Did the messengers lie about Jesus coming in the first century?

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ewq1938

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Okay Ewq1938 thank you for sharing what you believe, I appreciate it.


None of the Olivet Discourse has happened yet. The beast of Rev 13 has not risen, nor has been defeated, the two witnesses haven't appeared nor been killed etc. You have simply misunderstood a few scriptures thinking somehow the second coming (the greatest and most world changing event) has already happened when it's clear it of course has not happened.
 

ScottA

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He never said that about the second coming.




Clarke:

Dr. Lightfoot supposes the meaning to be: “Ye shall not have traveled over the cities of Israel, preaching the Gospel, before the Son of man is revealed by his resurrection, Rom_1:4; compare Act_3:19, Act_3:20; Act_5:26. To you first, God, raising up his Son, sent him to bless you, etc. The epoch of the Messiah is dated from the resurrection of Christ.” After all, the place may be understood literally; for τελειν τας πολεις, to finish the cities, is only a concise mode of speech, for τελειν οδον δια τας πολεις, to complete the journey through the cities. To finish the survey, to preach in every one: - till the Son of man be come, may refer either to the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of pentecost, or to the subversion of the Jewish state.
Maybe reason and truth has not been the best appeal. --I mean, "Who has believed our report?"

Certainly not many.​

If you all will not consider what Jesus Himself said about coming "soon" and all "the things which must shortly take place", and all His personal words to those of that very generation, saying to them--not "your children" or "your descendants'--but saying "you" (will see me coming), "you" this and "you" that...then perhaps you all will rather consider:
  • His parable of warning to those who say, "My Master is delaying his coming."
  • The need to manufacture a "gap" in Daniel's prophecy which in all the details he did not refer to.
  • The fact that His apostles expected His "soon" return.
  • His warning that He was "coming when you do not expect."
  • Peter's foretelling of "false teachers" entering into the church "secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them."
  • Paul's foretelling of great apostacy for believing a "lie", a "falling away" from the truth, and "strong delusion."
All biblical facts...making it most obvious that you all don't believe or care about the facts. Nonetheless, this is the foundation upon what you all now were taught (including those same false teachings). And what? Out of the midst of all that evil, you now believe you have been on a straight path this whole time?

Best think again.
 

ScottA

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None of the Olivet Discourse has happened yet. The beast of Rev 13 has not risen, nor has been defeated, the two witnesses haven't appeared nor been killed etc. You have simply misunderstood a few scriptures thinking somehow the second coming (the greatest and most world changing event) has already happened when it's clear it of course has not happened.
None of that is correct.

I recommend we take them one at a time (because your believe is 2,000 years off track), so I will start with the beast of Rev 13:

The beast that rises up out of the sea, is the devil, Satan, who was given power over the whole world since the beginning--which cannot biblically be denied.​

What next?
 

Mr E

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Everything that we have that Jesus accomplished was accepted on our behalf…. by God.

The sacrifice, the sin atonement, ….etc.

~ Here is something to throw into your question ~

Where is the holy of holies?

Here it is …And it is very interesting.

The body of Christ (that’s us) has become the holy naos and it will be that way until this dispensation (administration) of Grace ceases at the rapture. It then reverts back to a physical structure in Revelation.

The Temple gives reference to the body of Christ (as a group) be it a smaller gathering or the entire body of believers ….. The following verses all employ the Greek word Naos and encompasses only the period of the grace administration.

1Co 3:16 & 3:17, 1Co 6:19, 2Co 6:16, Eph 2:21.


As individual believer in the following verses….. we are referred to as the tabernacle…..which also changes after this administration of grace ceases at the rapture.

2Co 5:1, 2Co 5:4, skēnos Heb 8:2, Heb 9:11, skēnē 2Pe 1:13, 2Pe 1:14 skēnōma




Regarding Act 1:6 & 7 Israel is held in abeyance until this administration (dispensation) of grace ceases…..it picks up again in Revelation chapter 18 …. I think.

It was held in abeyance because this entire administration of grace was not known of or about ….it was a mystery (secret) kept hidden in/with God

Rom 8:10, Gal 2:20, Col 1:27


We are the house. We are the temple. We are the body of Christ. We are the tent, the tabernacle, the host of heaven.
 

MatthewG

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None of the Olivet Discourse has happened yet. The beast of Rev 13 has not risen, nor has been defeated, the two witnesses haven't appeared nor been killed etc. You have simply misunderstood a few scriptures thinking somehow the second coming (the greatest and most world changing event) has already happened when it's clear it of course has not happened.

Why do you believe that none of the Olivet Discourse has happened, ewq?

