Divine Hiddenness

[Vince]

Thank God so now y'all are over the "beliefs" thing entirely...only there is obv still a hole to fill, which is not even what I was gonna say, but maybe the beliefs provided something or something maybe. So anyway imo you hardly lack beliefs, they have just changed, right? Now you just "believe" something different, and let's admit their are maybe lots of feelings involved too.

I never said I lacked beliefs, I said I lacked a belief in a god. Of course I believe many things. One think I don't believe is that a god exists. I don't have a belief that god does not exist, he could, but I don't have evidence that he does.

you have a perfectly fine relationship with God right now imo, I can tell bc you don't like it! Guess that makes no sense lol...but that's just how doers who are not on tares talk. You just got swallowed by a whale that's all

It's not that I don't like it, its because he has not presented evidence he exists. Why do many here equate a non belief in god with a dislike for god. They are different things.

 

[Vince]

This is true. The problem is that we want God to respond on OUR terms. But God uses silence in order to quieten our spirits. God whispers to us. We want Him to be forceful....but that is not God's way.

There are no whispers.

So then to actually contact God requires humility and quietness. I guess we prefer a voice that says loudly to us...NO, not that way... every time we do it wrong. But that would be our way. God's way works and is eternal in nature. We have to adapt our ways to His.

You have assumed much about me. I have tried in the past for long periods of time to know god exists. I have prayed humbly, waited not demanded anything but your god if he exists decided not to show that he exists to me. Hence the reason for this post.

 

[Vince]

I suppose we could ask you what was/is the God like that you want to exist? Because if you have a concept of God already established and that is the God you are searching for, then you can be assured you won't find him. All our concepts of God are wrong in some detail, for some more so than others...and for those who have not found Him, then I would suggest for you your ideas about God could be staggeringly wrong to the point of being unrecognisable.

Then he is not a very good communicator. I did not care what he was like when I prayed for knowledge of him. There is no reason that god should not have shown me he exists in some way when for a good part of my christian life I honestly tried to seek him and follow him. You see I did believe for many years but I came to realized that the basis for my belief was insufficient. When I looked for sufficient evidence it was not there. God did not show it to me. This is your problem with divine hiddenness, you have to tell me and many like me that I am a liar or accept the fact that god won't reveal himself to all people.

Now your failure to be right about who and what God is doesn't mean you will never know Him, but like bbryd said, I think the key is starting from a point of admitting complete ignorance and disabusing yourself of any preconceived ideas about the kind of God you hope exists, and just accept Him as you find Him allowing Him to reveal Himself to you little by little, as much as you can bear.

I did this as best I could for many years. Now what?

 

[Vince]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit God only gives to a select few.

I bet you are one of the select few, right? Your god in 1 Tim 2 says he wants all to come to the knowledge of truth, so if you are right then why is god being a jerk and telling everyone that he wants them to be saved?

 

[bbyrd009]

I never said I lacked beliefs, I said I lacked a belief in a god. Of course I believe many things. One think I don't believe is that a god exists. I don't have a belief that god does not exist, he could, but I don't have evidence that he does.

so then bada-bing, vince's current beliefs about God have been summed up. Again. Of course if the best def of God turns out to be "the spirit that I follow that causes me to post like a human instead of a bot/oracle who knows everything" your belief in God might change, or who knows it might not, Vince, I dunno.
Don't be deceived, little children; those who do right, are right is maybe a good point to make here

It's not that I don't like it, its because he has not presented evidence he exists. Why do many here equate a non belief in god with a dislike for god. They are different things.

well I guess they can be, sure, but they can also be connected in ways that can be hard to see maybe. Fwiw a good reflection for me was to list all the things I am mad at God for; might come in handy someday.

Anyway, working backwards, I'm pretty sure no evidence will be forthcoming bc that God does not exist imo, Vince; the God that you cannot find any evidence for. You would have to define this God more thoroughly for me to be a little more intheloop there, but since this isn't about me I'll say that you are free to define the Creative Force however you like, I guess?

