Discovering : Counterfeit Faith

[Behold]

Reader,

How do you find out who has Real faith in Christ, and who has broken faith and is a Legalist.... heretic?


1.) Find out if they believe they can "lose their salvation".

2.) Find out if they believe that "water washes away your sin".


Also, its literally possible to be a born again, heaven bound, Christian, and be a "counterfeit believer".
Paul dealt with some Galatian Christians who were exactly this situation, and i can promise you that Pulpits and Forums are filled with these people.
Its a fact.
In other words, they are born again, but their faith is so broken, so backwards, so carnal, so SELF RIGHTEOUS< that you can't have any type of conversation with them, where they will agree that Jesus KEEPS YOU SAVED.

And Reader, if you don't believe that Jesus Keeps you saved, always.....then ask yourself........ "who does"'.??

Listen, if you dont believe that the Same Jesus who saved you from your sin, is still doing it forever, then you have lost faith in Christ, and dont realize it.
Until now....
That's a fact., and you are now trying to save yourself, and you'll show us your LIST. Your "self saving" list., and you'll want to talk about "commandments" and "water baptism" and "self effort" "works", "trying to be like Christ"... "confessing sin".... "living in a state of repentance".....and on and on you'll go with all YOUR DEEDS that prove that your faith in Christ is Broken., but you faith in your self righteousness is MAXXED OUT.

Understand?

Paul said you have to take inventory of your own faith, to find out if it has slipped into "self saving", ("Fallen from Grace") or if you still give Jesus full credit for saving you, and keeping you saved..

And again, if you dont believe that Jesus Keeps you saved, just like He saved you....when you came to Him with a lifetime of SIN.. and God dealt with it all, through the Cross of Christ......then you now believe that you are in charge of keeping yourself saved, and to the degree that you are deceived this way, will mark you as a Legalist, and if you are really deeply deceived about what "keeps me saved" then you are a heretic and you'll post and prove that your understanding of the Cross of Christ is MISSING, GONE... = ZERO.

Listen, ,,,
= BROKEN faith believers, always refuse to agree that Jesus keeps you saved, and that is because they are trying to do it for themselves. = by commandment keeping, law, self effort, confessing sin, water baptism, trying to be like Christ, or sometimes... "holding unto faith" ..is their idea of "self saving".

Let me explain, "holding unto my faith", so that the person who is this type of Legalist, can be easily revealed.

Its like this...
We come to God one time, believing, and He takes that faith, that moment, = and gives us His "GIFT Salvation""", that was completed by Jesus on the Cross, 2000 yrs ago.

So, the person who is confused about this, and is upset by my Thread....... does not understand that this faith we had, that God accepted, is DONE.
He accepted it...already...... and gave us "the Gift of Salvation"... ALREADY......... and this... 2 Corinthians 5:19

So, the broken faith BELIEVER, who is born again, is trying to hold unto their faith, as if faith is their savior.

They are not trusting in Christ, they are trusting in : "as long as i hold unto my faith, i keep myself saved".

See that? That is the same type of self deception as "confessing sin keeps me saved" or "confessing sin and im saved once again".
And these devout Legalists, these carnal believers.... can make quite a case , and argue, but the reality is... GOD is the Savior, Jesus is the Way, and Faith is accepted ONCE by God, on the day we were saved by God, through Christ.
God understands this perfectly, but they do not understand it, at all.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Reader,

How do you find out who has Real faith in Christ, and who has broken faith and is a Legalist.... heretic?


1.) Find out if they believe they can "lose their salvation".

2.) Find out if they believe that "water washes away your sin".


Also, its literally possible to be a born again, heaven bound, Christian, and be a "counterfeit believer".

I can certainly sympathize with what you're trying to say here, but there seems to be a language issue for me. If you're declaring "once saved always saved," fine. But then you're saying that "born again believers" can be "counterfeit believers?" Isn't this like "losing their faith?"

Maybe you're saying that born again believers weren't ever really saved? Help me out?

 

[GISMYS_7]

ALL believers must be on guard for satan's deceptions and traps so as to not fall into error!!

 

[Behold]

I can certainly sympathize with what you're trying to say here, but there seems to be a language issue for me. If you're declaring "once saved always saved," fine.