The reason I believe everything has happened is through understanding that with-in a Generation, Jesus promised that all of those things would happen along with his return.

Why would Jesus lie to his disciples?
 

ewq1938

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Why do you believe that none of the Olivet Discourse has happened, ewq?

Because the main events have not happened. We would know if a large amount of people saw Christ returning and angels gathering the elect. The disciples weren't gathered by angels and if they aren't elect, then no one is.


Why would Jesus lie to his disciples?

Jesus never lied. Why would you think he did?
 
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MatthewG

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Because the main events have not happened. We would know if a large amount of people saw Christ returning and angels gathering the elect. The disciples weren't gathered by angels and if they aren't elect, then no one is.




Jesus never lied. Why would you think he did?

There are some historical accounts that match from secular writers like Tactius, Suetonius, Cassio Dio, and Jospehus. The task is daunting but the proofs can be found to match up to what Jesus Christ had explained to the 4 Disciples on the Olivet Discourse, along also with the writings of Revelation. When I was around the age of 20 years old, there was a time that I had went to college (though not too long I hated school), the college assigned me to an Religion Class, which one day on an off day I decided to go up there with the class he was with and sat down. Some people had been asking before entering the room about the name of 666 and what it meant. Having sat down at the moment the teacher went on to explain it down to Nero Caeser who was also known as the Beast, from having slaughtered Christians for the time he was alive, then he was said to have resurrected even (because in that day they had statues of the Emperors so that the people in that culture living in Rome, would believe the Emperoer had Omnisence like God.

Anyway, just desired to explain that, there is some evidence out there, that points to a different view, and not many people may even know about it. I believe Jesus Christ did come and return to those who were actively waiting, watching and was saved from the Wrath of God, which poured out on the material nation of Israel. Jesus Christ never lied, he told the truth, and there is no written record of it anywhere that they were taken. Why? I believe because they were taken, and no one was there to write about it, and I believe that by faith.

May be a long stretch but it is a very good case in my best estimation.
 

ewq1938

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Jesus Christ never lied, he told the truth, and there is no written record of it anywhere that they were taken.


Because they weren't taken.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Far worse things have happened since AD70. This verse has not been fulfilled.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Nothing like this has happened. If it did, it would be known history.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


None of those events have happened.


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The tribes of the Earth will SEE Jesus return. That has not happened either.


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Also did not happen. If these events didn't happen then the events that happen just prior to these also did not happen resulting in NONE of the Olivet discourse has been fulfilled in the past.
 
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MatthewG

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Not going to sit here and debate about it, thank you @ewq1938

Just desired to go ahead and share this with anyone who desires to read.

Thank you.

There are some historical accounts that match from secular writers like Tactius, Suetonius, Cassio Dio, and Jospehus. The task is daunting but the proofs can be found to match up to what Jesus Christ had explained to the 4 Disciples on the Olivet Discourse, along also with the writings of Revelation. When I was around the age of 20 years old, there was a time that I had went to college (though not too long I hated school), the college assigned me to an Religion Class, which one day on an off day I decided to go up there with the class he was with and sat down. Some people had been asking before entering the room about the name of 666 and what it meant. Having sat down at the moment the teacher went on to explain it down to Nero Caeser who was also known as the Beast, from having slaughtered Christians for the time he was alive, then he was said to have resurrected even (because in that day they had statues of the Emperors so that the people in that culture living in Rome, would believe the Emperoer had Omnisence like God.

Anyway, just desired to explain that, there is some evidence out there, that points to a different view, and not many people may even know about it. I believe Jesus Christ did come and return to those who were actively waiting, watching and was saved from the Wrath of God, which poured out on the material nation of Israel. Jesus Christ never lied, he told the truth, and there is no written record of it anywhere that they were taken. Why? I believe because they were taken, and no one was there to write about it, and I believe that by faith.

May be a long stretch but it is a very good case in my best estimation.

The only ones who would see him return was those looking for him. Not unbelievers. I believe that occured in 70AD with the promised destruction and return. It's up to people to read and look and see by using the bible and decide for themselves. As you can see I have already made up my mind about it. May the Spirit lead.

Best regards,
Matthew Gallagher
 

MatthewG

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None of that is correct.

I recommend we take them one at a time (because your believe is 2,000 years off track), so I will start with the beast of Rev 13:

The beast that rises up out of the sea, is the devil, Satan, who was given power over the whole world since the beginning--which cannot biblically be denied.​

What next?

Scott,

Have you ever heard about the Beast relating to Nero Ceaser?
 

