Did God the Father or Jesus create angels

[XFire]

All MY discussions is from KJV
Lets start with Heb 1 4..7 ... these versus implies that Jesus was the first creation but that God the Father created the angels. We could imply many many other things from those versus but I won't do this at this time.
And again heb 2.7 implies that Jesus did not create the angels by stating that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels


On replies please list the versus ref by you as I was told I was rude for not adding those type of references

 

[Stumpmaster]

And again heb 2.7 implies that Jesus did not create the angels by stating that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels

No it doesn't.

May I suggest you start from Hebrews 1:1 and read for context, paying special attention to this passage in chapter 2 which addresses what is known as The Humiliation of Christ in taking on human form, thus being made a little lower than the angels, (a quote from Psalm 8 btw).

Heb 2:5-18 For it is not to angels that He has subjected the world to come, about which we are speaking. (6) But somewhere it is testified in these words: “What is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him? (7) You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor (8) and placed everything under his feet.” When God subjected all things to him, He left nothing outside of his control. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. (9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. (10) In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. (11) For both the One who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers. (12) He says: “I will proclaim Your name to My brothers; I will sing Your praises in the assembly.” (13) And again: “I will put My trust in Him.” And once again: “Here am I, and the children God has given Me.” (14) Now since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, (15) and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. (16) For surely it is not the angels He helps, but the descendants of Abraham. (17) For this reason He had to be made like His brothers in every way, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people. (18) Because He Himself suffered when He was tempted, He is able to help those who are being tempted.

 

[XFire]

Firts. Thank you for adding verse refs. I appreciate it.

Your words.. which addresses what is known as The Humiliation of Christ in taking on human form,

Again this statement is a tradition of man that is post biblical. It is biased due to trinitarian beliefs which are not supported by the actual words in the bible.

First off my God would never humiliate anyone. Especially his only begotten. He loved us so much. And I am sure he loves his first creation that much rev 3.14.

Jesus was made a little lower that the angels so that he could suffer death. This verse is plain and simple. Hods word is plain and simple. It doesn't need man's theories to teach truth

There is NO salvation for angels. For God to bring His children back to him he made Jesus and us to die once . This was so that the last sin (death) could be overcome. So that we too will sit with Jesus his throne as joint heirs. Rom 8.17

 

[Jim C]

All MY discussions is from KJV
Lets start with Heb 1 4..7 ... these versus implies that Jesus was the first creation but that God the Father created the angels. We could imply many many other things from those versus but I won't do this at this time.
And again heb 2.7 implies that Jesus did not create the angels by stating that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels


On replies please list the versus ref by you as I was told I was rude for not adding those type of references

John 1:1-3

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Jesus is the Word made flesh so, per vs 3, all things were made through Christ. As no exceptions are listed (in fact the wording does not allow for any exceptions), I would presume the angels were made through Him as well.

 

[Cassandra]

There is NO salvation for angels.

Really? I thought the angels had a choice as to who to follow, and there are some 1/3 who will be destroyed because of the choice they made.

 

[Hillsage]

Just an opinion here;

Rev 3:14 "In the beginning of the creation of God"... wasn't 'the Christ'.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the WORD"....and the pre-incarnate :14 "WORD became FLESH" (a body). The Holy Spirit birthed the 'spirit of Christ' into that body of flesh. That's when the pre-incarnate WORD became carnate body of Jesus. The body that the spirit and soul of "Jesus the Christ", lived in.

Thoughts?

 

[XFire]

John 1:1-3

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

Jesus is the Word made flesh so, per vs 3, all things were made through Christ. As no exceptions are listed (in fact the wording does not allow for any exceptions), I would presume the angels were made through Him as well.

You have put the egg before the chicken. Bible interpretation is not flat. Versus are proven by other versus. So John 1.1. 3 prove rev 3.14 and col 1.15 and imply hebv1.1..7 for you angels ref.