But um, we often crave attention as humans, from other humans, and I dunno but I am detecting some attention-seeking here fwiw too. Not saying that that is necessarily "bad" or whatever, but I mean I'm pretty sure you already know that no proof such as you seek will be forthcoming, right.

I guess this won't serve you right now, but there is an exercise to detect the presence of God for an open-minded person--ha well works for the closed-minded too I guess, only they can't see it, and it only becomes apparent then when they tell the story, complainingly, to their friends--but anyway it's called a fleece, not a religious thing at all really. Have you tried that?
Arg but I don't like going down this road bc I already know the answer I guess, so I would have to disengage on this point from here, but you might even describe your fleece experience to someone you trust who is not a friend--a perceived enemy would be best--and see what feedback you get there maybe

 

[bbyrd009]

I bet you are one of the select few, right? Your god in 1 Tim 2 says he wants all to come to the knowledge of truth, so if you are right then why is god being a jerk and telling everyone that he wants them to be saved?

Ha, you're not mad at God at all though right.
"saved" is a pretty slippery term too I guess Vince, what do you even mean by "saved?" ty

and ps no offense but if you keep cherry-picking my posts like believers do I'm outta here ok. Avoiding points bc they make you uncomfortable is disingenuous at best, given your stated purposes here imo

that might be doing you a favor anyway, I guess
lol

 

[bbyrd009]

I bet you are one of the select few, right?

narf

 

[Vince]

Ha, you're not mad at God at all though right.

No, but if he did exist wouldn't that be a jerky thing to do?

"saved" is a pretty slippery term too I guess Vince, what do you even mean by "saved?" ty

Not my definition. That word is used in the passage I quoted. The word all was the main word I was referring to.

and ps no offense but if you keep cherry-picking my posts like believers do I'm outta here ok. Avoiding points bc they make you uncomfortable is disingenuous at best, given your stated purposes here imo

Where have I not quoted your entire text? I don't know where i ever stated my purpose here.

 

[brakelite]

As in any court case, lots of evidence can be produced by both sides of any argument to support their case, and there may still be a hung jury.
So while there may be plenty of evidence that could be produced that Christians can accept, regardless of how much may be produced, whether it be "proof" or not is entirely in your court @Vince . Even when Jesus stood in front of them after raising Lazarus from the dead, the Jews who didn't want to accept their Messiah then went about devising ways to kill both Jesus and Lazarus. So even should Jesus appear before you tonight, proclaim His deity verbally and turn your old Ford Zodiac into a Mustang, it will still be your choice whether to believe in Him or not. It isn't the quality or the quantity of evidence that will convince you...it is your acceptance of it.

 

[Vince]

As in any court case, lots of evidence can be produced by both sides of any argument to support their case, and there may still be a hung jury.
So while there may be plenty of evidence that could be produced that Christians can accept, regardless of how much may be produced, whether it be "proof" or not is entirely in your court @Vince . Even when Jesus stood in front of them after raising Lazarus from the dead, the Jews who didn't want to accept their Messiah then went about devising ways to kill both Jesus and Lazarus. So even should Jesus appear before you tonight, proclaim His deity verbally and turn your old Ford Zodiac into a Mustang, it will still be your choice whether to believe in Him or not. It isn't the quality or the quantity of evidence that will convince you...it is your acceptance of it.

We cannot choose our beliefs. Can you choose to believe the moon is made of cheese? We are convinced by some reasons, some are good reasons and some are bad reasons. I believed that god existed for many years then I realized that my belief was based on bad reasons. When I went to look for good reasons I found none. If Jesus showed up to me and I was convinced he was Jesus of the bible I would have no choice but to believe. I would then have to choose if I wanted to follow him or not.