MatthewG

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Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (/ˈnɪəroʊ/ NEER-oh; born Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus; 15 December AD 37 – 9 June AD 68), was the fifth Roman emperor and final emperor of the Julio-Claudian dynasty, reigning from AD 54 until his death in AD 68. He was adopted by the Roman emperor Claudius at the age of 13 and succeeded him on the throne. Nero was popular with the members of his Praetorian Guard and lower-class commoners in Rome and its provinces, but he was deeply resented by the Roman aristocracy. Most contemporary sources describe him as tyrannical, self-indulgent, and debauched. After being declared a public enemy by the Roman Senate, he committed suicide at age 30.

Nero was born at Antium in AD 37, the son of Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus and Agrippina the Younger, a great-granddaughter of the emperor Augustus. When Nero was two years old, his father died. His mother married the emperor Claudius, who eventually adopted Nero as his heir; when Claudius died in 54, Nero became emperor with the support of the Praetorian Guard and the Senate. In the early years of his reign Nero was advised and guided by his mother Agrippina, his tutor Seneca the Younger, and his praetorian prefect Sextus Afranius Burrus, but he soon sought to rule independently and to rid himself of restraining influences. His power struggle with his mother was eventually resolved when he had her murdered. Roman sources also implicate Nero in the deaths of his wife Claudia Octavia – supposedly so that he could marry Poppaea Sabina – and of his foster-brother Britannicus.

Nero's practical contributions to Rome's governance focused on diplomacy, trade, and culture. He ordered the construction of amphitheaters, and promoted athletic games and contests. He also made public appearances as an actor, poet, musician, and charioteer, which scandalised his aristocratic contemporaries as these occupations were usually the domain of slaves, public entertainers and infamous persons. The provision of such entertainments made Nero popular among lower-class citizens, but his performances undermined the Imperial dignity. The costs involved were borne by local elites either directly or through taxation, and were much resented.

During Nero's reign, the general Corbulo fought the Roman–Parthian War of 58–63, and made peace with the hostile Parthian Empire. The Roman general Suetonius Paulinus quashed a major revolt in Britain led by the Iceni's queen Boudica. The Bosporan Kingdom was briefly annexed to the empire, and the First Jewish–Roman War began. When the Roman senator Vindex rebelled, with support from the eventual Roman emperor Galba, Nero was declared a public enemy and condemned to death in absentia. He fled Rome, and on 9 June AD 68 he committed suicide. His death sparked a brief period of civil war known as the Year of the Four Emperors.

Most Roman sources offer overwhelmingly negative assessments of his personality and reign. The historian Tacitus claims the Roman people thought him compulsive and corrupt. Suetonius tells that many Romans believed that the Great Fire of Rome was instigated by Nero to clear land for his planned "Golden House". Tacitus claims that Nero seized Christians as scapegoats for the fire and had them burned alive, seemingly motivated not by public justice but by personal cruelty. Some modern historians question the reliability of the ancient sources on Nero's tyrannical acts, considering his popularity among the Roman commoners. In the eastern provinces of the Empire, a popular legend arose that Nero had not died and would return. After his death, at least three leaders of short-lived, failed rebellions presented themselves as "Nero reborn" in order to gain popular support.

Source: wikipedia.
 

ewq1938

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The only ones who would see him return was those looking for him. Not unbelievers.

That's not what the bible tells us:

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The tribes of the Earth will SEE Jesus return. They are not believers. They will MOURN when the SEE Jesus return.
 
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MatthewG

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Yes. Strong's Greek: 5443. φυλή (phulé) -- a clan or tribe

Also there is this if you would like to consider it part of the tribes.

The tribes having mourned, could be for the lost, or something as they see the Son of man coming. ( I could be wrong though)

I'll help as much as I can, @ewq1938 friend, but I have pretty much ran out of resources now. Thank you for your patience.

Revelation 7​

Young's Literal Translation​

7 And after these things I saw four messengers, standing upon the four corners of the land, holding the four winds of the land, that the wind may not blow upon the land, nor upon the sea, nor upon any tree;
2 and I saw another messenger going up from the rising of the sun, having a seal of the living God, and he did cry with a great voice to the four messengers, to whom it was given to injure the land and the sea, saying,
3 `Do not injure the land, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we may seal the servants of our God upon their foreheads.'
4 And I heard the number of those sealed, (144 thousands were sealed out of all the tribes of the sons of Israel):
5 of the tribe of Judah 12 thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Reuben 12 thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Gad 12 thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher 12 thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Naphtali 12 thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Manasseh 12 thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon 12 thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Levi 12 thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Issachar 12 thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun 12 thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Joseph 12 thousand were sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin 12 thousand were sealed.
9 After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands,
10 and crying with a great voice, saying, `The salvation [is] to Him who is sitting upon the throne -- to our God, and to the Lamb!'
11 And all the messengers stood around the throne, and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their face, and bowed before God,
12 saying, `Amen! the blessing, and the glory, and the wisdom, and the thanksgiving, and the honour, and the power, and the strength, [are] to our God -- to the ages of the ages! Amen!'
13 And answer did one of the elders, saying to me, `These, who have been arrayed with the white robes -- who are they, and whence came they?'
14 and I have said to him, `Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, `These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb;
15 because of this are they before the throne of God, and they do service to Him day and night in His sanctuary, and He who is sitting upon the throne shall tabernacle over them;
16 they shall not hunger any more, nor may the sun fall upon them, nor any heat,
17 because the Lamb that [is] in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters, and wipe away shall God every tear from their eyes.'
 