Your statement is what has been told to us since nicene. But remember too.laity were not allowed to read the real words. And if you disagreed with or tried to translate you were killed. So even today the pulpit is still spewing out what is not supported in the real words

 

[bro.tan]

All MY discussions is from KJV
Lets start with Heb 1 4..7 ... these versus implies that Jesus was the first creation but that God the Father created the angels. We could imply many many other things from those versus but I won't do this at this time.
And again heb 2.7 implies that Jesus did not create the angels by stating that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels


On replies please list the versus ref by you as I was told I was rude for not adding those type of references

Let's take a look in John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. How absolute is all things?

 

[XFire]

Let's take a look in John 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. How absolute is all things?

You have put the egg before the chicken. Bible interpretation is not flat. Versus are proven by other versus. So John 1.1. 3 prove rev 3.14 and col 1.15 and imply hebv1.1..7 for you angels ref.

Not the other way around

 

[Gabriel _Arch]

Firts. Thank you for adding verse refs. I appreciate it.

Your words.. which addresses what is known as The Humiliation of Christ in taking on human form,

Again this statement is a tradition of man that is post biblical. It is biased due to trinitarian beliefs which are not supported by the actual words in the bible.

First off my God would never humiliate anyone. Especially his only begotten. He loved us so much. And I am sure he loves his first creation that much rev 3.14.

Jesus was made a little lower that the angels so that he could suffer death. This verse is plain and simple. Hods word is plain and simple. It doesn't need man's theories to teach truth

There is NO salvation for angels. For God to bring His children back to him he made Jesus and us to die once . This was so that the last sin (death) could be overcome. So that we too will sit with Jesus his throne as joint heirs. Rom 8.17

Immanuel,Jesus,was,is, God. God made the angels.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Just an opinion here;

Rev 3:14 "In the beginning of the creation of God"... wasn't 'the Christ'.

In Rev 3:14, Jesus calls himself...”the Amen....the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God”. So the prehuman Jesus is God’s first creation.
Col 1:15-17 calls Jesus “the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”. Plain and simple....no interpretation necessary.

Paul goes on to say....”by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible”.....”by means of him” meaning that the prehuman Jesus was the means by which all creation came about...the “invisible” things would include the spirit beings we call angels".

”All things have been created through him and for him.”
Which means that he was the agency “through whom” God created all things. And just to be sure, he emphasised again....”he is before all things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist”.

This places Jesus as the unique creation that he was....”the only begotten son of God”....his “firstborn”.....the only being in creation who was directly created by his Father.

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the WORD"....and the pre-incarnate :14 "WORD became FLESH" (a body).

Don’t we have to ask...”what beginning” is this, since the eternal God had no beginning?

The prehuman Jesus was “the beginning of God’s creation”. He was his Father’s “Logos” or spokesman...a role he payed down through history when God spoke to man. To Adam in the garden.....to the prophets of old....to Abraham at Mamre....to Moses in the burning bush and in the Tabernacle before the Shekinah light.

The Holy Spirit birthed the 'spirit of Christ' into that body of flesh. That's when the pre-incarnate WORD became carnate body of Jesus. The body that the spirit and soul of "Jesus the Christ", lived in.

Thoughts?

Holy spirit produced the man Jesus, who became the Christ. He existed in heaven as a spirit being before his earthly mission and became, in every respect, a mortal human, born of a woman, but without inherited sin because he was not a son of Adam. “The Word (Logos) became flesh”.

The spirit body he had before his earthly life, was restored when God resurrected him. He was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) The body he sacrificed was gone and he remained on earth in spirit form for 40 days, “appearing” to his disciples on many occasions to prove that his God and Father had raised him from the dead. (Acts 1:3)

 

[XFire]

Again you listen to the reactions of man. If you can't belive the words of Jesus about himself then Satan has blinded you.