No, im "declaring" that Jesus is Salvation, and all the born again Have Jesus in them, which proves they are "one with God".
This is an eternal LIFE.

 

[Behold]

And all this time I thought that only God was eternal.

Eternal life is eternal.
This is why its called "Eternal".

Jesus said..."all that believe in me, i give unto them, ETERNAL Life, and they shall never go to Hell (perish)".

But, let me show you this..

Everyone's body dies, but, the spirit does not.... So, when Jesus says, "i give unto you eternal life, if you BELIEVE">.. He is not speaking about, or teaching that, you will never end.... as you'll never end, anyway...,., as only your body will end.
That is , your spirit is already eternal.... and heading into eternity.

So, the Eternal Life that Jesus IS. John 14 6... and that He gives to the BELIEVER< is a change of destination, after you die.

See, everyone who is not a believer, is destined for this Eternal LIfe.

John 3:36

And Everyone Who has the Eternal Life that is "Christ in you, the hope of Glory", has been rescued from : John 3:36, and are now "seated in heavenly places"... "in Christ".

The simple way to understand this is .... if you are never born again, then you end up in Hell, then Lake of fire, after you die.

If you are born again, you have now entered into the Kingdom of God, and THAT, is the eternal life, of all the "born again"... already.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No, im "declaring" that Jesus is Salvation, and all the born again Have Jesus in them, which proves they are "one with God".
This is an eternal LIFE.

I'm not sure that addresses the issue in terms of the language presenting both sides? Can you be more clear? You said that a Born Again Christian can be a "counterfeit." And you say that a Born Again Christian has Eternal Life in them. Square these 2 ideas, if you will?

 

[Behold]

You said that a Born Again Christian can be a "counterfeit."

Its their faith that is the counterfeit. It has become so. = Its broken.

For example.......a person who knows nothing about Christianity goes to church one Sunday.
They dont know any theology....

So, they are sitting there, and the Gospel is preached and the Holy Spirit convicts their heart, and they receive Christ as their Savior.

See that?
They have not "lived for the Lord" They have not "kept Christ's Commandments".

They were living in sin, went to church, and left it that morning as a "new Creation in Christ', "made righteous" and heaven bound.

THEN.... they go to some church or they turn on the TV or they listen to a relative or they come to a FORUM......and all of these teach them THEIR theology.

And in a month,.. a year.... this same person, is now talking about "enduring to the end"< or "how Mary is a perpetual virgin", or How John Calvin is the Truth.

See that?

That is what happens to nearly every believer....... They start out in simple faith, and in a year or less, they are a theologically confused tropthy of the Devil.

They are still saved.....but, that is all.

You'll find them on forums talking about "losing salvation" and "confessing sin to try to stay saved"...

But that is not what they were doing that first Sunday morning when they Met JESUS at the Cross and in an Instant God made them His Born again, forever.

They understood it then, and then the Devil comes with "THEOLOGY", and soon they are in the DARK.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Reader,

How do you find out who has Real faith in Christ, and who has broken faith and is a Legalist.... heretic?


1.) Find out if they believe they can "lose their salvation".

2.) Find out if they believe that "water washes away your sin".


Also, its literally possible to be a born again, heaven bound, Christian, and be a "counterfeit believer".
Paul dealt with some Galatian Christians who were exactly this situation, and i can promise you that Pulpits and Forums are filled with these people.
Its a fact.
In other words, they are born again, but their faith is so broken, so backwards, so carnal, so SELF RIGHTEOUS< that you can't have any type of conversation with them, where they will agree that Jesus KEEPS YOU SAVED.

And Reader, if you don't believe that Jesus Keeps you saved, always.....then ask yourself........ "who does"'.??

Listen, if you dont believe that the Same Jesus who saved you from your sin, is still doing it forever, then you have lost faith in Christ, and dont realize it.
Until now....
That's a fact., and you are now trying to save yourself, and you'll show us your LIST. Your "self saving" list., and you'll want to talk about "commandments" and "water baptism" and "self effort" "works", "trying to be like Christ"... "confessing sin".... "living in a state of repentance".....and on and on you'll go with all YOUR DEEDS that prove that your faith in Christ is Broken., but you faith in your self righteousness is MAXXED OUT.

