth they never heard. That is as sad as it is ridiculous , when trying to touch their soggy milk toast souls .

“Lame brained translations” are not the problem...it’s people who stick to one translation without checking a concordance or an interlinear to see if the translation they are using is consistent and accurate in its rendering. If not, there will be contradictions and it will not be the fault of the Bible, but those who want to push a belief that it does not support.

I admit to being put off by the ‘olde English’ in the KJV, since it is a dead language and one not easily understood by new Bible students, so I prefer modern English as it conveys the truth more clearly IMO. We have come a long way with linguistics and we can benefit from their work.
I love to do research.

These GREEK SCHOLARS struggled because they were too MENTAL, and not SPIRITUAL, when it came to interpreting what they were translating.

What I can say in their defense is this, they at least recognized what you don't, and they were trying to point out something they couldn't really figure out. The later translators simply ignore those differences totally and conform scripture to their pre-indoctrinated mindsets. And they then came up with bible discrepancies that even you noted when yousaid;

quote; "I love Strongs Concordance….it has proven many times that translations can take liberties at times with the text, either inserting or omitting things that should not be there."

This is why we need that Concordance along with an Interlinear to check and see if any Bible verse has been tampered with...deliberately or not.

But a few questions, as to who you really are, if I may?
How long have you been a believer.

I was raised Anglican but left the church system in my late teens looking for the truth, which I never found in Christendom. I searched other religious systems and found them lacking as well....I was looking for a church that taught from the whole Bible not just selected bits that seemed to say things that just never added up for me. All I had was bits and pieces of what seemed like huge and complicated jig-saw puzzle, where none of the pieces fitted together.....I wanted a “big picture” so that I could see what the whole story was....no one had one. It was frustrating me to no end.

On top of that my father died very suddenly and left our family utterly devastated....my need for answers heightened then because a whole new set of questions became very important to me.

A little testimony would be appreciated. (Mine is in my profile for all to see). I don't ever find anyone else's...WHY?
And yes I will read all of it.

OK. When no church or religious system could provide what I needed, I turned to science and evolution, feeling as if finding God was impossible....but the more I studied evolution, the more I saw deliberate and clever design....no amount of flukes could possibly produce those things so consistently.
So just when I was ready to give up on finding those who knew the Great Scientist, who created all things.....there was a knock on my door. Two ladies were there with a Bible in hand, who wanted to know if I was interested in a Bible study. You can guess who they were.

My first reaction was to string them along because I had always turned them away...but for some reason, that day I started asking questions, facetiously at first......but to my complete surprise, they asked if I had a Bible, so I trotted out my old KJV, (given to me when I was 10 years old, by my grandmother) and they asked me to find the answers to my questions directly from God’s word. They would give me the verses and I would read them from my own Bible.....every question had a straight answer from the scriptures, not from these women......for the first time, I felt a glimmer of hope. I wanted to know more and the more questions I had answered, the more questions I had.....so I started a Bible study (52 years ago) and I have been an avid Bible student ever since. I also became a teacher of what I had learned, passing my experience on to others.

Things slowed up here, but I still don't like long posts as a rule.

Sorry, it’s the teacher in me...when I explain things I like to provide the details, because that was what was important to me and still is. You find either God or the devil in those details.

Do you go to some gathering that holds the same/similar theology as you?

Yes, I have a very faithful and cohesive, global brotherhood, over 8 million strong, who all meet together for Bible instruction and training for the work that Jesus assigned to all his disciples.....the preaching of the good news of God’s Kingdom (Matt 24:14).....all are in agreement with no divisions among us. (1 Cor 1:10)
Jesus trained his disciples before he sent them out to preach about God’s Kingdom. (Matthew 10:11-14)
I can only imagine (enviously) sitting and listening to him teach.

We are determined to carry out the assignment that Jesus gave no matter what opposition we receive (John 15:18-21)....it’s the very same situation as the first Christians found themselves in.....raised in a corrupted religious system and ostracised for following someone who taught something completely different, even though they purportedly worshipped the same God. Jesus said that our enemies would likely be members of our own household. (Matthew 10:34-39)

Jesus called himself “the Faithful and True Witness”....He was a Witness for his God and Father.... so we aim to follow his example. (Rev 3:14; 1 Peter 2:21)
Like him, I am proudly, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Here is how the REV renders this verse.

that they may know that you alone, whose name is Yahweh, are the Most High over all the earth.​

It is a literal too literal a translation for my general preferences but when it comes to the divine name, it is superb. Thought you might like to know about this translation.