Ok now. The wolves were already in the flock before Jesus dien.
Well let's start with Luke 10.3,
Acts 29.29&30
Col 2.8-9, 21.22
2 pet 2.2

So with evil in the flock during the apostolic age. Your saying that some how man straightened up and overcame .

So between that time and the early 4th century the priesthood declared the word of God to you by going from meek men to those wearing gold and living rich.

Oh ya. The congregation was also told what to believe and killed when they wouldn't comply

And you to this day still put your faith in that.

In in shock that people believe stories over the actual words. You have taken away from the book. Beware beware

 

[Arthur81]

Firts. Thank you for adding verse refs. I appreciate it.

Your words.. which addresses what is known as The Humiliation of Christ in taking on human form,

Again this statement is a tradition of man that is post biblical. It is biased due to trinitarian beliefs which are not supported by the actual words in the bible.

First off my God would never humiliate anyone. Especially his only begotten. He loved us so much. And I am sure he loves his first creation that much rev 3.14.

Jesus was made a little lower that the angels so that he could suffer death. This verse is plain and simple. Hods word is plain and simple. It doesn't need man's theories to teach truth

There is NO salvation for angels. For God to bring His children back to him he made Jesus and us to die once . This was so that the last sin (death) could be overcome. So that we too will sit with Jesus his throne as joint heirs. Rom 8.17

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (Rev 3:14 KJV)

If you wish to stay with the KJV, which is a great translation, you must use a dictionary that is somewhere close to the KJV in time, and the KJV we use is the 1769. Therefore, what does the word "beginning" mean? We are not permitted to invent our own definitions, so from the 1828 Webster's English Dictionary, on the noun "beginning" we have the following -

BEGIN'NING, n. The first cause; origin.
I am the beginning and the ending. Rev 1.
1. That which is first; the first state; commencement; entrance into being.
In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1.
3. The rudiments, first ground or materials.
Mighty things from small beginnings grow

The Son of God was the origin or first cause of the creation, NOT the first created. Modern translations are in agreement with the KJV here:

“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the origin of God’s creation:" (Rev 3:14 NRSV)

‘To the angel of the church at Laodicea write: ‘“These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the source of God’s creation: (Rev 3:14 REB)

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'This is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the origin of all that God has created.'" (Rev 3:14 GNB92)

 

[XFire]

Arthur81. You are putting the words from the pulpit over the words of our savior. Rev 3 14 precede John 1.1..3.
Please watch the movie a lamp in the dark.

 

[Bob Estey]

All MY discussions is from KJV
Lets start with Heb 1 4..7 ... these versus implies that Jesus was the first creation but that God the Father created the angels. We could imply many many other things from those versus but I won't do this at this time.
And again heb 2.7 implies that Jesus did not create the angels by stating that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels


On replies please list the versus ref by you as I was told I was rude for not adding those type of references

I am one of those who believes that Jesus is God in flesh.

 

[Arthur81]

Arthur81. You are putting the words from the pulpit over the words of our savior. Rev 3 14 precede John 1.1..3.
Please watch the movie a lamp in the dark.

You need to learn how to read!

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:1-3 KJV)

"In the beginning the Word already was. The Word was in God’s presence, and what God was, the Word was. He was with God at the beginning, and through him all things came to be; without him no created thing came into being." (John 1:1-3 REB)

The NET translator's note in reference to the REB translation -

Or “and what God was the Word was.” Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of θεός (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb. A definite meaning for the term is reflected in the traditional rendering “the word was God.” From a technical standpoint, though, it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to anarthrous θεός in John 1:1c (ExSyn 266-69). Translations like the NEB, REB, and Moffatt are helpful in capturing the sense in John 1:1c, that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). However, in contemporary English “the Word was divine” (Moffatt) does not quite catch the meaning since “divine” as a descriptive term is not used in contemporary English exclusively of God. The translation “what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too. This points to unity of essence between the Father and the Son without equating the persons.