 

[Taken]

Christians tell me that we can know god exists if we will honestly seek him and want to know he exists. Some say he wants a relationship with me. Many say that I will receive faith if I actively and honestly seek him. My question is why then do many Christians seek him honestly and want him to exist but never receive faith from god? Most atheists including me have a lack of belief because we at one time sought out god and god never responded. Many people honestly seek him and never gain a relationship, why?

You answer your own question...

Most atheists including me have a lack of belief because we at one time sought out god and god never responded. .

Atheist - one who lacks a believe in gods.

Personal claim - tried at ONE time to believe in a god.

Sought out God with Trust or Skepticism?

Expected God to Speak to you?

Understands God sends Servants when an Unbeliever Earnestly Seeks God?


A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."

The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."

So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."

To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."

To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"

To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

We cannot choose our beliefs.

You keep repeating that you cannot choose your beliefs.

Then you why are You posting?
Why not have the person who decides your beliefs FOR YOU, come and post FOR YOU?

Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

No, but if he did exist wouldn't that be a jerky thing to do?

what, hope that everyone tests everything and only holds on to what is good? Or pls rephrase it however

Not my definition. That word is used in the passage I quoted. The word all was the main word I was referring to.

well, I see no definition (at all, narf) for "saved" in the passage, 1 Timothy 2:4 Lexicon: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth., but you obviously have some personal definition you are functioning on right now, yes? What is it? Ty

 

[bbyrd009]

You keep repeating that you cannot choose your beliefs.

well to be fair there is a sense in which beliefs are not really chosen, consciously anyway. Could you choose to not believe, right now, that Jesus is Returning to Rapture you away? Why not?
Rhetorical Q btw ok

 

[Episkopos]

We cannot choose our beliefs. Can you choose to believe the moon is made of cheese? We are convinced by some reasons, some are good reasons and some are bad reasons. I believed that god existed for many years then I realized that my belief was based on bad reasons. When I went to look for good reasons I found none. If Jesus showed up to me and I was convinced he was Jesus of the bible I would have no choice but to believe. I would then have to choose if I wanted to follow him or not.

But you are looking for an encounter with God correct not just a generic belief in a Creator?

But God decides these things. Blessed is he who believes and yet has not seen...or encountered.

For most people they must meet God through His people. As in...inasmuch as you did it to the least of these My brethren...

Then it is a spin-off righteousness based on holiness in others.

God knows these things. Not everybody is cut-out for holiness.

 

[bbyrd009]

Where have I not quoted your entire text?

Ah, I guess there's no help for it, you might examine what you choose to respond to v what you do not, though.

 

[Dave L]

I bet you are one of the select few, right? Your god in 1 Tim 2 says he wants all to come to the knowledge of truth, so if you are right then why is god being a jerk and telling everyone that he wants them to be saved?

Only the elect can understand this passage.

 

[Episkopos]

Only the elect can understand this passage.

Please pardon the religious condescension displayed here. Some people have been misguided in their self-importance.

 

[Dave L]

Please pardon the religious condescension displayed here. Some people have been misguided in their self-importance.

It's true. An atheist cannot understand spiritual things or they would not be an atheist, now would they?

 

[Taken]

well to be fair there is a sense in which beliefs are not really chosen, consciously anyway. Could you choose to not believe, right now, that Jesus is Returning to Rapture you away? Why not?
Rhetorical Q btw ok

BTW..."to be fair" implies that something was "unfair".

Belief is a choice. One hears and logically decides to believe it or not.

It has been "fairly" discussed.
Hearing not only is being logically decided in the Carnal Mind...
But more importantly enlightment of Gods Truth is affecting the individuals Heart, and measurements of Faith from God is flowing into the thoughts of the individuals Heart.

Regarding Gods Word...
Any man can stop hearing, and hang on to his carnal knowledge and be content.
And
Any man can continue being enlightened in his heart and continue receiving Faith from God...or not.

Point being...no man can receive measures of Faith and the ultimate gift of Faith-FULLNESS from God, WITHOUT a mans continued effort.

Glory to God,
Taken