Understand?

Paul said you have to take inventory of your own faith, to find out if it has slipped into "self saving", ("Fallen from Grace") or if you still give Jesus full credit for saving you, and keeping you saved..

And again, if you dont believe that Jesus Keeps you saved, just like He saved you....when you came to Him with a lifetime of SIN.. and God dealt with it all, through the Cross of Christ......then you now believe that you are in charge of keeping yourself saved, and to the degree that you are deceived this way, will mark you as a Legalist, and if you are really deeply deceived about what "keeps me saved" then you are a heretic and you'll post and prove that your understanding of the Cross of Christ is MISSING, GONE... = ZERO.

Listen, ,,,
= BROKEN faith believers, always refuse to agree that Jesus keeps you saved, and that is because they are trying to do it for themselves. = by commandment keeping, law, self effort, confessing sin, water baptism, trying to be like Christ, or sometimes... "holding unto faith" ..is their idea of "self saving".

Let me explain, "holding unto my faith", so that the person who is this type of Legalist, can be easily revealed.

Its like this...
We come to God one time, believing, and He takes that faith, that moment, = and gives us His "GIFT Salvation""", that was completed by Jesus on the Cross, 2000 yrs ago.

So, the person who is confused about this, and is upset by my Thread....... does not understand that this faith we had, that God accepted, is DONE.
He accepted it...already...... and gave us "the Gift of Salvation"... ALREADY......... and this... 2 Corinthians 5:19

So, the broken faith BELIEVER, who is born again, is trying to hold unto their faith, as if faith is their savior.

They are not trusting in Christ, they are trusting in : "as long as i hold unto my faith, i keep myself saved".

See that? That is the same type of self deception as "confessing sin keeps me saved" or "confessing sin and im saved once again".
And these devout Legalists, these carnal believers.... can make quite a case , and argue, but the reality is... GOD is the Savior, Jesus is the Way, and Faith is accepted ONCE by God, on the day we were saved by God, through Christ.
God understands this perfectly, but they do not understand it, at all.

We agree on something!!!! This could become a trend!!!!!

 

[Behold]

We agree on something!!!! This could become a trend!!!!!

Hebrews 13:1

 

[Randy Kluth]

Its their faith that is the counterfeit. It has become so. = Its broken.

For example.......a person who knows nothing about Christianity goes to church one Sunday.
They dont know any theology....

So, they are sitting there, and the Gospel is preached and the Holy Spirit convicts their heart, and they receive Christ as their Savior.

See that?
They have not "lived for the Lord" They have not "kept Christ's Commandments".

They were living in sin, went to church, and left it that morning as a "new Creation in Christ', "made righteous" and heaven bound.

THEN.... they go to some church or they turn on the TV or they listen to a relative or they come to a FORUM......and all of these teach them THEIR theology.

And in a month,.. a year.... this same person, is now talking about "enduring to the end"< or "how Mary is a perpetual virgin", or How John Calvin is the Truth.

See that?

That is what happens to nearly every believer....... They start out in simple faith, and in a year or less, they are a theologically confused tropthy of the Devil.

They are still saved.....but, that is all.

You'll find them on forums talking about "losing salvation" and "confessing sin to try to stay saved"...

But that is not what they were doing that first Sunday morning when they Met JESUS at the Cross and in an Instant God made them His Born again, forever.

They understood it then, and then the Devil comes with "THEOLOGY", and soon they are in the DARK.

Okay, I understand what you're saying. I in part agree with you. Our difference exists only in the language, which I don't think is very significant with respect to this discussion.

I believe "born again" means someone has received Christ, experienced Christ, and truly repented of their sins, putting on Christ as their righteousness. I don't personally believe there is any other kind of "born again."

However, if you're right that simply accepting Christ as an experience, but not as a conversion, is what being "born again" is, I totally agree with you. However, there are people I know who've been born again by experience and truly repentant, and yet later down the road got caught up in bitterness or addictions and appear to completely backtrack on their Christianity.