 

[Hillsage]

In Rev 3:14, Jesus calls himself...”the Amen....the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God”. So the prehuman Jesus is God’s first creation.

I thought the PRE-INCARMATE Jesus was the WORD. So are you saying GOD made the WORD? That's a problem. As for God's first creation...we aren't talking about the first Adam who wasn't 'born'. We are talking about the "last Adam" born with a quickening spirit in him....the spirit of Christ.

1CO 15:45* And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Col 1:15-17 calls Jesus “the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”. Plain and simple....no interpretation necessary.

Your last quote said Jesus was God's first "CREATION". Now you're quoting a verse saying Jesus was "THE FIRSTBORN". So I think that maybe an "interpretation is necessary." The invisible spirit WORD became visible human sinful flesh, just like we were born with. And scripture says Jesus had to be made just like "his brethren".

"Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people."

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh
Without fighting the sinful nature Jesus was not made like us in every respect.

Paul goes on to say....”by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible”.....”by means of him” meaning that the prehuman Jesus was the means by which all creation came about...the “invisible” things would include the spirit beings we call angels".

”All things have been created through him and for him.”
Which means that he was the agency “through whom” God created all things. And just to be sure, he emphasised again....”he is before all things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist”.

This places Jesus as the unique creation that he was....”the only begotten son of God”....his “firstborn”.....the only being in creation who was directly created by his Father.

Adam was the first SON OF GOD

"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God."

Jesus was born with the spirit of Christ in him coming out of the womb. You and I weren't. But then, neither were we "brethren" to Jesus until our spirit got born again, into the spirit of "Christ in us".

"Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, "

Don’t we have to ask...”what beginning” is this, since the eternal God had no beginning?

The prehuman Jesus was “the beginning of God’s creation”. He was his Father’s “Logos” or spokesman...a role he payed down through history when God spoke to man. To Adam in the garden.....to the prophets of old....to Abraham at Mamre....to Moses in the burning bush and in the Tabernacle before the Shekinah light.

Holy spirit produced the man Jesus, who became the Christ. He existed in heaven as a spirit being before his earthly mission and became, in every respect, a mortal human, born of a woman, but without inherited sin because he was not a son of Adam. “The Word (Logos) became flesh”.

The spirit body he had before his earthly life, was restored when God resurrected him. He was “put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18) The body he sacrificed was gone and he remained on earth in spirit form for 40 days, “appearing” to his disciples on many occasions to prove that his God and Father had raised him from the dead. (Acts 1:3)

Yes a study of just what creation is being spoken of is huge. Because we are not talking about the FIRST ADAM or original creation of GOD making the heavens and earth etc. We are talking about the NEW CREATION which began with the "Last Adam".

2CO 5:17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
GAL 6:15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Only thing that makes us SONS OF GOD is when our spirits are born again and we have the same spirit in us that God placed into the egg of Mary. From Mary Jesus was made the son of man, and from the spirit of Christ Jesus was made the son of God.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Again you listen to the reactions of man. If you can't belive the words of Jesus about himself then Satan has blinded you.

Your responses are accusatory and not open to discussion.
If you want to open dialogue, then respond without the condemnation just because someone disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures. Who says your way of viewing this is the correct one?

Ok now. The wolves were already in the flock before Jesus dien.
Well let's start with Luke 10.3,
Acts 29.29&30
Col 2.8-9, 21.22
2 pet 2.2

So with evil in the flock during the apostolic age. Your saying that some how man straightened up and overcame .

