Discerning : The Water Cults

[Eternally Grateful]

Sacraments are not "good deeds" nor are they "works".

That is a LIE propagated by Protestant teachers, books, videos and so on.
...First, though: some preliminary observations. As usual, you are unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. We believe we can cooperate with God’s grace in order to “merit.” Yet that very merit is itself completely an act of God’s grace. Here is some more relevant information to consider:

The Second Council of Orange (529 A.D.), accepted as dogma by the Catholic Church, dogmatically taught in its Canon 7:

If anyone asserts that we can, by our natural powers, think as we ought, or choose any good pertaining to the salvation of eternal life . . . without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit . . . he is misled by a heretical spirit . . . [goes on to cite Jn 15:5, 2 Cor 3:5]​

Likewise, the ecumenical Council of Trent (1545-63): Chapter 5, Decree on Justification:

. . . Man . . . is not able, by his own free-will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.
​

Yet the "works salvation myth" continues...

Canon I on Justification:

If anyone saith that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.​

The existence of a measure of human free will in order for man to cooperate with God’s grace does not reduce inevitably and necessarily to Semi-Pelagianism, as Luther, Calvin, and present-day Calvinists wrongly charge. The Catholic view is a third way. Our “meritorious actions” are always necessarily preceded and caused and crowned and bathed in God’s enabling grace. But this doesn’t wipe out our cooperation, which is not intrinsically meritorious in the sense that it derives from us and not God . . . Second Orange again:

The reward given for good works is not won by reason of actions which precede grace, but grace, which is unmerited, precedes actions in order that they may be accomplished meritoriously.​

Catholic theologian Ludwig Ott describes the Catholic view:

As God’s grace is the presupposition and foundation of supernatural good works, by which man merits eternal life, so salutary works are, at the same time gifts of God and meritorious acts of man. (Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books, 1974 [orig. 1952], 264)​

St. Augustine wrote:

What merit of man is there before grace by which he can achieve grace, as only grace works every one of our good merits in us, and as God, when He crowns our merits, crowns nothing else but His own gifts? (Ep. 194, 5, 19; in Ott, 265)

The Lord has made Himself a debtor, not by receiving, but by promising. Man cannot say to Him, “Give back what thou hast received” but only “Give what thou hast promised.” (Enarr. in Ps 83, 16; in Ott, 267)​

The concept of merit and its corollary reward is well-supported in Scripture (Mt 5:12; 19:17, 21, 29; 25:21; 25:34 ff.; Lk 6:38; Rom 2:6; 1 Cor 3:8; 9:17; Col 3:24; Heb 6:10; 10:35; 11:6; 2 Tim 4:8; Eph 6:8).

So, with that background, let’s look at the Premm quote (Dogmatic Theology for the Laity, Rev. Matthias Premm, Rockford, Illinois: TAN Books and Publishers, 1977 [orig. 1967, by the Society of St. Paul] in broad context (pp. 261-264 — emphasis in original — , with McCarthy’s citations bracketed and in blue):

"...McCarthy says: It is universally accepted dogma of the Catholic Church that man, in union with the grace of the Holy Spirit must merit heaven by his good works.

. . . . The Catholic Church was right in maintaining against Luther, at the Council of Trent, that heaven is merited by our good works, because this is the clear teaching of revelation. “We have shown that according to Holy Scripture the Christian can actually merit heaven for himself by his good works. But we must realize that these works have to be performed in the state of grace and with a good intention . . .

Jesus himself tells his disciples: ‘I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me (by the state of grace), and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit (for heaven). If a man does not abide in me (by mortal sin) . . . he can do nothing’ – he can bear no fruit for heaven; just as the branch that is cut off from the vine cannot produce any grapes.

By sanctifying grace we are children of God. Only by sanctifying grace do we have a right to heaven as our heritage. By purely natural good acts, such as even the sinner can perform, heaven cannot be merited as a reward; we must be in the state of grace, a child of God. Only after human nature has been united to God by grace and raised up above it’s own nature can good acts, which proceed from this supernaturally elevated nature, be directed towards the possession of God in the hereafter. Only in this way can we merit the vision of God in heaven, since it completely surpasses the powers of our pure human nature.

By sanctifying grace we become living members of the mystical body of Christ, one with Christ our Head. Thus our acts become acts of Christ, who, in an incomprehensible way, is living and working in [p. 264] his members. Through this intimate union with Christ, our Mediator before the Father, we merit the happiness of heaven.

Finally, sanctifying grace makes us temples of the Holy Spirit, who compels us to good works (Rom 8:14). St. Francis de Sales writes that the Holy Spirit performs good works in us with such consummate skill that the works belong more to him than to us. He works with us and we work with him. In this activity we use our free will. By our free will we submit all our human activity to the grace and will of God. By this act of reverence and worship, our good acts redound to the glory of God. Our will could also take a stand against God’s will, and commit sin.
By isolating sentences (the classic and quintessential anti-Catholic methodology) which emphasize man’s cooperation and effort, it appears that McCarthy had hoped to leave a false impression that we believe we can get to heaven on our own power, pulling ourselves up by our own bootstraps, without God’s enabling grace. But this is the heresy of Pelagianism, which both Catholic dogma and Premm (even in immediate context) clearly condemn.