But among those I personally know who have done this, at least one of them came to me privately and admitted he still believes in Jesus. That is, he knows he took a bad turn. To make matters worse, he married a pagan woman who threatened him if he went "religious" in any way. There is tremendous pressure to coerce Christians to put their light under a bush.

Thanks for the explanation. I agree with your basic premise, that Christian experience is not good enough. And I do think that those who have crossed over through true repentance can always be forgiven. The staying power of God is incredible for those who have truly accepted him, coupled with true repentance.

 

[Behold]

However, if you're right that simply accepting Christ as an experience

Ive never used this sentence in my entire life.

= "simply accept Christ as an experience'.

So, why do you make stuff up?
Dont do that.
Just quote me, and use those.

Listen, Jesus is not an Experience...

If you want an experience, then join a Charismatic Church and they'll have you trying to experience "the infilling" and "tongues" for the rest of your life.

So, im not that one.
No worries.

Here is the thing.... "conversion" begins with repenting from unbelief, but that just starts the process of Redemption.

"Faith is counted as righteousness" is the START of what is about to occur.

God has to take the blood atonement and deal with ALL your sin. And after He has , THEN He can join you to Himself, spiritually.

So, that is 2 parts to becoming "one with God". "in Christ".

1.) The application of the Blood Atonement

2.) The regeneration of the spirit

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ive never used this sentence in my entire life.

= "simply accept Christ as an experience'.

So, why do you make stuff up?
Dont do that.

I get to say what I want to say--not you! If I phrase things strangely, it's because I'm dealing with somebody else's way of phrasing things. Just quoting others doesn't cut it. There are differences that are not discernible by stating cliches or common terms.

The cults got away with that for a long time. They use our Bible, our terms, but mean something different. So I have to use different words to try to figure out the differences in how the same words are being used differently. I'm not saying you're a member of a cult, but you do seem to become irritated very easily.

So we're both using the words "born again" differently, and it does me no good to just quote "born again." You are using it in the sense people are counterfeit. I'm using it in the sense that it is *not* counterfeit. So what is the difference? It can't be shown by just quoting the words "born again!"

So I'm using "born again" as a genuine experience, replete with repentance. I'm defining "born again" for myself as an experience that *includes* genuine repentance. And it seem you're using "born again" as sometimes a spiritual experience with repentance and sometimes a spiritual experience without repentance.

Just quote me, and use those.

Listen, Jesus is not an Experience...

I don't know what part of the Christian world you come from, but you're wrong--Jesus is very much an Experience! If you don't have an "experience" with Jesus, you've never been born again. You don't repent by your own works. You repent by accessing the virtues of Christ. That, my friend, is an "experience!"

If you want an experience, then join a Charismatic Church and they'll have you trying to experience "the infilling" and "tongues" for the rest of your life.

I don't speak in tongues, but I've been a Charismatic for over 50 years. The spiritual experience I began with came from reading the Scriptures where it said, "I give my Spirit to those who obey Me." I was instantly filled with the Spirit. Paul calls for us to "be filled with the Spirit." What are you "filled" with?

So, im not that one.
No worries.

Here is the thing.... "conversion" begins with repenting from unbelief, but that just starts the process of Redemption.

"Faith is counted as righteousness" is the START of what is about to occur.

God has to take the blood atonement and deal with ALL your sin. And after He has , THEN He can join you to Himself, spiritually.

So, that is 2 parts to becoming "one with God". "in Christ".

1.) The application of the Blood Atonement

2.) The regeneration of the spirit

Doctrine without experience is intellectual salvation, which isn't Salvation at all. I don't know who's poisoned you against Pentecostals and Charismatics, but you should take the good and throw out the bad. I don't agree 100% with all they teach either, but saying Christianity is *not* an experience isn't something I've heard from any of the evangelical churches!

 

[Behold]

I get to say what I want to say--not you!

You are free to say what you want.

Just quote the source, and dont rewrite their words to suit your argument.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are free to say what you want, but when you twist my words or LIE, then i'll point it out.

So, dont do that, Randy.

Simple.
Just be honest, and quote the source, and dont rewrite their words to suit your false statements.

Behold, I was not intentionally twisting anything you said. It does me little good to give exact quotes all the time when we're trying to understand what each other is saying. You said people who are "born again" can be counterfeit--that is what I heard you say. So if I rephrase it, to suggest that's what you're saying, you have the opportunity to correct it--not whine.