I am saying (if you are addressing me) that Jesus said that “weeds” would infiltrated the Christian faith....a fake, poisoned counterfeit sown by the devil, that would be allowed to “grow together” with the “wheat” sown by the Christ. That being the case, even though the weeds came in and virtually took over, that didn’t mean that the “wheat” disappeared.....the “weeds” all but choked them out, (as any gardener knows) but they did not disappear altogether. History is littered with those who died because they courageously stood up to the power of the church.......who gained that power and momentum when an astute Roman Emperor saw an opportunity to consolidate his divided empire by introducing a single state religion mandated for all, fusing together the pagan sun worship of Rome with a very weakened form of Christianity in the centuries following the death of the apostles. So, yes.....”the wolves” were then very obvious in their agenda......used by the devil to create a “Christianity” that Jesus would never recognise. (Matt 7:21-23)

So between that time and the early 4th century the priesthood declared the word of God to you by going from meek men to those wearing gold and living rich.

Oh ya. The congregation was also told what to believe and killed when they wouldn't comply

And you to this day still put your faith in that.

That was the very reason why I left Christendom....the leadership of the counterfeit church led the people into an uncontrolled apostasy, introducing all manner of teachings and traditions that had no place in the life of a Christian. I have not had faith in that sham for many decades. (Rev 18:4-5)

In in shock that people believe stories over the actual words. You have taken away from the book. Beware beware

You know, it would help immensely if you actually quoted the person you are addressing and cited scripture correctly. (e.g. Acts 29:29-30, Col 2:8-9, it is then not just a jumble of numbers with a period instead of a semi-colon.)

People are free to believe as they wish...their own hearts are either drawing them to God’s truth or repelling them as something foreign because indoctrination has put up a barrier to the truth......only God can remove the barrier....and only if the heart is not closed by stubborn adherence to something that they find attractive, but isn’t true. (John 6:44, 65)

Now perhaps you can open your heart to accept that people will believe only what their heart wants to believe....it is the way God tests all of us to see if the truth resonates...or if it is rejected. We are the ones who dictate our own destiny by how we accept what God’s true servants teach who are instructed to go out to the people with his message of the Kingdom (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)......we have to be eating at the “table of Jehovah” instead of feasting on the poison dished up to those who are attracted to the food served at the devil’s table. His spiritual junk food does not promote unity or peace, but draws people to support the political nations of this world of whom he is it’s god and ruler. (1 John 5:19; John 17:16; John 18:36)

Do you stay separate from the world as Jesus said we must.....or are you a part of it?
Friendship with the world makes one an enemy of God. (James 4:4)

 

[Aunty Jane]

I thought the PRE-INCARMATE Jesus was the WORD. So are you saying GOD made the WORD? That's a problem.

It is only a problem if you believe that the Word is Jehovah. “The Word” is a title given to the pre-human Jesus as one who spoke for his Father....as his representative......but it also means “the word of God” in written form, recorded for our instruction and guidance.

As for God's first creation...we aren't talking about the first Adam who wasn't 'born'. We are talking about the "last Adam" born with a quickening spirit in him....the spirit of Christ.

1CO 15:45* And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Your last quote said Jesus was God's first "CREATION". Now you're quoting a verse saying Jesus was "THE FIRSTBORN". So I think that maybe an "interpretation is necessary." The invisible spirit WORD became visible human sinful flesh, just like we were born with. And scripture says Jesus had to be made just like "his brethren".

"Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people."

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh
Without fighting the sinful nature Jesus was not made like us in every respect.

So the scriptures that tell us that Jesus was NOT like the sinful human race for which he was sacrificing his life, are not true? (Heb 4:15; Heb 7:26) Do you understand the mechanics of redemption? Christ’s sacrifice is called a “ransom”......an exact price demanded for the release of captives. A sinless life was lost, and only a sinless life could be offered to pay it.

Being “in the likeness of Adam” did not make Jesus sinful....he was like Adam BECAUSE he was NOT born in sin like the human race descended from Adam. By becoming “the last Adam” (also created sinless) he paid for what the first Adam did, cancelling the debt and redeeming his children.

I always have to smile at the word “quickening” and ask what the average person reading that word today would think it means...? Hardly something we would say today, is it? It’s one of the reasons why I ditched the old KJV a very long time ago....outdated language is just confusing, especially to new Bible students.