This is, therefore, apparently deliberate misrepresentation on McCarthy’s part, and that is a serious sin — a violation of the Ten Commandments and even basic pagan and secular ethical precepts. Whatever McCarthy or other anti-Catholics think of our theology, their own Christian tradition (as well as Jesus Himself) condemn them for slander and lying, whether we are Christian “brothers” or not, in their thinking. As we indeed are their brothers in Christ, their sin is all the greater. McCarthy’s polemical anti-Catholic video has also been clearly shown by Catholic apologetics magazine This Rock to be slanderous and grossly inaccurate. Let us hope and pray that he will repent, for his sake, and for the sake of the thousands he is leading astray.

James 3:1 (RSV) Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.
Catholic Merit vs. Distorted Caricatures (James McCarthy)

It's easy to find Catholics who can't reduce all the above information into sound bytes that Protestants can accept, because as you can see, the "earn salvation" myth is not so simple. But despite all this evidence, the myth continues. Especially when anti-Catholic teachers, like McCarthy, with Ph.D's, who have repeatedly encountered Catholic apologists and KNOW Catholic teaching, deliberately LIE about it anyway.

The next time you encounter an ignorant Catholic who says we earn our salvation, ask them if they understand the heresy of Pelagianism. If they don't, find one who does.

That’s like saying you do not have to work to get paid, but when you do work, it’s not really work. That your recieving a weekly paycheck by grace not of works.

sorry bro, I listen to the inspired word of God Not the u inspired words of men.

you do what you feel you have to

 

[Illuminator]

That’s like saying you do not have to work to get paid, but when you do work, it’s not really work. That your recieving a weekly paycheck by grace not of works.

sorry bro, I listen to the inspired word of God Not the u inspired words of men.

you do what you feel you have to

A weekly paycheck is earned, grace is a free gift. I said that in several ways and you just ignore it. You listen to false teachers who are unwilling or unable to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. I explained this in detail, and exposed the false charge of "works salvation". That's the heresy of Pelagianism, condemned by the Church 1000 years before the first Protestant was born. It seems impossible for you to understand the relationship of human free will to God’s grace. You are incapable of understanding because of cognitive dissonance.

You have a core belief about "works" that Catholicism doesn't teach, and obviously no amount of evidence to the contrary will do.
"I listen to the inspired word of God Not the u inspired words of men." What a cop out. You listen to false teachers by accepting their false charges of Pelagianism, blindly rejecting the inspired word of God in the process. Catholicism has never taught salvation by works apart from God's grace. Those who claim otherwise are deceived or they are just liars.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A weekly paycheck is earned, grace is a free gift. I said that in several ways and you just ignore it.

.

You claim it is free, yet you claim you have to do the sacraments to receive it

then you claim I ignore what you said

you say exactly what I said you say

your trying to earn a reward by doing the works of the sacraments, even the works of the OT law were considered works, and paul made it clear if Abraham was found by any work he could boast of earning a reward.

if it is grace it is no longer works

you can deny they are works all day long, a work is a work, if it is done in order to recieve something, then you are working to earn a wage, which means my example fits perfectly

your right salvation is a gift, that is why Abraham was found by faith before he did one work,

we are said to be saved by this same faith of Abraham because it is through his covenant we are saved, in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed,

 

[Illuminator]

You claim it is free, yet you claim you have to do the sacraments to receive it

then you claim I ignore what you said

you say exactly what I said you say

your trying to earn a reward by doing the works of the sacraments, even the works of the OT law were considered works, and paul made it clear if Abraham was found by any work he could boast of earning a reward.

if it is grace it is no longer works

you can deny they are works all day long, a work is a work, if it is done in order to recieve something, then you are working to earn a wage, which means my example fits perfectly

your right salvation is a gift, that is why Abraham was found by faith before he did one work,

we are said to be saved by this same faith of Abraham because it is through his covenant we are saved, in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed,

Again, sacraments are not good works. Matrimony is a sacrament. Getting married is not a good work, it is a sacrament. Nobody gets married to earn their salvation. Your definition of "good works" is not biblical. Good works are works of mercy. Here is what I mean by "good works" (it is by no means exhaustive):

A sacrament is an outward sign of an inward grace. For example, In Matrimony, the outward sign is in the exchange of vows completed by consummation. The inward grace reflects the marriage of Christ with His Church. It is not a "good work". There are no sacraments in the above list. Sacraments rest on the Incarnation Principle.