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ewq1938

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So, it is false that Christ has returned in the past because history would have recorded it because the tribes of the Earth are prophesied to see Christ return. It is false that only believers are supposed to see Christ return. Scripture states that every eye will see Him, Rev 1.
 

MatthewG

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Not if you believe by faith, with checking the historical accounts, including which was suggested.

Jesus was said to return to retrieve his bride, in that generation.

Anyway thank you for your interest in chatting about it.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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“The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: to whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: and, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭1:1-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Acts 1:1-11 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto th | King James Version (KJV) | Download The Bible App Now

Do you believe that Jesus would return to these people then in that age?

Back in the Old Testament day a priest had to come in to bring forth blood for their sins.

Jesus was ascended promised to come back, it would be a picture and type of how the Old Testament would work in the temple. The priest had to come back out to show that the offering was accepted.

Therefore either Jesus returned in that day in age or his blood was never accepted and He is still in the holy of holies waiting to come out, for thousands of years.

How does that make sense?
You’re making a lot of assumptions (we all do) that don’t make sense to me. I think you don’t have all the verses you need In addition to the assumptions you add to what you read.

For instance, when scripture says, He will come again in the same manner you saw Him go, you assume it means they will be still living on earth at that time. But it doesn’t say that. You have assumed that. But then it would read something like this: you yourselves will see Him come back in the same manner you have seen Him go.

Also, Jesus said, I will not leave you orphans. I will ask the Father and He will send another Helper, the Holy Spirit. He did not say, I will ask the Father and He will send Me back to you. He said the Holy Spirit would be sent.
 
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MatthewG

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From what I can tell the biggest problem with having Jesus Christ returned in that generation which he spoke about is that where is the hope at?

If Jesus Christ doesn't return with-in a generation now today in modern times what does that mean for us today as Christans?

It also interferes with a lot of teachings in many different churches out there that still preaching that Jesus Christ is coming back very soon today.

My encouragement for anyone who may read this is to consider the bible, and really consider who Jesus Christ talking to in that day in age, its not just a fairly tale or a good story book just to make us feel good. It has all kinds of things with-in there that help a person to turn towards God and towards to light with many destructive things that happened materially through-out the dawn of creation.


So if someone asked me what is my hope if you already believe Jesus Christ came back? My response is this, people are able to have new relationship with God if they choose to turn towards Him, and the very way to get to him is by and through the Lord Jesus Christ, and to encourage people to read the bible and see what it says itself.

There is comfort found from God, and knowing that the Spirit of Christ is with you, that you are loved by God and cared about through and through in sickness and in health.

From my perspective I do not need to see Jesus Christ return to believe and have faith in him and find rest and peace. I believe by faith with hope that he is there with me and desires for all us to be confident in these things which we can not see.
 

MatthewG

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You’re making a lot of assumptions (we all do) that don’t make sense to me. I think you don’t have all the verses you need In addition to the assumptions you add to what you read.

Hello there SBG,

May the Spirit guide, and may God be glorified.
For instance, when scripture says, He will come again in the same manner you saw Him go, you assume it means they will be still living on earth at that time. But it doesn’t say that. You have assumed that. But then it would read something like this: you yourselves will see Him come back in the same manner you have seen Him go.

Yep, that is exactly what it means to me from my perspective. That is what the bible states, so I believe those in 70AD, who were looking and watching, were taken, as the wrath of God fell down on Jerusalem by faith, its not written anywhere. This is where the decision has to be made is does one simply believe that Jesus Christ lied or not to that generation. That choice is totally dependent on the individual and also between God and individual.

Also, Jesus said, I will not leave you orphans. I will ask the Father and He will send another Helper, the Holy Spirit. He did not say, I will ask the Father and He will send Me back to you. He said the Holy Spirit would be sent.

From my understand by and through the Lord Jesus Christ, God have given you yourself the holy spirit by faith, according to Paul.