The ASV is also faithful to God’s name....(Exodus 3:15, Psalm 83:18)

 

[Wrangler]

The ASV is also faithful to God’s name....(Exodus 3:15, Psalm 83:18)

I can hardly imagine a more insidious act than not being faithful to God's name.

There is a famous fight with Muhammad Ali v Ernie Terrel, where he was criticized for NOT knocking out Terrel. His critics claimed he was more mean by talking to him, extending the beating. What was Ali saying? "What's my name?" His opponent refused to acknowledge the champion's name was no longer Cassius Clay.

Ernie claimed he did that just to hype the fight and get under Ali's skin.

Calling someone there proper name is not the highest form of honoring someone. It is the most basic form of showing respect. When you cannot even bring yourself to honor the Almighty by calling him by his proper name, it really says something about you. I wonder who would be so against the Creator to not even call him by his proper name? Who would seek to inspire others to do the same?

Getting back to the OP, God the Father is the Creator. There is only one who is the Most High over all the Earth - and it is not Jesus per Psalm 83:18.

 

[Hillsage]

I already know why....satan has no new tricks.

I disagree. But I think the oldest one still works as good as when the church of Rome invented it. And we sorta hold hands concerning that false doctrine of ETERNAL HELL.

He is not called “the deceiver” for nothing....the “angel of light” doesn’t want anyone to think he is really evil, so he will use things that seem innocent, and that appeal to emotion or self interest. He knows it works.

I'm sorry, but I was asked by a church God called us back to (after calling us out 8 years before) to mentor a former Satanic Coven leader. And he and I disagree would both disagree with your above statement. They know how the system of Satan works to serve us and his worshipers. And he is only an "angel of light" and "deceiver" to those too spiritually un'"GIFTED TO DISCERN 'good from evil' SPIRITS.

“Lame brained translations” are not the problem...it’s people who stick to one translation without checking a concordance or an interlinear to see if the translation they are using is consistent and accurate in its rendering. If not, there will be contradictions and it will not be the fault of the Bible, but those who want to push a belief that it does not support.

Do you know what my first Greek Interlinear was? It was of a First Edition 500,000 copies; The Kingdom Interlinear Translation
I bought it because I was told it was being studied in a NON JW bible school by relatives of my closest Christian couple for the last 50 years. They said it was a good Greek TRANSLATION (Wescott and Hort) you just had to watch out for the false INTERPETATION added to the Greek. For example; When they ADDED an "A" to John 1:1 saying "the word was with God and the word was A God." Which was very convenient for JW theology. I still refer to that reference and am thankful to the two gals who knocked on my door and agreed to sell me a copy of that 1,000 page book for CHEAP. I mean like a coupe of dollars. I'm sure they thought they were going to 'convert' me....but, that didn't happen. We (you/I) do hold some doctrines more in common with each other than I do nominal Christianity though. I always try to find the truth that the devil has slipped into all the "BIBLE believing" religious sects. They all have truth and they all have that little bit of false. It's like the pill you stick in the hamburger to poison the dog with.

So just when I was ready to give up on finding those who knew the Great Scientist, who created all things.....there was a knock on my door. Two ladies were there with a Bible in hand, who wanted to know if I was interested in a Bible study. You can guess who they were.

Only two groups come to mind. And in Chiropractic College two of my closest study partners were 'that other' (2 younger elders) group' which your 2 door knockers group doesn't belong to. We regularly went to study at 'the house' their church bought across the street from campus. They bought for their church's many students going to Palmer College. Students who were expected to become BIG GIVERS to 'the church' after graduating and becoming doctors. (Always follow that money trail)

Sorry, it’s the teacher in me...when I explain things I like to provide the details, because that was what was important to me and still is. You find either God or the devil in those details.