 

[Behold]

So we're both using the words "born again" differently, and it does me no good to just quote "born again." You are using it in the sense people are counterfeit

My Thread is actually the Title.
That's the subject.

Its false, or counterfeit faith... that a born again person is manifesting.

So, there are those who counterfeit being born again.
That's true.
These people will tell you that water baptism saves you.
But it doesn't, and it didnt save them... yet, there are those who are truly born again, who believed that water saved them.
There are some of these, but not that many.

So, Paul talks about "falling from Grace"....and that is to lose faith that Christ Keeps you saved, and you end up, trying to do it for yourself.

In that case, your Faith is "counterfeit", its false. Its false because it does not believe that Jesus who saved you, keeps you saved.

Most "believers" are in that situation.

I would guess that 90% or more of the people who use this forum, believe that they can lose their salvation.
And the only way you can believe that, is if you believe you are keeping yourself saved.
As if you believe that JESUS KEEPS YOU SAVED, then you would not believe that salvation can be lost.

See that broken faith?

That is "fallen from Grace".

 

[Behold]

Behold, I was not intentionally twisting anything you said. It does me little good to give exact quotes all the time when we're trying to understand what each other is saying. You said people who are "born again" can be counterfeit--that is what I heard you say. So if I rephrase it, to suggest that's what you're saying, you have the opportunity to correct it--not whine.

Just be honest and quote me, and we are good to go.
Dont rewrite my points to suit your ideas/doctrine/opinion.

Just quote me, and then you have it right every time.
Simple.

 

[Randy Kluth]

My Thread is actually the Title.
That's the subject.

Its false, or counterfeit faith... that a born again person is manifesting.

So, there are those who counterfeit being born again.
That's true.

Well I would dispute that. By definition, one who has been "born again" is genuine, and not counterfeit. I don't personally think there's such a thing as being falsely born again! You're either born or you're not.

That's what I thought you were saying, and I did want clarification. You've given me that. We have a difference of opinion. Those aren't fighting words--it's just fact. We see things and define things differently.

These people will tell you that water baptism saves you.
But it doesn't, and it didnt save them... yet, there are those who are truly born again, who believed that water saved them.
There are some of these, but not that many.

I don't disagree. I call these people "nominal Christians"--not born again Christians. So we have a difference in our vocabulary? We do agree on the theology, that depending on external rituals does not save on on the inside. Being changed on the inside is what is important--cleansing the inside of the cup--not just the outside.

Incidentally, being cleansed on the inside is in fact an "experience." Why would you want to say it is not? You must think any experience is a counterfeit? You must rely strictly on the intellect, and not on a spiritual awakening? I don't want to speak for you, but you can correct me if I'm wrong?

So, Paul talks about "falling from Grace"....and that is to lose faith that Christ Keeps you saved, and you end up, trying to do it for yourself.

In that case, your Faith is "counterfeit", its false. Its false because it does not believe that Jesus who saved you, keeps you saved.

Most "believers" are in that situation.

I would guess that 90% or more of the people who use this forum, believe that they can lose their salvation.

I don't think that's true. I, for one, do not believe one who is a truly born again Christian will ever lose their Salvation. It isn't as if they don't have freedom to walk away--they just don't want to. Why would you walk away from something you chose in the 1st place?

Yes, there are people who choose a partner in marriage, and then walk away. But we're talking about *God* here! When you truly choose Him over the things of this world, you've made an eternal decision. You may capitulate to carnal weaknesses, but you've made an eternal choice, and Christ's grace will bring you home, forgiven.

And the only way you can believe that, is if you believe you are keeping yourself saved.
As if you believe that JESUS KEEPS YOU SAVED, then you would not believe that salvation can be lost.

See that broken faith?

That is "fallen from Grace".

Yes, we don't keep ourselves Saved. Christ keeps us Saved. We choose to obey, but Christ is the virtue, and he keeps us Saved.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Just be honest and quote me, and we are good to go.
Dont rewrite my points to suit your ideas/doctrine/opinion.

Just quote me, and then you have it right every time.
Simple.