Adam was the first SON OF GOD

"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God."

I’m afraid that God had many “sons” even before the creation of the universe....
Job 38:4-7.....Job was asked....

“Where were you when I founded the earth?
Tell me, if you think you understand.

5 Who set its measurements, in case you know,
Or who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 Into what were its pedestals sunk,
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?”

So “the (firstborn) son of God” was created first, and all other things came into existence through his agency. (Col 1:15-17) He is the “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26.

“This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (John 1:2-3) There it is...in plain English.

Jesus was born with the spirit of Christ in him coming out of the womb. You and I weren't. But then, neither were we "brethren" to Jesus until our spirit got born again, into the spirit of "Christ in us".

"Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, "

Jesus was born like any other normal, mortal human.....it was his origin that made his sinless condition possible. God provided the ransom for Adam’s children by producing another sinless human to pay it.

His “brethren” were his “brothers”.....those whom he would take to heaven with him. They are not his sons but fellow “sons of God”.
The criteria of his judging between “the sheep and the goats” was the support given to his “brothers” by the sheep. So the “sheep” are not his “brothers”, but those who support them. (Matt 25:31-34; 41; 45-46)

Yes a study of just what creation is being spoken of is huge. Because we are not talking about the FIRST ADAM or original creation of GOD making the heavens and earth etc. We are talking about the NEW CREATION which began with the "Last Adam".

2CO 5:17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
GAL 6:15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Only thing that makes us SONS OF GOD is when our spirits are born again and we have the same spirit in us that God placed into the egg of Mary. From Mary Jesus was made the son of man, and from the spirit of Christ Jesus was made the son of God.

Yes, but the distinction I would make is that there are Christ’s “brothers”, chosen by God to rule as “kings and priests” in heaven with their Lord and King (Rev 20:6) and there are those over who these ones will rule on earth. Two distinct groups.....not all Christians will go to heaven....paradise will be restored right here on earth.

God’s first purpose to have an earth “filled” with Adam’s perfect children never went away....when the devil tempted the first humans into sin, Jehovah did not abandon his first purpose....he merely took a detour to give all of us and his angelic sons, a demonstration of what the abuse of free will leads to.....the world we have endured for thousands of years in suffering and turmoil, with man trying to rule himself unsuccessfully generation after generation. Have we got the message yet?

Humans were never designed to rule themselves, so that when they do, it throughly corrupts them, leading to bloodshed and coming under the overpowering will of those in authority. When has human rulership ever succeeded in the people being happy and living in peace and security for any length of time? Things can change overnight and there is little we can do to stop what will happen next. The Bible tells us what is coming....the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen.....(Matt 24:21)

The Bible gives us hope that this world of wicked mankind will be taken out, and replaced by the one we should have had from the beginning.....not a new planet or universe, because there is no defect in any of that.....it is the wicked humans who live here that need to be evicted so that God’s purpose for us can finally be achieved. (Isa 55:11)

Rev 21:2-4 is confirmation that this will be our future...if we remain faithful to God in all things.
“ I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

For the majority of “mankind” earth will be their permanent home as it was always intended to be....and for a privileged “few” it will mean a complete transformation in their physical form to put on the same kind of body that Jesus was given at his resurrection.....a spirit body, so as to live in the spirit realm. These “joint-heirs with Christ”, chosen by God for this role, will be the perfect ruling body to bring us back to the Father in reconciliation, eliminating the debilitating effects of sin, and having the kind of rulership that is peaceful, incorruptible, and everlasting. A complete restoration of a paradise earth for which we were designed.

 

[XFire]

I am one of those who believes that Jes

I thought the PRE-INCARMATE Jesus was the WORD. So are you saying GOD made the WORD? That's a problem. As for God's first creation...we aren't talking about the first Adam who wasn't 'born'. We are talking about the "last Adam" born with a quickening spirit in him....the spirit of Christ.