When the 'details' are laced with so much I disagree with it becomes a formidable job to present the truth I believe I have. People won't hang long enough ....especially in the arenas like we're playing in here.

Yes, I have a very faithful and cohesive, global brotherhood, over 8 million strong, who all meet together for Bible instruction and training for the work that Jesus assigned to all his disciples.....the preaching of the good news of God’s Kingdom (Matt 24:14).....all are in agreement with no divisions among us. (1 Cor 1:10)

Yes eat the grapes of ! Cor 1:10....but don't forget the meat...from the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION.

1Cor 11:18 For first of all, when YOU come together in a congregation, I hear divisions exist among YOU; and in some measure I believe it. 19 For there must also be sects among YOU, that the persons approved may also become manifest among YOU.

Now I am of a "sect"/heretic/haresis that's crazy enough to claim 'some' Jehovah Witness AND Mormons as brethren. This very much upsets my traditionally Charismatic sect and Fundamental sect believers. Though I prefer to declare myself as Charismatic. Because I'm not WAITING for the KINGDOM OF GOD in some hereafter. I'm DOING the Kingdom of God here and now like Jesus did....but not just not as good as He did.

Jesus trained his disciples before he sent them out to preach about God’s Kingdom. (Matthew 10:11-14)
I can only imagine (enviously) sitting and listening to him teach.

You forgot "HEAL THE SICK" and "CAST OUT DEMONS"....I have. Have you? I started the deliverance ministry in this church we were in 17 years, then out 8 years, then in 3 years and now I'm out again....for 2 months. I refuse to be BOUND by the religious spirited leaders of any denomination or cult.

Jesus called himself “the Faithful and True Witness”....He was a Witness for his God and Father.... so we aim to follow his example. (Rev 3:14; 1 Peter 2:21)
Like him, I am proudly, one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Yes, He was a "WITNESS" and one "APPROVED of God" like 1 Cor 11: 18 said. By "miracles, wonders and signs." Just like I've walked in....but still short of "the high calling of CHRIST".

ACT 2:22* Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

And it was this kind of 'approval by God' which the brethren saw and heard about, which got me into trouble with those who were IN CHARGE. It is always dangerous to be RIGHT when those in leadership are WRONG.

OK, I talked too long this time. But I had the time. I'll just end with this. My brother, who was an elder in 'the church' I just spoke of, was kicked off the elder board because he believe 51% in the doctrine I taught him when I mentored him for 5 years after he first became a believer at age 35. That doctrine was NO ETERNAL HELL. A doctrine his JW wife had no problem with since that's what she was raised up believing anyway. And the doctrine of the TRINITY was the other doctrine she fought hardest to try to understand but could not accept no matter what I said. She just wrote me a letter a few weeks ago thanking me for telling her early on in her BORN AGAIN christian walk (after my brother got saved) to"just put the trinity on the shelf" and don't let that one doctrine keep her from coming to know the Jesus she recently met. And also after not coming to know him being raised as a JW.

Anyway, thank you for opening up and sharing your walk. I honestly can't believe I didn't pick up on you as a JW....even after I believe someone called you one on a thread that you never answered back to with a Yea or Nay. You are unique and if we do dialogue in the future this knowledge is going to help me understand what spirit I am dealing with.

BTW that's one thing I did like in the JW Interlinear I bought. It lower cased holy spirit all the time. Problem was it did it even when it should have been talking about the PERSON and not just the POWER which HE pours forth out....from the triune GodHEAD....not triune GodheadS....

 

[Hillsage]

I disagree. But I think the oldest one still works as good as when the church of Rome invented it. And we sorta hold hands concerning that false doctrine of ETERNAL HELL.

I'm sorry, but I was asked by a church God called us back to (after calling us out 8 years before) to mentor a former Satanic Coven leader. And he and I disagree would both disagree with your above statement. They know how the system of Satan works to serve us and his worshipers. And he is only an "angel of light" and "deceiver" to those too spiritually un'"GIFTED TO DISCERN 'good from evil' SPIRITS.