No, I've explained why I do what I do. Sorry, that's how it works for me. When somebody says something, and I'm not clear what's actually being said, it helps to put things in different words to see how that flies. If it doesn't, just correct it--don't whine.

 

[Behold]

Well I would dispute that. By definition, one who has been "born again" is genuine, and not counterfeit. I don't personally think there's such a thing as being falsely born again! You're either born or you're not.

"Satan comes as an angel of Light, and His Ministers as ministers of Righteousness"

That's a verse that Paul wrote to us, so that we keep our eye and ears open.

He is explaining that FAKE CHRISTIANS sound just like REAL ONEs, Randy.

They talk about Righteousness, works, commandments, LOVE LOVE LOVE, ... they use all the Chrisianese... all the slogans, all the touch base words.

And they do it as MODS on Calvinistic and Water Cult Forums, (and others) Ministers in Pulpits, and of course, writers of commentaries.
Ive written a few Threads here on the Forum, regarding these DARK LIGHTS. = Luke 11:35
I guess i should bump them.

I don't disagree. I call these people "nominal Christians"--not born again Christians.

For a person to be a Christian.. they have to have Christ living in them. "if you have not the Spirit of God/Christ in you, then you are none of God's".
So, that a must have, or you're not born again.
Therefore, i dont think you can be "nominal" and be that one., unless by "nominal" you mean... lukewarm, backslid, dead faith.....

Demas was such a believer., for example.

I recall that Brother Marks said that after he was born again, he went back into the world for a while.
So, this is certainly not uncommon.

It pretty obvious that "christians" who are watching a lot of NETFLIX are not doing a lot of Bible reading, or spend a lot of time in Prayer.

Incidentally, being cleansed on the inside is in fact an "experience." Why would you want to say it is not?

Why ??

= To avoid being associated with the Charismatic-Pentecostal movement idea that being born again is an experience.. and "the infilling" is the same, and "a second work of Grace" is another one, and on and on they just keep going.
You could ask 1stCenturyLady, (formally CharismaticLady).... about all those/her experiences.

In other words to remove the idea that is Salvation a FEELING... like goose bumps or some.... """" lets gather around the campfire concept of salvation.:""

Like this.. Let Andy tell you..

1.) "Well, it was dark, and we were all huddled together as one, and the crackling campfire was the only light, and someone began singing Amazing Grace, and suddenly, there by the campfire light, i felt this feeling, this feeling, this experience,..goose bumps... and they told me later that night that i was saved, because of what i felt".... So, i woke up the next day, and downloaded some porn like i usually do every morning, while smoking a joint,..... and had that experience, and it felt different", "Andy said to the Sunday School Class".

See that?

That's what im trying to avoid, as any kind of idea of "experience" regarding Salvation.

I don't think that's true. I, for one, do not believe one who is a truly born again Christian will ever lose their Salvation. It isn't as if they don't have freedom to walk away--they just don't want to. Why would you walk away from something you chose in the 1st place?

Well, there are about 5 verses in the NT that are written to unsaved Jews, that mislead/deceived Believers have adopted for themselves as "lose your salvation proof texts"., And if these verses take over your mind, you'll likely never again believe you can't lose your salvation.
These verses will break your faith and literally chain you into a mental stronghold, and forums are filled with people who want to use those few verses to ruin your faith, and your Christianity... And once those verses own you, then you are done., and God is finished using you.
The Devil tho, will take it from there and have you doing some preaching about those verses..
Ive seen literally thousands of these people, for years,.. .preaching those verses to try to harm REAL Believers.
They do it on this Forum, also.

Yes, there are people who choose a partner in marriage, and then walk away. But we're talking about *God* here! When you truly choose Him over the things of this world, you've made an eternal decision.

God does not require you to sign a commitment to be solder of the Cross before He saves you.
He just requires you to BELIEVE.
In fact, Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and its a sinner who loves to sin that God saves, instantly.
They have not ever been anything else, and they didnt agree to be anything else.
What they did was... they heard the Gospel, and they "gave God their Faith".... and went to Christ to be saved.
And they were.
And they still are...today, and forever.