1CO 15:45* And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.



Your last quote said Jesus was God's first "CREATION". Now you're quoting a verse saying Jesus was "THE FIRSTBORN". So I think that maybe an "interpretation is necessary." The invisible spirit WORD became visible human sinful flesh, just like we were born with. And scripture says Jesus had to be made just like "his brethren".

"Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people."

ROM 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh
Without fighting the sinful nature Jesus was not made like us in every respect.

Adam was the first SON OF GOD

"Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God."

Jesus was born with the spirit of Christ in him coming out of the womb. You and I weren't. But then, neither were we "brethren" to Jesus until our spirit got born again, into the spirit of "Christ in us".

"Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, "



Yes a study of just what creation is being spoken of is huge. Because we are not talking about the FIRST ADAM or original creation of GOD making the heavens and earth etc. We are talking about the NEW CREATION which began with the "Last Adam".

2CO 5:17 Therefore, if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come.
GAL 6:15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Only thing that makes us SONS OF GOD is when our spirits are born again and we have the same spirit in us that God placed into the egg of Mary. From Mary Jesus was made the son of man, and from the spirit of Christ Jesus was made the son of God.

us is God in

Your responses are accusatory and not open to discussion.
If you want to open dialogue, then respond without the condemnation just because someone disagrees with your interpretation of the scriptures. Who says your way of viewing this is the correct one?

I am saying (if you are addressing me) that Jesus said that “weeds” would infiltrated the Christian faith....a fake, poisoned counterfeit sown by the devil, that would be allowed to “grow together” with the “wheat” sown by the Christ. That being the case, even though the weeds came in and virtually took over, that didn’t mean that the “wheat” disappeared.....the “weeds” all but choked them out, (as any gardener knows) but they did not disappear altogether. History is littered with those who died because they courageously stood up to the power of the church.......who gained that power and momentum when an astute Roman Emperor saw an opportunity to consolidate his divided empire by introducing a single state religion mandated for all, fusing together the pagan sun worship of Rome with a very weakened form of Christianity in the centuries following the death of the apostles. So, yes.....”the wolves” were then very obvious in their agenda......used by the devil to create a “Christianity” that Jesus would never recognise. (Matt 7:21-23)

That was the very reason why I left Christendom....the leadership of the counterfeit church led the people into an uncontrolled apostasy, introducing all manner of teachings and traditions that had no place in the life of a Christian. I have not had faith in that sham for many decades. (Rev 18:4-5)

You know, it would help immensely if you actually quoted the person you are addressing and cited scripture correctly. (e.g. Acts 29:29-30, Col 2:8-9, it is then not just a jumble of numbers with a period instead of a semi-colon.)

People are free to believe as they wish...their own hearts are either drawing them to God’s truth or repelling them as something foreign because indoctrination has put up a barrier to the truth......only God can remove the barrier....and only if the heart is not closed by stubborn adherence to something that they find attractive, but isn’t true. (John 6:44, 65)

Now perhaps you can open your heart to accept that people will believe only what their heart wants to believe....it is the way God tests all of us to see if the truth resonates...or if it is rejected. We are the ones who dictate our own destiny by how we accept what God’s true servants teach who are instructed to go out to the people with his message of the Kingdom (Matt 24:14; Matt 28:19-20)......we have to be eating at the “table of Jehovah” instead of feasting on the poison dished up to those who are attracted to the food served at the devil’s table. His spiritual junk food does not promote unity or peace, but draws people to support the political nations of this world of whom he is it’s god and ruler. (1 John 5:19; John 17:16; John 18:36)

Do you stay separate from the world as Jesus said we must.....or are you a part of it?
Friendship with the world makes one an enemy of God. (James 4:4)

Alright. I apologize.

Ref rev 3.14. "The Faithful and true witness"
In rev 19 again states that this is Jesus. "The word of God.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.