 

[Illuminator]

your trying to earn a reward by doing the works of the sacraments, even the works of the OT law were considered works, and paul made it clear if Abraham was found by any work he could boast of earning a reward...

...your right salvation is a gift, that is why Abraham was found by faith before he did one work,...

...we are said to be saved by this same faith of Abraham because it is through his covenant we are saved, in you shall all the nations of the world be blessed,

John 3:16 – justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

Heb. 5:9 – Paul also confirms this by writing that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. Here are some examples of justification as an on-going process, and not a one-time event:

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham’s justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham’s justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 – Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.

1 Sam. 13:14 – David is justified here, as God describes him as “a man after his own heart.” No one in Scripture is described like this. Acts 13:22 confirms David’s justification before God.

1 Sam. 16:13 – David is also justified here. “The Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward.”

1 Sam. 17:37-54 – David is further justified here, as he responds to God’s grace and God delivers him from the hand of Goliath the Philistine.

2 Sam. 6:9,14 – David is further justified here, as he expresses a fear for the Lord in the presence of His ark, and dances before the ark of the Lord with all his might.

2 Sam. 12:7-15 – however, after David’s on-going justification before God, David falls out of justification by committing adultery with Bathsheba and slaying Uriah the Hittite. David still had faith in God, but he lost his justification because of his evil works.

Psalm 32:1-2; Rom. 4:7-8; cf. 51:2,7-10,17 – David repents of his sin and writes these beautiful psalms about God’s mercy and forgiveness. Of himself, he writes, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered up.” David is re-justified before God. This proves that we can be justified before God, then lose our justification, and then be re-justified through repentance and reconciliation with God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Again, sacraments are not good works. Matrimony is a sacrament. Getting married is not a good work, it is a sacrament. Nobody gets married to earn their salvation. Your definition of "good works" is not biblical. Good works are works of mercy. Here is what I mean by "good works" (it is by no means exhaustive):

A sacrament is an outward sign of an inward grace. For example, In Matrimony, the outward sign is in the exchange of vows completed by consummation. The inward grace reflects the marriage of Christ with His Church. It is not a "good work". There are no sacraments in the above list. Sacraments rest on the Incarnation Principle.

A work is a work is a work

If you are doing it in order to be saved.

Your working to earn a reward or a wage. not a gift.

You can try to excuse it all you want. It does not make it right.

Works are done BECAUSE we have been born again and made new creatures. Not in order to RECEIVE or maintain salvation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

John 3:16 – justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

Heb. 5:9 – Paul also confirms this by writing that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. Here are some examples of justification as an on-going process, and not a one-time event:

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham’s justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham’s justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 – Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.

1 Sam. 13:14 – David is justified here, as God describes him as “a man after his own heart.” No one in Scripture is described like this. Acts 13:22 confirms David’s justification before God.

1 Sam. 16:13 – David is also justified here. “The Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward.”

1 Sam. 17:37-54 – David is further justified here, as he responds to God’s grace and God delivers him from the hand of Goliath the Philistine.

2 Sam. 6:9,14 – David is further justified here, as he expresses a fear for the Lord in the presence of His ark, and dances before the ark of the Lord with all his might.

2 Sam. 12:7-15 – however, after David’s on-going justification before God, David falls out of justification by committing adultery with Bathsheba and slaying Uriah the Hittite. David still had faith in God, but he lost his justification because of his evil works.

Psalm 32:1-2; Rom. 4:7-8; cf. 51:2,7-10,17 – David repents of his sin and writes these beautiful psalms about God’s mercy and forgiveness. Of himself, he writes, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered up.” David is re-justified before God. This proves that we can be justified before God, then lose our justification, and then be re-justified through repentance and reconciliation with God.

May have eternal life (John 3: 16) Where did you read that?

The word is present tense

Whoever believed has eternal life.

You want it to be conditional life. So you add the word may (or maybe it was your church?)

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

This thread is the epitome of what is wrong with professing Christianity, specifically Protestants. Any time somebody emphasizes obedience to what the Bible plainly teaches, Protestants immediately project their own distaste for God's authority on those people as belonging to a "cult" that is "obsessed" with biblical doctrine...as if being faithful to biblical doctrines is an evil thing. Protestantism perfectly personifies Paul's warning about despisers of good and Isaiah speaking of people who call light darkness.

Of course the water itself cannot inherently make somebody a Christian, but the Bible clearly demands that prospective followers get baptized via full immersion as a symbol that they want to repent and live a life of obeying God from that point on. That cannot be argued away by Protestants with their favorite sleight of hand theology about how a mental acceptance of Christ's existence is the only thing that is necessary. A Christian does what Christ commands and follows the example He set. Anyone who is truly faithful to the Bible knows that is not negotiable. Protestants love to talk about how Christ is their Lord, Master and King, but they contradict, disobey, and disbelieve what He said if it inconveniences them.