All the working, and commitment, comes later......... As discipleship follows salvation, just like water baptism.... and it can take a while to get that up and running, correctly....if at all.
Yet being born again, is in an instant.... and is based on The Cross.... and not on the person's agreement to be "Good". later on.

You may capitulate to carnal weaknesses, but you've made an eternal choice, and Christ's grace will bring you home, forgiven.

I think that all of use have our carnal moments, have our issues.. but that is what God's Grace is all about.
He always has multiplied ample Grace for all our weaknesses.
In fact, its = "When i am weak , then i am strong" as Its all about the Power of God as our strength, and never our own.

Yes, we don't keep ourselves Saved. Christ keeps us Saved. We choose to obey, but Christ is the virtue, and he keeps us Saved.

The Same Jesus who saved us, keeps us saved the same way He saved us.

We dont even have to be "super spiritual" to understand that one, as Logic works just fine.

 

[Randy Kluth]

"Satan comes as an angel of Light, and His Ministers as ministers of Righteousness"

That's a verse that Paul wrote to us, so that we keep our eye and ears open.

He is explaining that FAKE CHRISTIANS sound just like REAL ONEs, Randy.

They talk about Righteousness, works, commandments, LOVE LOVE LOVE, ... they use all the Chrisianese... all the slogans, all the touch base words.

And they do it as MODS on Calvinistic and Water Cult Forums, (and others) Ministers in Pulpits, and of course, writers of commentaries.
Ive written a few Threads here on the Forum, regarding these DARK LIGHTS. = Luke 11:35
I guess i should bump them.

I understand this, brother--I just don't call them truly "born again Christians." In other words, it's a vocabulary thing. We agree on the main point--just not on the vocabulary.

For a person to be a Christian.. they have to have Christ living in them. "if you have not the Spirit of God/Christ in you, then you are none of God's".
So, that a must have, or you're not born again.
Therefore, i dont think you can be "nominal" and be that one., unless by "nominal" you mean... lukewarm, backslid, dead faith.....

Some of this is also a "vocabulary" issue. For me, a "Nominal Christian" is one who has had a Christian experience, and yet has not truly repented. It is a matter of adopting some basic Christian rules, and experiencing some of God's blessings in the process.

But to me, this is not Salvation. Salvation, as you said, requires genuine repentance. It requires experience + repentance.

Demas was such a believer., for example.

I recall that Brother Marks said that after he was born again, he went back into the world for a while.
So, this is certainly not uncommon.

It pretty obvious that "christians" who are watching a lot of NETFLIX are not doing a lot of Bible reading, or spend a lot of time in Prayer.

Yes, we had that discussion. Backsliding is something that happens to many Christians. I always recommend keeping your "sins" of the "minor" kind. Of course, no sin is good.

Why ??

= To avoid being associated with the Charismatic-Pentecostal movement idea that being born again is an experience.. and "the infilling" is the same, and "a second work of Grace" is another one, and on and on they just keep going.
You could ask 1stCenturyLady, (formally CharismaticLady).... about all those/her experiences.

In other words to remove the idea that is Salvation a FEELING... like goose bumps or some.... """" lets gather around the campfire concept of salvation.:""

Yes, I thought that's where you were going with this. Even so, I wouldn't deny, flat out, that Christianity is not an experience! If you don't experience Salvation, then you've never had it.

But yes, spiritual feelings can be deceptive. Even genuine spiritual feelings are insufficient. As you said, repentance is necessary.

Well, there are about 5 verses in the NT that are written to unsaved Jews, that mislead/deceived Believers have adopted for themselves as "lose your salvation proof texts"., And if these verses take over your mind, you'll likely never again believe you can't lose your salvation.

I've been Once Saved Always Saved since the 70s. Before that I was ardently pro-choice. Apologist Walter Martin's argument for Predestination convinced me to change my mind, along with looking back on my Christian experiences with various people.

God does not require you to sign a commitment to be solder of the Cross before He saves you.
He just requires you to BELIEVE.

Yes, you're talking, I think, about genuine Faith, of the kind that comprehends what Jesus died to give us, which consists of his life and righteousness. When we believe in who he really was and is, then we choose, by default, to abandon the sinful world to live his way.

Our biggest difference seems to be over the vocabulary. We seem to agree on the basics. Thanks.