Do you know what my first Greek Interlinear was? It was of a First Edition 500,000 copies; The Kingdom Interlinear Translation
I bought it because I was told it was being studied in a NON JW bible school by relatives of my closest Christian couple for the last 50 years. They said it was a good Greek TRANSLATION (Wescott and Hort) you just had to watch out for the false INTERPETATION added to the Greek. For example; When they ADDED an "A" to John 1:1 saying "the word was with God and the word was A God." Which was very convenient for JW theology. I still refer to that reference and am thankful to the two gals who knocked on my door and agreed to sell me a copy of that 1,000 page book for CHEAP. I mean like a coupe of dollars. I'm sure they thought they were going to 'convert' me....but, that didn't happen. We (you/I) do hold some doctrines more in common with each other than I do nominal Christianity though. I always try to find the truth that the devil has slipped into all the "BIBLE believing" religious sects. They all have truth and they all have that little bit of false. It's like the pill you stick in the hamburger to poison the dog with.



Only two groups come to mind. And in Chiropractic College two of my closest study partners were 'that other' (2 younger elders) group' which your 2 door knockers group doesn't belong to. We regularly went to study at 'the house' their church bought across the street from campus. They bought for their church's many students going to Palmer College. Students who were expected to become BIG GIVERS to 'the church' after graduating and becoming doctors. (Always follow that money trail)

When the 'details' are laced with so much I disagree with it becomes a formidable job to present the truth I believe I have. People won't hang long enough ....especially in the arenas like we're playing in here.


Yes eat the grapes of ! Cor 1:10....but don't forget the meat...from the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION.

1Cor 11:18 For first of all, when YOU come together in a congregation, I hear divisions exist among YOU; and in some measure I believe it. 19 For there must also be sects among YOU, that the persons approved may also become manifest among YOU.

Now I am of a "sect"/heretic/haresis that's crazy enough to claim 'some' Jehovah Witness AND Mormons as brethren. This very much upsets my traditionally Charismatic sect and Fundamental sect believers. Though I prefer to declare myself as Charismatic. Because I'm not WAITING for the KINGDOM OF GOD in some hereafter. I'm DOING the Kingdom of God here and now like Jesus did....but not just not as good as He did.

You forgot "HEAL THE SICK" and "CAST OUT DEMONS"....I have. Have you? I started the deliverance ministry in this church we were in 17 years, then out 8 years, then in 3 years and now I'm out again....for 2 months. I refuse to be BOUND by the religious spirited leaders of any denomination or cult.

Yes, He was a "WITNESS" and one "APPROVED of God" like 1 Cor 11: 18 said. By "miracles, wonders and signs." Just like I've walked in....but still short of "the high calling of CHRIST".

ACT 2:22* Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

And it was this kind of 'approval by God' which the brethren saw and heard about, which got me into trouble with those who were IN CHARGE. It is always dangerous to be RIGHT when those in leadership are WRONG.

OK, I talked too long this time. But I had the time. I'll just end with this. My brother, who was an elder in 'the church' I just spoke of, was kicked off the elder board because he believe 51% in the doctrine I taught him when I mentored him for 5 years after he first became a believer at age 35. That doctrine was NO ETERNAL HELL. A doctrine his JW wife had no problem with since that's what she was raised up believing anyway. And the doctrine of the TRINITY was the other doctrine she fought hardest to try to understand but could not accept no matter what I said. She just wrote me a letter a few weeks ago thanking me for telling her early on in her BORN AGAIN christian walk (after my brother got saved) to"just put the trinity on the shelf" and don't let that one doctrine keep her from coming to know the Jesus she recently met. And also after not coming to know him being raised as a JW.

Anyway, thank you for opening up and sharing your walk. I honestly can't believe I didn't pick up on you as a JW....even after I believe someone called you one on a thread that you never answered back to with a Yea or Nay. You are unique and if we do dialogue in the future this knowledge is going to help me understand what spirit I am dealing with.

BTW that's one thing I did like in the JW Interlinear I bought. It lower cased holy spirit all the time. Problem was it did it even when it should have been talking about the PERSON and not just the POWER which HE pours forth out....from the triune GodHEAD....not triune GodheadS....

Got to admit Aunty, I was truly expecting you to respond to this last post. Maybe not in the same length as I did, but nothing at all? But it has been almost a month, so just wanted to check in for some kind of reasoning as to your going quiet.